Revolutionary Centerboard!!
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1765
Printed Date: 15 Aug 25 at 11:01pm Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Revolutionary Centerboard!!
Posted By: tickel
Subject: Revolutionary Centerboard!!
Date Posted: 15 May 06 at 8:34pm
Revolutionary Centre board!! I have just invented somthing. Produce a centreboard with a perfect aerodynamic section. Slice it in half so that you have one curved and one flat side on each half, then re fit it with both sides on the same bolt. Drop one half for each tack. Centreboard lift? Am I the new Frank Bethwaite or has it been tried before or am I an idiot. Clever people coment please. Pablo, dont comment.
------------- tickel
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Replies:
Posted By: MRJP BUZZ 585
Date Posted: 15 May 06 at 8:38pm
i suppose it would work, u will have to try it
------------- Josh Preater
http://www.bu22.co.uk"> BUZZING IS FUN
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Posted By: Chris Noble
Date Posted: 15 May 06 at 8:54pm
andy paterson tried something similar to this a long time ago with teh moth, it was a canting centre board that you could tilt from side to side to give additional lift upwind as far as im aware
------------- http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=561 - Competitive Boat Insurance From Noble Marine
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 15 May 06 at 9:01pm
I suppose that would work but you would have a problem to stop it vibrating if you acheived any form of speed.....but if you could sort out the structural integrity then its well worth a play.
Doug
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Posted By: Bram
Date Posted: 15 May 06 at 9:07pm
Originally posted by tickel
Revolutionary Centre board!! I have just invented somthing. Produce a centreboard with a perfect aerodynamic section. Slice it in half so that you have one curved and one flat side on each half, then re fit it with both sides on the same bolt. Drop one half for each tack. Centreboard lift? Am I the new Frank Bethwaite or has it been tried before or am I an idiot. Clever people coment please. Pablo, dont comment. |
Tickel,
Whatever you do, don't let the question of having "been tried before" be the test. You may have to develop several generations before you get it right (a process that most simply don't have the stomach for). Your board will be very weak and will likely have to be three times as heavy to get similar flex characteristics (all other variables being the same). I'm not pointing this out to discourage you but only to make sure you take it into consideration. Extra weight in the centerboard is not a deal killer.
Bram
------------- Bram
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Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 15 May 06 at 9:22pm
[QUOTE=Chris Noble] andy paterson tried something similar to this a
long time ago with teh moth, it was a canting centre board that you could
tilt from side to side to give additional lift upwind as far as im aware[/
QUOTE]
What Andy did was nothing like what this guy is suggesting.
Get yourself a N12 and give it a go. Like Bram says the extra weight of
essentially having two boards doesn't have to be deal breaker. It depends
on the rules of the class you are designing it for.
------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 15 May 06 at 9:32pm
Interesting. It wouldn't be great on a daggerboard boat, but on a centreboard boat where the board is weighed in it would be rather interesting. Especially if the class rules didn't permit a gybing board.
Mt main concern would be that in most classes I'd have one season before the idea was banned, and if I'd built a boat with a custom wide case to hold the two foils that would be irritating.
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Posted By: Granite
Date Posted: 15 May 06 at 10:05pm
half a symetrical section flat one side and curved the other would not be as low drag as either a proper asymetric section or a normal symetrick board.
It has sort of been done on cats and some of the canting keel yachts with two asymetrick daggerboards.
------------- If it doesn't break it's too heavy; if it does it wasn't built right
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Posted By: Philsy
Date Posted: 16 May 06 at 9:27am
How about a centreboard that changes shape? Some sort of material that will
flip one way and then the other - a bit like a fully battened windsurfer sail.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 16 May 06 at 9:27am
Wouldn't need to be exactly flat on the other side though would they - at least as long as you are never going to have both down simultaneously.
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Posted By: Blobby
Date Posted: 16 May 06 at 11:57am
Two proper boards it would have to be - you would never get proper flow around the board if you had a sharp angle at the leading edge. Would result in loads of drag and drastically reduced lift and be very unforgiving to changes in direction.
------------- One step forwards, 2 steps back...
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Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 16 May 06 at 7:29pm
i know you said clever people only but im going to say something anyway. how would you store the spare board? it would have to be a centreboard boat i thjink. it might be worth it a class with a heavier weight so you get more righting moment from the board. i dont see why it wldnt work if you got a fairly decent shape but that might need alot of trail and error to sort out.
go for it mate!
