'what would you do with the 5k if you co
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1828
Printed Date: 15 Aug 25 at 5:23pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: 'what would you do with the 5k if you co
Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Subject: 'what would you do with the 5k if you co
Date Posted: 03 Jun 06 at 5:15pm
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Sail it if I still had one............................................ ------------- Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ - Helensburgh S.C http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine |
Replies:
Posted By: gonzo
Date Posted: 03 Jun 06 at 5:18pm
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So you took it literally and did start a topic. Well i do think the addition if a carbon mast pole boom would be a start then the racks then a lighter hull. Hmmmmm so many more options ------------- Go Big or Go home or sail a 49er!!! |
Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 03 Jun 06 at 5:18pm
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Id take out all that lead they have hidden in there. What do you mean theres no lead? They actualy build boats THAT heavy?  ------------- |
Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 03 Jun 06 at 5:28pm
| I'd go straight for the weight loss on the hull. Then maybe some rig development (sails, carbon mast). |
Posted By: les5269
Date Posted: 03 Jun 06 at 5:31pm
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Leave it as it is and build them cheaper! why wreck a good boat ------------- 49er 531 & 5000 5025 and a mirror(now gone to mirror heaven)! http://www.grafham.org/" rel="nofollow - Grafham water Sailing Club The greatest inland sailing in the country |
Posted By: gonzo
Date Posted: 03 Jun 06 at 5:35pm
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Not the whole fleet just a one off mean machine how fast will it really go. I reckon you could get 30knots+ ------------- Go Big or Go home or sail a 49er!!! |
Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 03 Jun 06 at 5:36pm
Spot on Les, reckon new 5ks for 4 grand would shift out the boatyards really quickly...............Anyway, we never used our weights for h'cap racing, and got a little creative with a sander.................... ------------- Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ - Helensburgh S.C http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine |
Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 03 Jun 06 at 5:43pm
The foiler moth record is currently 26.3knots The 9ers seem to hit a bit of a barier around 20knots, with only short bursts above it ------------- |
Posted By: gonzo
Date Posted: 03 Jun 06 at 5:51pm
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Hmm interesting i though the 9ers would be a bit more that 20. Any idea what the 18footers reach. How could you get a 5000 to go quicker? More downwind kite area Is it a case of hull shape ------------- Go Big or Go home or sail a 49er!!! |
Posted By: les5269
Date Posted: 03 Jun 06 at 5:58pm
Go out when it's windy we took one out in 48knots that was fun ! As for the 49er it bears off in the gusts so the speed doesn't increase by much with the kite up. I hear they can top 20 knots on a 2 sail reach a lot easier tho haven't done it myself yet ------------- 49er 531 & 5000 5025 and a mirror(now gone to mirror heaven)! http://www.grafham.org/" rel="nofollow - Grafham water Sailing Club The greatest inland sailing in the country |
Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 03 Jun 06 at 6:35pm
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Its all wind dependant, we had a car pace us doing 30mph but it was in about 25knots of wind speed ------------- Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ - Helensburgh S.C http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 03 Jun 06 at 6:51pm
48konts - dream on ... ------------- |
Posted By: les5269
Date Posted: 03 Jun 06 at 6:53pm
Ah the joys of lake sailing ! flat water lots of wind ------------- 49er 531 & 5000 5025 and a mirror(now gone to mirror heaven)! http://www.grafham.org/" rel="nofollow - Grafham water Sailing Club The greatest inland sailing in the country |
Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 03 Jun 06 at 6:59pm
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LES DID SAIL IN 48 KNOTS!..........THAT'S WHY WE CALL HIM LEDGE, SHORT FOR LEGEND.........PHOTOS TO PROVE IT AS WELL... ------------- Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ - Helensburgh S.C http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine |
Posted By: simsy
Date Posted: 03 Jun 06 at 7:15pm
| I can imagine maybe the odd 48knot gust, but a constant (what is that? a force 10) Yes, yes it is. I think not. |
Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 03 Jun 06 at 8:02pm
| I think the limiting factor to outright speed is drag rather than lack of power. So you would probably need to downsize the rig to see enourmous speeds. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 03 Jun 06 at 8:16pm
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Well, If I wanted to make an improved mass market two string boat from the 5000 manufactring kit I'd do a proressive update.
