The V3000 made its debut at the first class meet of the year, at Carsington SC on 13-14 May. There are more (amateurish) pictures in the race report, click the Carsington topic in Recent Articles on the left of the homepage at:

http://www.3000class.org.uk - www.3000class.org.uk

Photo Credit: Mike Shaw, http://www.pixelviews.co.uk - www.pixelviews.co.uk

I helmed and crewed races on the Saturday, and other class members got the chance to test her out, racing and fun sailing, on the Sunday. General concensus:

Sorted!

First of all, Well done to the 3000 class!!  It looks as though you've filled the boats real potential and developed what looks to be a racing machine! 

However, would i be right in looking at the kite and thinking that its somewhat bigger......?? (I already knew that the jib was going to be bigger)

I seem to remember certain 3000 sailors saying that a well sailed L3000 would be able to keep up with a not so well sailed V3000.  With a 30kg weight drop and bigger sails, is this comment still valid, without going to the extremes of having olympic class sailors in the L3000 against average club sailors in the V3000??
And is the class association willing to volunteer a new handicap number to be raced with for the V3000?  Or will we have to wait for a few years of handicap bandit racing to pass untill the RYA finally alter it??

Again though, well done! It looks really nice!

Doug

the kite is taller and narrower, with a flatter cut, with the intention of making it better suited to club sailing with close reaches ... it's actually a slightly smaller overall area

i was surprised how little difference the larger jib made upwind (we had one long tack paired off against a Laser 3000 ... the boat could point higher, good for starts (where the Laser 3000  with the Hyde sails used to drop down onto higher pointing boats) but it slowed down more than it gained in pointing

the jib worked better freed off a touch where it did very gradually overhaul the L3K (with a 30kg lighter crew), the battened shape really driving ... the jib really is a thing of beauty (by North)

we had a fair bit of mast rake dialled in (our top club sailors settings) and the boat was perfectly balanced ... off-the boom sheeting loads were very light and it was easy to oversheet the main ... the boom about 6" off centre seemed to give best speed/pointing

the most impressive thing was the accelleration with the lighter hull ... the relationship between hull weight and sail area seems spot on ... it's a pedigree race boat now

the Laser 3000 SMOD design struggled to compete on handicap in anything less than a F7 ... below F3 it lost out big time to hiking boats, and from F3 to F6 to more highly developed trapeze boats ... the V3000 (and to an extent a Laser 3000 with the new sails) will definitely redress that balance

the PY question is TBD but at the moment the class wouldn't recommend a separate PY ... if the V3000 consistently beats the latest generation Fireballs we may reconsider, and Ken Kershaw at the RYA has offered to list Laser 3000s and V3000s separately if this is the case

can't wait to see a good light-medium weight crew in a V3000 at a major event in a F4-5, it'll be a flying machine

the only downside is that, with this build quality, demand could outstrip supply very quickly!

... and the V3000 only won 2 of the 6 races at Carsington, tactics in a shifty F2 conditions and error free handling having far more impact

could be a very different story in planing conditions though, especially transitional displacement/planing sailing where the lower weight will bring it up onto the plane sooner, which could build 50-100 metres or more over the course of a race

Indeed.. yellowhammer's laser 3k - despite a total lack of slot gasket, a borrowed wooden tiller, a shark bite in the centre board and numerous rope tangles (crew incompetence I'm sure) still beat the V3000 in two races ..... just! 

Meanwhile we have the V3000 at Carsington for the next week or so; so if anyone wants a demo, please drop me a line or ask Vandercraft direct ... though the temptation is not to share it at all . 

Unfortunately the weather for the next week looks like being c*#p.  Sooo frustrating - but if anyone's up for a sail in 20knots and pouring rain, I'll see what can be sorted.

yup you're right.  Shall just have to eat extra chips for lunch or take a crew with me.

I'd been hoping to single hand the thing and see if I can sheet the main off the boom (same hand as tiller?) whilst looking after the spinny with the spare hand and trimming the jib with a free foot or something.

need one of those tricky off the boom cleats from a swift solo

main problem on first single handing attempt at the weekend was the thing accelerates so quickly you have to keep your back foot well braced to avoid flying off the back when the gusts hit (and saturday's gusts were not big). 

For man used to SMODs this thing is LIGHT.

Well it ain't lovingly hand-built cherub light I'm sure.  The spars are all aluminium for one thing but:

Hull weight is down from laser's 79kg to around 50kg plus the sails have a lot more film and a lot less fibre in them; the battened jib probably a bit heavier than the old dacron one.  All the fittings (and there aren't many) are Harken air blocks and about 3kg of centre turret, cleat and block are gone. Even the rudder stock has been pared down.

