Has Laser dropped the 4000?
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1876
Printed Date: 15 Aug 25 at 2:23pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Has Laser dropped the 4000?
Posted By: allanorton
Subject: Has Laser dropped the 4000?
Date Posted: 14 Jun 06 at 3:16pm
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Does anyone on the forum know if Laser have, or are planning to drop the 4000 from their line up? |
Replies:
Posted By: feva_sailor
Date Posted: 14 Jun 06 at 3:18pm
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yes there is a thread on it do a search ------------- |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 14 Jun 06 at 3:20pm
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Well - seems they advertise the class on their website so I guess it's still going ... http://www.lasersailing.com/disp/uk/laser-4000/introduction?i=2396236c5657780b29bc59b9a8870bb8 - http://www.lasersailing.com/disp/uk/laser-4000/introduction? i=2396236c5657780b29bc59b9a8870bb8 Why would you think Laser have dropped the class? Rick ------------- |
Posted By: feva_sailor
Date Posted: 14 Jun 06 at 3:21pm
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yes they have if u do the search it has got it all there ------------- |
Posted By: TimF
Date Posted: 14 Jun 06 at 3:38pm
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still on their website so dont thibk they dropped it ------------- |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 14 Jun 06 at 3:58pm
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Done a seach and I can't see anything ... that says this. Rick
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Posted By: feva_sailor
Date Posted: 14 Jun 06 at 5:11pm
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yep theyve definetly dropped it though it was in y and y magazine ------------- |
Posted By: Offshoretiger
Date Posted: 14 Jun 06 at 5:21pm
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I saw a Laser ad in something not long past and notised that the 4K was not listed. The 2K was there and the pico/vago/stratos and whatever else but no 4K. But I dont know if its dropped officially ------------- ...yesterday I couldnt spell enginner...now I are one!...... |
Posted By: Anna78
Date Posted: 14 Jun 06 at 5:24pm
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No Laser have not dropped it. I thought I would ask them having seen the questions posted. Their response was "We are still selling them well in Europe and some in the UK. It is their headline sporty boat and there are no current plans to stop production" Hope this helps. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 14 Jun 06 at 5:26pm
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The topic was "Very Disappointing", if you want to see it. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: feva_sailor
Date Posted: 14 Jun 06 at 5:29pm
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according to 49ergbr35hsc it has.he posted a tread on it but it has gone.were are u 49ergbr35hsc?
yes rupert it was very dissiponting ------------- |
Posted By: timnoyce
Date Posted: 14 Jun 06 at 5:32pm
I'm sure they get dropped all the time. Its not as if they are light! 
------------- http://www.facebook.com/bearfootdesign - BEARFOOT DESIGN Cherub 2648 - Comfortably Numb |
Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 14 Jun 06 at 6:02pm
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Well, I reckon it's not good business to not include your "headline sporty boat" in the promotional material you distribute in the press, in fact I would be pushing the "headline" boat as much as possible. Looking back, the first steps for other classes being phased out by Laser such as the 5000 and 3000, was to cut funds for promotion, ie less adverts in y&y and other mags and not being included in brochures. What would be a good step for Laser for the class would be to encourage sailors in the 2000 class, ie family partnerships which have been in the class for a while to step up into the 4000, possibly offering good trade in prices for 2000 sailors trading up to a new 4000. In that way, Laser might gain a better hold on the 2nd hand 2000 market and might make a favourable profit, without too many 2000s flooding the market. ------------- Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ - Helensburgh S.C http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine |
Posted By: BBSCFaithfull
Date Posted: 14 Jun 06 at 8:21pm
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I just hope and pray that they give it to vandercraft to make! Would make for a much better allround boat! ------------- Greatfully Sponsored By www.allgoodfun.com Int 14 GBR 1503!! |
Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 14 Jun 06 at 8:34pm
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I just hope that the Laser 4000 class stays healthy and doesn't go the way of other classes. ------------- Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ - Helensburgh S.C http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine |
Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 14 Jun 06 at 11:21pm
| There will no doubt be a day when this class fades but at the moment I can't see anything else which combines its many attributes. Does anybody know any other single trapeze assymetric that carries such a weight range? |
Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 15 Jun 06 at 1:18am