First I'd throw the existing rig components away and use a 49er rig. Its much the same sort of size and reasonably developed. Then I'd throw the existing foils away and use somthing handy - 49er ones might be about the right size. Tube wings are a pain: better to have solid ones for a mass market boat. Think we can source them from McKay boats in NZ who have something reasonable off the shelf. Finally the hull. Well everything's got to have a Bethwaite hull design hasn't it. I bet Julian has got some drawings that are close enough - maybe even a mould or two available. So, a new name might be nice. for a super 5000. I calculate there's 0.457% of the original left. And Bathwaites done the hull so it had better be an 'ername. So as its 5000 powered with .457 of the orginal how about the 5000 ^ 0.457 er. |
Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 03 Jun 06 at 8:22pm
Either your revising too Jim or youve put way too much thought into this ------------- |
Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 03 Jun 06 at 8:43pm
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How can you make that assumption that Les didn't sail in a Force 10, Les finish this argument, get the pictures up ------------- Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ - Helensburgh S.C http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine |
Posted By: les5269
Date Posted: 03 Jun 06 at 8:57pm
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http://www.intersail.co.uk/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1657&PN=1&TPN=4 - http://www.intersail.co.uk/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1657&am p;PN=1&TPN=4
------------- 49er 531 & 5000 5025 and a mirror(now gone to mirror heaven)! http://www.grafham.org/" rel="nofollow - Grafham water Sailing Club The greatest inland sailing in the country |
Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 03 Jun 06 at 9:19pm
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Stop picking on my mate Les.......... ------------- Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ - Helensburgh S.C http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine |
Posted By: simsy
Date Posted: 03 Jun 06 at 9:23pm
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Yup, looks pretty windy. Not convinced its a force 10, mind. I know a 5k is robust but, gale force winds are known for structural damage, see my point. |
Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 03 Jun 06 at 9:34pm
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Yeah but if the wind metres are reading 48knots, you can hardly argue with that... ------------- Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ - Helensburgh S.C http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine |
Posted By: les5269
Date Posted: 03 Jun 06 at 9:43pm
 ------------- 49er 531 & 5000 5025 and a mirror(now gone to mirror heaven)! http://www.grafham.org/" rel="nofollow - Grafham water Sailing Club The greatest inland sailing in the country |
Posted By: les5269
Date Posted: 03 Jun 06 at 9:45pm
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What happens when it goes wrong ! ------------- 49er 531 & 5000 5025 and a mirror(now gone to mirror heaven)! http://www.grafham.org/" rel="nofollow - Grafham water Sailing Club The greatest inland sailing in the country |
Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 03 Jun 06 at 9:47pm
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Les, when are we going kite boarding again??? ------------- Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ - Helensburgh S.C http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine |
Posted By: jpbuzz591
Date Posted: 03 Jun 06 at 9:48pm
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Oops ------------- Jp Indoe Contender 518 Buzz591 Chew Valley Sailing club Bristol |
Posted By: les5269
Date Posted: 03 Jun 06 at 9:59pm
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think the wording was b**ger ------------- 49er 531 & 5000 5025 and a mirror(now gone to mirror heaven)! http://www.grafham.org/" rel="nofollow - Grafham water Sailing Club The greatest inland sailing in the country |
Posted By: 5420
Date Posted: 03 Jun 06 at 10:06pm
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i rember that day it was so much fun i think i toke my 4.7 out that day i think or that may have been the week after it was so windy thow
i was there he did do it
------------- |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 04 Jun 06 at 2:07am
You *can* argue with anything... You may lose, but you can argue [grin] I must say I'd expect to see rather more action in the trees in the backround for F10. That's branches falling off and trees uprooted territory, but those trees don't look as if they're bending spectacularly in the wind. Th lake doesn't seem cut up too much either. The most I've ever sailed in is F8, which is pretty close to unmanageable in anything, I can't say that looks that windy and I can't imagine even being able to rig the boat in F10. Could be your wind gauge isn't well calibrated. They're particularly prone to over read when sited on buildings. |
Posted By: les5269
Date Posted: 04 Jun 06 at 9:08am
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2 small points guys : 1 I was out there so the 48 knots is what I was told when I got back in by the people onshore watching ! so yes we are reliant on other people and a wind gauge 2 It was bloody windy and scary!!But it was a good sail There is a sequence of photos somewhere on the Net but I can't find them at the moment Carsharlton has one on his pc (the one that hurt !) ------------- 49er 531 & 5000 5025 and a mirror(now gone to mirror heaven)! http://www.grafham.org/" rel="nofollow - Grafham water Sailing Club The greatest inland sailing in the country |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 04 Jun 06 at 9:53am
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I have no doubt it was windy but ... Storm Force 10 = Very high waves with long overhanging crests. The resulting foam, in great patches, is blown in dense white streaks along the direction of the wind. On the whole the surface of the sea takes on a white appearance. The 'tumbling' of the sea becomes heavy and shock-like. Visibility affected. As JimC points out the trees and water in that pic don't live up to your perception ... also the position of the boat.