Maybe 65kg all up compared to the laser 3000's 97kg?

thats a BIG weight save. surely it deserves a lower PY

It does look very cool. I would agree with NickA that it could do with a solo swift style boom cleat to make it easier to single hand.

I may have to try and get a demo when I manage to get some free time

i asked the RYA if they had a PY calculator, but it's entirely down to club returns ... they have suggested putting the V3000 on a TN (trial number), but returns are likely to be too low to be statistically valid anyway to begin with

we're racing V3000s and Laser 3000s together in class racing, with no adjustments, so i'm not sure why the class would we recommend an adjustment for club racing?

the Laser 3000 has stood still as a SMOD for 10 years, while other classes have marched on with creeping improvements to stay ahead of the field, and the L3K wasn't exactly a star performer in handicap series in the first place!

clubs are entitled to give it a CN (club number) if they wish ... during the trials at Wilsonian SC, some members asked for it to be re-rated, and Tony Hunt who trialled the boat would have been happy with a 3% adjustment

1000 from 1030 would have put the V3000 into the fast handicap fleet for winter sailing, and in the right conditions Tony was beating L4Ks on the water ... but Tony argued he'd beaten the same boats on the water in similar conditions in his L3K, and the sailing committee upheld the current 1030 handicap (for now)

two V3000s are on order from members at Wilsonian ... speaks for itself!!!

Sometimes you post and then think.....why?

Come on Chris what was it you wanted to say

On my 29er I have just fitted a standard Harken swivel cleat on the boom using a u-shaped bracket (actually RC plane aluminium under-carriage given a little attention with a big hammer) and put an auto-ratchet on the transom hawse.  Works well.  I guess if you went the extra and got the holt ball bearing swivel cleat it would be even better but still works fine for me.

Next time I am near my boat I will try and get a piccy of it.

65Kg all up would be optimistically Cherub light!  I think Andy P's boat is 70Kg all up with about 5kg of lead.

It's got less hull material (low freeboard and not very wide), smaller sails, fewer battens, smaller spars and fewer wires than a cherub.  But maybe the claimed 50kg hull is a bit optimistic.

I can see we're going to have to weigh it - a set of bathroom scales and two people should do the trick.

Blobby ... like your idea, send pictures.

I assume you mean one of these!

I dooubt it because when you move fore and aft you could not use the cleat. And of course the fact that is Holt not Harken. Maybe something more like this:

No flack from here.....

nor from me as it happens

like i said, clubs can correct it in the meantime, if they need to, by treating it as any other one-off design and giving it a TN (trial number)

the TN is then corrected progressively over a number of weeks, then a CN (club number) is assigned when it's been rated across a range of conditons (not sure how crew skill is factored out, but there are formula on the RYA website)

this would then feed into club PY returns, and when the RYA/class has some data to work with we can recommend an RN (recommended number)

as the Laser 3000 isn't an international or even a national class, we don't have a primary or secondary yardstick (PY or SY)

at least, i think that's how the system's supposed to work (if clubs operated the PY returns system properly ... as if they didn't have enough to do)

what i'm saying is you can't blame the class ... all V3000s are a quite strict one design in their own right, and we're more than happy to exploit any loopholes in the law in the meantime!!!

(edited as an afterthought to say nice to see you've come out of your shell chris!)

Lets not start the PY bandit discussion ...

As Jim has pointed out previously in a championship fleet the PY spread is about 200; sounds believeable to me but Jim - how did you work this out?

Anyway - PY racing is not to be taken too seriously; it's a bit of fun; yes some boats have an advantagein  certain conditions and some boat developments may give a temporary advantage but the system should catch up if returns are done and of course the system allows for subjective changes of PY by the race management anyway.

If you really want to win a handicap race I think you are missing the point ... oh, and if you look at the results of the big handicap events it's often very good sailors who win ...

Rick

... exactly, but maybe development in one design classes would stagnate without the loopholes?

after all, IF YOU CAN'T BEAT THEM ... JOIN THEM! (now i'm showing my age)

(edited because that was a follow-on from Bruce, but Rick got in there first)

There's the flack!  Heh!

My Virefly should go well, then, with its 97rules cherub rig and trapeze, still sailing off 1162...

As has been said many times - don't blame the classes, blame the clubs who won't change numbers and don't make returns! When I was doing it for our club, it used to take an evening trawling through race results to come up with the figures. Every now and again I'd see a class that maybe should have a small change (the Blaze with the new rig was certainly easier to sail and so quicker round the course, but we didn't have enough of them out to judge properly, really, so some estimation had to be used) but mainly we had a good spread of different classes doing well, which meant the figures were working.

If the V3000 wins every handicap race it enters, then there is something needing changing. If not, then allow the PY system to do its job.