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I really like the 4000 because the equalisation system works and that's why you get such a close fleet racing-wise. The boat is a modern day classic and I reckon that the next few years are going to be crucial to the future of the class. When boats like the Iso and 4000 first appeared, many people said that classes like the 505 and Fireball would fade out of existance. They are still going strong and that's because the designs are good with dedicated class associations, as I feel with the 4000. The Laser 4000 may not be at its peak as it was in the Euro-cup days but the class is still strong. If Laser are using terms such as "headline sporty boat" about the 4000, it can only be a positive if they are going to fully promote the boat in such a way. I tend to disagree with the idea of the design being sold to other boat builders to improve upon because a faster and lighter boat would destroy a key element of the 4000 class, equalised racing. It would divide the class between new and old boats, cause fragmentation and you might aswell design a new boat and wipe the slate clean with the class. I have heard that before launching the 4000 on the market, they had to tone it down because it was faster than the 5000 and would have overshadowed its bigger brother, so that's a basic idea of what modifying the boat could lead to in a performance gap between the original 4000 and a next generation one (and no, I'm not getting mixed up between the RS800 prototype / 49er case) ------------- Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ - Helensburgh S.C http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine |
Posted By: SymBoy
Date Posted: 15 Jun 06 at 12:23pm
I did notice that Laser's latest venture (training at Weymouth) only covered training up to Laser 2000, despite there being some nice piccies of the 4000 in their brochure (sent in the last issue of Y&Y). This does rather conflict with the above statement. As a matter of interest, how many 4000's have been built in the last 3 years? |
Posted By: yellowhammer
Date Posted: 15 Jun 06 at 1:31pm
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20-30 a year was the threshlold for the 3k, but the class was also dead at that stage, which might go in favour of the 4k BTW, if you want to move to an independent builder, write to Y&Y ... I did in Oct 03 and got star letter "Horrorscope for the Laser 3000" ... two weeks later Laser announced at our AGM that they were stopping build (then |
, now Posted By: yellowhammer
Date Posted: 15 Jun 06 at 1:41pm
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PS 30-40 kg off a L4k would be awesome (still equalised but around the new weight) ... the 2D (two design) route can be made work, and we've seen greatly increased interest in Laser 3ks after our move, not the bottom dropping out of the market that some people feared |
Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 15 Jun 06 at 2:08pm
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If a new builder was appointed for the 4000 class, the best thing I could see is reducing build costs to bring the retail price of the class down. You can get very good 4000s for about £2000 to £3,500, if a builder was to sell the boats at about £4,500 to £5,500, I reckon the new boat sails would sky rocket a bit. The possibilty of opening the sail maker but keeping to the strict measurements of the sails would also be a positive step in the right direction ------------- Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ - Helensburgh S.C http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine |
Posted By: yellowhammer
Date Posted: 15 Jun 06 at 2:57pm
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you'd never get a 4k down to £5,500, Jeff VB struggled hard to keep the retail price of the V3000 below £5,000, and chosing North over Sobstad as the sailmaker has pushed it to £5150 ... £6k might be possible for a 4k at a similar quality to the current build (Laser price is £8k), maybe £6.5k - £7k with a lighter hull in higher grade materials (not composite rig), but you lose Laser's marketing leverage wrt sails, Laser govern the rules (in consultation with the CA) but they may well agree to open sails, at the request of the class, if the boat is nearing the end of its product life cycle with them |
Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 15 Jun 06 at 3:33pm
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£6k compared to £8k is still quite a difference. I'm making my point about not knocking any weight off due to the fact that the 4000 still has a relatively strong class and doesn't need to take that action to generate more interest in the class. Say you knock at least about 30kg off the weight of the 4000, add further more weights to the boat for class racing which would complicate issues further, what's to stop people taking all the weights out for club racing and having an unfair advantage. Not all the racing is done on the circuit and it would get down-heartening being stuck behind faster 4000s because they are lighter. I'm playing devil's advocate here because our club used to let us sail 5000s without weights and reckon that if the 5000 went the lighter route as is being suggested, they wouldn't have minded us knocking the correctors out if we had a lighter boat. If we still owned a 5000 and the class was pushing towards lighter boats being built by another builder, forgetting all other facts, the prospect of lighter boats being brought into the class would be enough to push us out into the 49er or I14. You can parallel the same sort of line of thought to Laser 4000 sailors jumping ship from the class to either the RS800 or the 29erXX. Future planning, do you buy a new 4000 which is slightly lighter or buy a faster boat for the same price (second-hand)? ------------- Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ - Helensburgh S.C http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine |
Posted By: SymBoy
Date Posted: 15 Jun 06 at 6:26pm
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As I recall Laser 2 was in a similar situation when 4000 turned up!