------------- |
Posted By: Prince Buster
Date Posted: 04 Jun 06 at 11:41am
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okay it might not have been a steady 10 but the description you gave
there rick wouldn't really apply to a lake so much....there's no way a
big enough fetch to get "overhanging crests" and I doubt the water on
the pond in the picture could ever be "tumbling"..........
------------- international moth - "what what?" |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 04 Jun 06 at 11:48am
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Sorry, i did it again. |
Posted By: feva_sailor
Date Posted: 04 Jun 06 at 3:14pm
read before u post!it was a lake mate ------------- |
Posted By: gonzo
Date Posted: 04 Jun 06 at 4:36pm
What did you say feva sailor. I know im not the best at English but im having hard time understanding what you meant. Doesnt matter what its blowing becuase if you sailing on a lake its always going to be a lake. ------------- Go Big or Go home or sail a 49er!!! |
Posted By: Prince Buster
Date Posted: 04 Jun 06 at 6:39pm
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the kid was advising rick to read previous posts before he posts
something cos in this case the fact that it was a lake made a lot of
difference......i thought that was one of his less ambiguous ones lol! And if they say it was 48kts then who are we to argue with them? Dodgy anaenometer or not it read that and it probably was......also the pictures might have been taken when the wind had died a bit and not actually looked how it was. ------------- international moth - "what what?" |
Posted By: timnoyce
Date Posted: 04 Jun 06 at 7:02pm
Hmmmm sound advice there from a forum newbie to someone who obviously knows what they are talking about.... How big is the lake in question? I sail at Foremark Reservoir which isn't exactly huge and we've had extreme white caps which get blown up to give a misty appearance to the whole water. Sailed in it... got nailed... came back in to fix the boat and that wasn't a force 10 i don't think! Anyway, I'm calling nobody a liar here, Respect to Les for taking the barge out and respect to it for standing up to the punishment! More than i can say for the laser 2 i was sailing at the time!!  ------------- http://www.facebook.com/bearfootdesign - BEARFOOT DESIGN Cherub 2648 - Comfortably Numb |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 04 Jun 06 at 7:16pm
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All I am saying is that that picture dosn't look like storm F10 to me ... As Tim says good for you for enjoying a good breeze ... but in 48Knots I would expect even a lake to be covered in white caps, trees getting thrashed perhaps a couple falling etc ... Rick PS - here is a photo of a storm 10 on the sea - I know a lake with a smaller fetch would have less chance to build but a F10 would just foam up the surface throgh friction,
------------- |
Posted By: 29er397
Date Posted: 04 Jun 06 at 8:22pm
force 10 or not, looks fun!!!!!!!!
------------- http://www.kielderwatersc.org - Kielder Water Sailing Club |
Posted By: Prince Buster
Date Posted: 04 Jun 06 at 8:26pm
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exactly mate!