Personally, if the V3000 came out with a PY of 1000 I'd be more than happy. 

Winning on handicap isn't the issue (all you gain is ugly trophies), but going fast and being at the front of the fleet both feel rather good.

Truth is, handicap or not, in most conditions the skiffy trapeze-equipped Laser 3000 had trouble getting round the course quicker than a Laser 2000, which has seats in it. And that's embarassing.

Race several 2k's every week and never had that problem, Nick, though I did get a fright when I came up against Rob Burridge's 2k at Langstone last year - he never seemed to drop off the plane on the run - not the usual 2k experience! With the V3k it'll be 4k-hunting on the menu (but only in trapezing/planing winds, before you all demand a 910 PY. In lighter stuff 1030 will still be tough enough -our myriad Cherub contributors should sympathise with this situation).

what's this? ... three 3000 class sailors on topic now ... we'll soon be overtaking the Cherubs in the vocality stakes (and on the water too?)

no probs ... 3000 helms need a sence of humour and a thick skin (and something to keep all the spray out of their eyes) 

anyway, having got all the PY stuff out of the way, what's the concensus on the look?

hulls will be single colour, and spinnys will "come in any colour so long as its black", this year anyway

should we put strawberry stickers all over the hull for some real street cred?

Chris 249 was spot on in his earlier post. Its a cop out to blame clubs - most use the PY to avoid controvesy about changes. Pointless arguments (like "my Enterprise should be 40 pts slower but his 505 should be twenty quicker)  are best avoided. So if any class makes substantial changes, that class is best placed to and therefore should make a recomendation to clubs and their own members about an appropriate new number.

The Vortex class did that when adding an asymmetric (despite zero help or guidance from the RYA who didn't even respond to letters and emails on the subject). Or are some of you suggesting that the Vortex should still sail off 965 instead of the 930 the class suggests. (It's possible to justify it - after all they've added weight, added windage, increased the chances of a capsize there's no advantage in a F1/2 or in a F6 etc). Hmm, maybe they should start sailing off 965 again after all!

hector, you may have missed the above earlier on in the thread ... at the moment the class has insufficient data to make a recommendation, and we will classify the V3000 separately from the Laser 3000 if warranted, so as not to disadvantage Laser 3000s

from early indications, the changes will make the underpowered and rather uncompetitive in most conditions less than F4-5 (i.e. 90% of races) Laser 3000 very much more competitive, but not break the bank

Looking at the relative performance of the Laser 3000 and V3000, and taking into account how the classic Laser 3000 performed in handicap racing:

Force 1-2, Displacement Sailing: Lighter weight causes very marginal reduction in wetted surface area (no change to hull profile), and the V3000 accelerates quickly in gusts, but has less momentum to carry speed through lulls/holes. New sails may prove to give some advantage, but the low rig is a disadvantage. The classic Laser 3000 was not at all competitive in these conditions, and the V3000 will be marginally better but still not perform to handicap, as with most trapeze boats.

Force 3, Transitional Planing, Not Fully Extended on Trapeze: The lighter hull of the V3000 promotes earlier and faster planing downwind, and maximum advantage can be gained from gusts. Upwind speed will also be improved with the lower weight. Sail improvements will also contribute, but the sailplan is still relatively underpowered. The V3000 is just on the verge of planing up-wind. The classic Laser 3000 tended not to pick up in these conditions, and was not competitive against most hyking or trapezing classes. The V3000 should be on a level with other single trapeze boats.

Force 4, Planing, Fully Extended on Trapeze: The lower weight of the V3000 causes the boat to skip along the surface, rather than ploughing the plane, increasing speed. The new sails and the jib in particular also have better shape/power. A good, light-weight crew may be able to keep it planing upwind (unproven). The Laser 3000 was just starting to become competitive, the V3000 will be better.

Force 5+, Fully Extended but becoming Overpowered: The lower weight makes the V3000 a bit friskier than the Laser 3000 downwind, and it's still probably a bit faster. Good middle-weight crews should be planing up-wind (unproven). The Laser 3000 became competitive about the time the wind reached gale force, being underpowered and having a low centre of pressure on the sails. Hull form and sail plan are more influential than weight under these conditions, so the V should be similar performance.

I don't know what percentage of sailing is done in each of these wind ranges in UK waters ... with low freeboard and lots of freezing spray in winter, the 3000 tends to be a summer boat, so probably 70% F1-3, 25% F3-5, and 5% F5+. The V3000 should sail well to its handicap on 30% of sailing days, just like other trapeze dinghies. The Laser 3000 only really sparkled in a gale (but is fun)

The Vortex has low-drag hulls and, as a odd sort of hybrid dinghy/cat thingy-m-jig, already performed quite well to handicap across a wide range of conditions, including 'sub-planing'. Bolting on another sail obviously has a marked effect right across the wind spectrum.