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Posted By: m_liddell
Date Posted: 15 Jun 06 at 6:35pm
| Knocking weight off would mess up the weight equalisation which is why the lighter 800 are/were only semi equalised. |
Posted By: carshalton fc
Date Posted: 15 Jun 06 at 9:04pm
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yer it would be great to take lots of weight out of the 4000 but it would mess the strong class racing up. if they were going to do anything to it i would love to see a carbon rig and cheaper sails.
------------- International 14 1503 |
Posted By: yellowhammer
Date Posted: 15 Jun 06 at 10:52pm
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from (little) experience to date, the front runners go for the better performance (lighter) Mk 2 boats, and get top draw racing, but further down the fleet the Mk 2 boats are burried in amongst the Mk 1s ... there's still good racing in the Mk 1s i recon if you can bring the full potential out of a design (balancing performance against longevity) you're on to a long term winner ... settle for second best and you'll be bettered |
Posted By: Contender 541
Date Posted: 16 Jun 06 at 4:52am
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There may be strong commercial reasons why the 4k is (apparently) being dropped, like Laser cannot justify it as a self supporting entity (it does not make money and the rest of the range supports it's production) Has anyone actually asked Laser what they are doing? ------------- When you find a big kettle of crazy it's probably best not to stir it - Pointy Haired Boss Crew on 505 8780 |
Posted By: SymBoy
Date Posted: 16 Jun 06 at 8:39am
Mk1 and Mk2? I thought it was a one design. What's the difference?
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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 16 Jun 06 at 8:50am
Mk1 = original Laser 3000 as built by Performance sailcraft, Mk2 = new vandercraft V3000. Similar to the devlopments in the Blaze fleet arounf 5 years or so ago. It was widely known that the boat was good aside from the rig issues (fully battened main that was a bit of a beast). They worked with Topper to redesign to a semi soft sail which can be feathered. There were other minor changes to the boat (introduction or carbon racks over ally racks and some different rigging options). Aside from that a 'Mk1' Blaze is still as fast as a 'Mk2' (known as the Blaze X). Changes in a one design boat can be positive as long as the class manages them carefully and gets the association membership involved. Thats why 2nd hand Blazes are like rocking horse droppings and there is a waiting list for new boats. Paul ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: yellowhammer
Date Posted: 16 Jun 06 at 12:39pm
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(hypathetically speaking) a move to a new builder is a not to be missed opportunity for a major update ... the new builder would want to make changes anyway, to suit his facilities, pricing, preferred suppliers, etc, so you can't stay SMOD ... if a weight reduction would significantly improve the boat, i'd say go for it while you can we went over and over the "corrected for class racing" debate for 3000s and decided to allow the lighter boats uncorrected ... who'd want to ballast up a flier, it could discourage people from class racing ... we've retained the existing National trophy for "Mk 1" Laser 3000s and have a new overall trophy open to L3Ks and V3000s |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 16 Jun 06 at 1:38pm
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we went over and over the "corrected for class racing" debate for 3000s
and decided to allow the lighter boats uncorrected ... who'd want to
ballast up a flier, it could discourage people from class racing ...