------------- international moth - "what what?" |
Posted By: combat wombat
Date Posted: 04 Jun 06 at 8:40pm
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I was sailing on Monday at Derwent SC, we got hit by a 40 knot gust which flattened everyone. The waves from it were big, even on a lake inland. The spray was kicking off the tops of the waves and hurt when it hit the face. We sat it out ontop of the upturned hull and waited till it went away. That picture shows 35 knots absolutely max! I've sailed in a force 10, out in the Atlantic on a 40ft carbon racing cat. It was easily the scariest thing I have ever done, as we hit 23 knots under storm jib only, running with the wind. I will never, ever repeat the experience, and I would certainly never do it in a dinghy. ------------- B14 GBR 772 |
Posted By: fizzicist
Date Posted: 04 Jun 06 at 10:19pm
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That pic was no doubt windy, however that is no F10. At Glossop we usually get a decent breeze to say the least. The most I've ever sailed in was about 30 knots and the water looked considerably more disturbed than that. Assuming that shot was from Grafham, the water would surely be more cut up than that in 48 knots. No criticism, but to be quite honest, but I've sailed on waters more disturbed than that in a F5. Doesn't look like a 10 basically. ------------- Not all chemicals are bad. Without chemicals such as hydrogen and oxygen, for example, there would be no way to make water, a vital ingredient in beer. |
Posted By: simsy
Date Posted: 04 Jun 06 at 10:59pm
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Well that concludes my side of the argument. |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 05 Jun 06 at 7:12am
The point is that you're not really sailing in 48 knots just because an anerometer flicks to 48 knots. That's (I think) the "peak gust speed" and it's about 40% higher than the real wind speed - that is, the average. I'm pretty sure that when you speak of Force 10, you're talking of an average. So a real F10 would actually see gusts in the 70 knot range, not the 48 knot range, and if it was flicking to 48, the wind was really in the low 30s. An example was when Finian set the world speed record on a board in 2004, the wind was recorded as "Windspeed : 30.0 knots Windgusts : 50.0 knots" Considering that the wind's power rises by the square, a real F10 would be extremely nasty compared to something that's gusting 48. I think they had F10 in the '98 Hobart and the conditions looked horrifying, vastly worse than they are in a "normal" Hobart when you just spend a day or two messing about under storm trysail and storm jib. BUT many kudos for going out in that stuff, it looks damn hairy to sail a skiff type in, especially a production skiff type which doesn't have the luxury of changing down to a smaller rig. Very cool! How did the main end up there? Was it taken down and rolled up in an earlier capsize? It's impressive that the rig stood up to it although I suppose there's less load than in a flogging kite. |
Posted By: tack'ho
Date Posted: 07 Jun 06 at 1:07pm
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I agree with all the above, not a constant F-10 but you would'nt catch me taking a L5000 out in it. Muchos kahnos mon amigos ------------- I might be sailing it, but it's still sh**e! |
Posted By: gonzo
Date Posted: 07 Jun 06 at 6:42pm
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not sure if there are any skiff type boats you would catch me out in if the wind was anoything above a 6 thats just insane expensive and potentially a lot of fun but also pain. Then again i wouldnt mind if i didnt have to foot the bill ------------- Go Big or Go home or sail a 49er!!! |
Posted By: 29er397
Date Posted: 07 Jun 06 at 9:14pm
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29er, its underpowered enough and with the low freeboard makes for a hell of a ride!!!!