Our aim was to make the V3000 more competitive at lower wind speeds, to address the handicap shortfalls of the Laser 3000. Hopefully the new sails will improve the Laser 3000 somewhat too. We've got a topic running on the website http://www.3000class.org.uk - www.3000class.org.uk  where we'll collect feedback, but if you want a recommendation now, for this season, here it is:

which we'll put on the website and review with the RYA for next season's dinghy data listings.

Fairy Nuff ?

Force 3 - 4 tonight and with 17 stone in the boat, only planing up wind in the gusts.  Keeping up nicely with a well sailed Vario (PY 1032) but failing to get anywhere near a Vandercraft phantom (PY1048).  1030 really doesn't seem far wrong.

Finally sailed it solo tonight, force 2-3 and planing on a close reach.  Smashing.  All three sails up, even better.  It's a mini swift solo!!!!!!!!!

Sadly the V3k is leaving Carsington today .... off to Queen Mary for a few weeks.

erm ... not sure yet (still being finalised, we're on the second cut of spinny by North)

the maniac from medway also posted that he beat a Vortex Assy into second place at the weekend by 7 minutes on handicap, in a Laser 3K, in a F3-5, even suffering a capsize ... undermines my arguement somewhat (but the maniac is good)

Answer: still small. Kite might actually be smaller - the pole is certainly 150mm shorter and the foot accordingly for better balance on reaches.

Actually Yellowhammer, Doug knows about the race (it was last night b.t.w.) - he was Race Officer! Don't tell him any more, he'll be gunning for my PY later in the season once I get the V (at least, I hope he'll have cause to gun....)

Ooops, that's blown it ... if Hector's on the sailing committee at Wilsonian as well, there go your chances of staying a bandit for long!  But maybe that's all part of the plan?

Speaking of Race Officers, here's a decent shot of the V3000 that Kevan, the Race Officer at Carsington took:

Sharp looks, or what? Could have used more mast bend, and the rake seems a bit excessive too, but these were recommended settings and the boat was nicely balanced.

Clearly shows the shorter pole which, with the slightly smaller spinaker, should remove the lee helm of the standard Laser 3k rig in a blow (Nick?). Here's one of Kevan's shots of a L3k for comparison:

Looks tired in comparison, but bung some North sails on it and you've got yourself a transformation, in looks and handling

I'll get the latest sail sizes once Jeff VB returns from holiday

From earlier in this thread ...

... and the same should go for class racing, unless it's an Olympic qualifier or something

sailing in a fleet racing or a class open is the only true test of skill, and even that can be a bit of a lottery at times

BTW I gather the next Laser 3000 finished 25 mins behind the maniac, so how the PY returns system is supposed to cope with all the variables I don't know

we'll collect data anyway, if only out of interest

On the Musto I set up my mast with a very slite inversion in the lower part of the mast and that seems to be fast. but it does go when i put some kicker on.

1st tide ride 2005

2nd worlds 2004

but I dont think that much on the v3000 is right! and the kite luff looks to tight.

when you mast bends the wrong way.  normally if this is the back of the boat is...

here you want it to bend like ) that (but less extreme maybe than a bracket ...but you have got to love the illistration!)

anyway most sail shape are des to fit a mast with prebend that way so when it inverts (bend like ( ....) and goes tother way you find it starts doing funny stuff like not going quick...

I've been sailing the v3k over the last week and I don't THINK the mast was inverted.  Certainly looked dead straight sighting up it. Maybe a bit too straight, as only the top few feet bent back when the kicker was on - so only the top of the sail powered down, and always leaving some sag in the luff of the main, the luff never pulled quite smooth even with the kicker on in a blow.

Maybe a little too much tension on the lowers?  And maybe we had the jib / forestay tension a bit high.

I also thought the rake looked excessive - more contender than L3k - and might  make the spinnaker luff too tight if its hoisted right up to the top. Might it run deeper down wind with a looser luff? 

Wheras the standard laser setup feels to pull down wind a bit with the kite up and needs heeling to leeward, this one feels best sailing down wind totally flat. 

Also thought the rake may be robbing power from the main and pushing the centre of effort too far back; but the larger jib corrects it and it's both VERY well balanced and points well too. 

Waddyathink folks?  Rigging tips happily accepted.

Good spot Callum, have to wind the spreaders back by a fistfull ... we're at Queen Mary this weekend with a coaching day on Saturday and four races on Sunday, so plenty of time to ring a few changes to the set-up

Say hello if anyone's there