we've retained the existing National trophy for "Mk 1" Laser 3000s and
have a new overall trophy open to L3Ks and V3000s Fair point, with the recent proliferation of manufacturer's one designs, there's bound to be drop out of classes that haven't selled as well as others but are still loved by a few - why not go forward with a new builder - it's your chance (V3000, Blaze X) to make a much better boat as an end product and re-vitalise your class. We're not talking Mirrors, Solos or Oppies here - reasonably radical change isn't going to render thousands of boats 'obsolete' overnight........... be brave and go for it. L4000 built lighter with carbon wings, better foils, carbon boom and slightly easier running controls would be a NICE boat ------------- Feeling sorry for vegans since it became the latest fad to claim you are one |
Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 16 Jun 06 at 3:33pm
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Here's an idea, why don't people just buy an RS800 instead, lightweight, carbon rig, twin wire and a little bit cheaper secondhand than the proposed new 4000? The 4000 is a good boat and has been structured in a certain way which still defines it appart from the 800. By the ideas which have been floating about, people are trying to make the 4000 aspire to be an 800 which it doesn't need to do. ------------- Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ - Helensburgh S.C http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine |
Posted By: carshalton fc
Date Posted: 16 Jun 06 at 3:40pm
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there is no need the people who are coming up with the crazy idea's probily dont sail 4k's and anyways the 4000 doesnt need a make over the class is very strong, it is the only single trapeze class with weight equilation! it would be nice for it to have a make over but it doesnt need one cos it is a great boat anyway. ------------- International 14 1503 |
Posted By: yellowhammer
Date Posted: 16 Jun 06 at 4:45pm
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hey, don't get shirty CFC ... you're worse than the Osprey crowd don't be too complacent either
two-up in a contender ? |
Posted By: carshalton fc
Date Posted: 16 Jun 06 at 6:46pm
sorry but it is my class and i would prefer it to stay the way it is, jsut maybe sails that are cheaper. na i took BNS out in my 4k, was great fun blasting around. ------------- International 14 1503 |
Posted By: yellowhammer
Date Posted: 16 Jun 06 at 10:46pm
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"What would you do?"
You saying wouldn't change a thing KFC ?
PS Wouldn't mind a 4K myself some day |
Posted By: BBSCFaithfull
Date Posted: 17 Jun 06 at 11:04pm
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Lets face it the boaty is extremely outdated. It could do with a major overhaul. And just general rule changes
------------- Greatfully Sponsored By www.allgoodfun.com Int 14 GBR 1503!! |
Posted By: yellowhammer
Date Posted: 17 Jun 06 at 11:41pm
in its current form i wouldn't shell out for a new one, but with a serious makeover and the strong 'adult' class i probably would, especially if it was a more open OD and not a SMOD ... i can't be alone ... the 29er's the main alternative for me, and it's a lovely boat, but the youth dominated class racing scene puts me off with the new boat scene becoming more and more like the car market, all SMOD classes probably face a transition to OD at some stage, with some very difficult decisions, it's a bit do or die ... the 4K definitely has potential to live on as a classic in the right guise anyway i won't be on the market for a few years ... i've two under 5's who have to find their independence in Oppies first ... be interesting to see what happens to the 4K (and what else comes along) in the meantime |
Posted By: m_liddell
Date Posted: 17 Jun 06 at 11:44pm
Excellent post. The 4000 should not be turned into an RS800. What would be the point? The fact the 4000 was single wire was the whole reason it existed! What has happened to the 4000, 5000, ISO and most of the 1st gen high performance SMODs is that while they were once near the cuttinge edge, they are now out of date and faster more refined SMODs are available. People looking for high performance will usually trade up to the next SMOD and the class which slowly die. I'm surpised at what happened to the 3000 though. It was/is an excellent boat to learn trapeze asy. sailing so I'm not sure why it didn't sell so well. |
Posted By: Wave Rider
Date Posted: 18 Jun 06 at 9:45pm
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4000 is a cool boat.... although it's not the only weight equalised single trap.... the Iso is very similar... doesn't look as stylish though i have to say. ------------- -[Franko]- Chew Valley Lake Sailing Club RS600 933 |
Posted By: 29er397
Date Posted: 18 Jun 06 at 9:50pm
To be honest the weight equaliziation on an iso isn't that great, the 4k equalisation is a much better system isn't it? not knocking the iso, i think it is a great boat!
 ------------- http://www.kielderwatersc.org - Kielder Water Sailing Club |