------------- http://www.kielderwatersc.org - Kielder Water Sailing Club |
Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 08 Jun 06 at 8:15am
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We tried to race the 49er in above 30knots, probably 35 through the gusts, did a lot of swimming but when the boat was upright she was flying, scared me a lot and had the crew thinking we were going to die and never wanting to set foot on the boat again. When we were upright, we heard a loud bang when we were coming out of a tack and I looked up and thought we'd blown the top section but it was just the jib battens shattering. We found it really hard in those conditions, couldn't race but the boat stood up well against the abuse. If we were sailing a 5000, reckon it would have been up to getting round the course. All races were abandoned from that reggatta but if a 49er can take that abuse, reckon an over-engineered 5000 would stand up to quite a bit more. On the topic about the wind-speed claim by Les not matching the conditions apparent over the water, I found Grafham pretty deceptive when we were recently sailing a 4000 up there. We had a constant 5 coming through with gusts reaching 6s but the water did seem very flat. Judging it by sea-state, it was comparible to the sea-state of winds of force 3 at the coastal venues I usually sail at and it was relatively flat. ------------- Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ - Helensburgh S.C http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine |
Posted By: gonzo
Date Posted: 08 Jun 06 at 8:48am
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Think i sailed in about 4ft sweel on a 9er here in dubai and off the back of those waves i think the helm was neally off the kick bars on the wings as i told him to keep moving back as the pole slides in and luckily out the wave in front. Flat water i wouldnt mind but waves is difficult stuff. I agree a 29er on Rutland or even Portland harbour would be ok in 30+ but not in waves ------------- Go Big or Go home or sail a 49er!!! |
Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 08 Jun 06 at 8:53am
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MPS's faired well at that reggatta I mentioned, was racing fine and we were getting big swell. Was really impressed with the MPS from that day onwards, has to be one of my favourite boats. Think it was one of the only boats not to have to que up outside the sail-makers on the Monday morning ------------- Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ - Helensburgh S.C http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine |
Posted By: 29er397
Date Posted: 08 Jun 06 at 11:53am
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Why not a 29er in waves? they do ok, a fair amount of water comes over the bow but you'd have to be pretty unlucky to bury it properly. We snapped the nylon fitting on the kicker in a F6 gusting F7, would have been fine if we hadnt gone for that little bit of extra tension but that is the only wind related damage we have had. The boat really does fly in the breezy stuff, even in waves ------------- http://www.kielderwatersc.org - Kielder Water Sailing Club |
Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 08 Jun 06 at 12:26pm
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Same with the 49er. The low rocker on the 9er and big rig make her suseptible to pitching the nose in, but we haven't done it. It's okay if you know how to deal with waves. ------------- Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ - Helensburgh S.C http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine |
Posted By: m_liddell
Date Posted: 08 Jun 06 at 12:47pm
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Agreed, great fun in a blow! Still, I have found it a dog upwind in waves/shot chop, especially compared with an RS800. |
Posted By: 29er397
Date Posted: 08 Jun 06 at 6:24pm
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When it isnt blowiing a gale then the whole boat can be a dog! When you are overpowered and it starts to plane upwind it is fine, just trim it so the 'nuckle' of the bow is just kissing the tops of the waves. in short chop it can be a bit of a pain, especially when its not planing. also you do have to bear off a little to really get it going. ------------- http://www.kielderwatersc.org - Kielder Water Sailing Club |
Posted By: bert
Date Posted: 09 Jun 06 at 11:06am
These photos show what a force 10 looks like after it has had two days head start & a 150 mile run up,the ship concerned is appox 150 feet long & 40 feet beam to beam,from normal sea level to the radio room roof ( the red bit) 65 / 70 feet.the waveheight was a avg of about 8 meters with the odd 12 meter throw in for fun.   ------------- Phantom 1181 AC-227 IC 304 blaze / halo 586 |
Posted By: skiffyskiferson
Date Posted: 09 Jun 06 at 12:38pm
lokks quite entertaining, somewhat similar to that pretty awful film the perfect storm. now someone needs to launch an m-x-ray off the back of that and have a nice quick spinny run!
 or not! |
Posted By: hurricane
Date Posted: 09 Jun 06 at 1:22pm
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i thought we decided the 3rd one is a fake! ------------- lifes to short to sail slow boats! RIP Olympic Tornado 1976-2007 |
Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 09 Jun 06 at 1:25pm
The 3rd pic is the original the fake pic your refering too was based on I believe ------------- |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 09 Jun 06 at 1:46pm
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Isn't it wave size an shape that's more important than
waves per se? My Cherub used to hate a short steep Solent slop, but revel in the Irish sea waves in Cardigan bay... |