------------- 600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it.
Also International 14, 1318
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Posted By: tickel
Date Posted: 16 May 06 at 8:00pm
Thank you all for your interest in this topic. It would be agood idea to not have flat bottom boards as someone suggested and indeed you would only use one board at a time. Downwind stability could be a problem as well since the whole thing would have to be up. How about if you could swivel the board about its axis? or adjustable flaps on the trailing edge? I like the idea of a board which changes shape. You could do that with an eccentric ellipse running down the middle of a hollow soft shelled centere board. Do'nt expect me to do it, we struggle hard enough with our Taser.
------------- tickel
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Posted By: NickA
Date Posted: 16 May 06 at 9:06pm
The gospel according to Bethwaite reckons the extra lift will never make up for the extra drag.
Water being so stiff, you hardly need any angle of attack to get lift, and sufficent angle of attack comes from the boat sailing along very slightly diagonally when sailing up wind.
Having said which, I sailed with an aged GP14 sailor once who insisted on heeling the boat to leward when sailing up wind, even in a blow, as the curve in the hull gave him extra pointing - and out point everyone else we did!
So maybe if you make the asymetry subtle enough....
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Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 16 May 06 at 9:09pm
does that meen make the board very flat or very nearly normal shape?
------------- 600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it.
Also International 14, 1318
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Posted By: NickA
Date Posted: 16 May 06 at 9:26pm
as hyrodynamic as possible I think, ie good airfoil section.
Flat is not necessarily good because you have to transition from leading edge to flat surface to trailing edge again and sudden changes in curve cause the water to accelerate quickly, creating displacement force.
I guess, but don't know for sure, that a really thin board will be good - if you can make it stiff enough not to twist off.
Upon which .... has anyone tried making their own foils? Out of what?
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Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 16 May 06 at 9:30pm
Originally posted by NickA
Upon which .... has anyone tried making their own foils? Out of what? |
Hold your horses there sonney!! lets not gett too carried away!!! making bits of your OWN boat??
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Posted By: Boatboy
Date Posted: 16 May 06 at 9:40pm
Originally posted by mike ellis
it might be worth it a class with a heavier weight so you get more righting moment from the board. go for it mate!
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as the extra mass would be stored in the hull it would'nt make any difference to righting moment.the board in the water would still have the same mass and the same lever so the same righting moment. it would make a difference to the pitching moment of the yacht as their would be more mass lower down in the boat thus lowering the centre of gravity of the boat.but only slightly.
on the subject of building foils you have a multitude of choice depending on the class rules of the boat. personally i would use very high density foam 200kg/m3 plus and uni directional carbon
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Posted By: Hector
Date Posted: 17 May 06 at 12:19am
What about having a 'Bilge boards' arrangement like some scows? Only one foil need be in the water at a time, the other providing some ballast. I'd guess that over the years that Scows have been around, someone must have tried this and probably proved Bethwaites contention that drag will exceed lift.
Couldn't resist the photo! 
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Posted By: Blobby
Date Posted: 17 May 06 at 12:22pm
My memory of what FB said about his trials with flapped boards is that they found no noticeable difference with a +ve flap but did lose out with a -ve flap. BUT he then went on to say that they did the wrong experiment. With the flap the reality is that you could have had a smaller board and hence less wet drag and thus an advantage - albeit a very small advantage. He didn't go on and do the new experiment though!
So if you did go this route you could and should go for a smaller board as well as a proper assymetric shape.
------------- One step forwards, 2 steps back...
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Posted By: charlie w
Date Posted: 17 May 06 at 1:00pm
Don't most boards "flex" beneath the hull anyway?
The prob we always have with Gybing boards (aka accentuating the lift/wing shape) is that they can fall out of gybe, and end up giving you lift the wrong way...!
You could try a movable max chord, which swings side to side where the system comes out of the top of the blade - like an Int 14 rudderblade.
I like the idea of a flexier blade that you could lock off in either "gybe" as that would surely present a lifted shape to the water, and thus more lift, without the downside of needing to keep pressure on the blade to keep it in gybe.
Mind you - that is awfully tweaky....and that from a 505 sailor...!
Cheers
CW
------------- Quality never goes out of fashion.
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Posted By: I luv Wight
Date Posted: 17 May 06 at 10:37pm
It's been done before in 1993 - a college project and tested in toppers.
Jim Hill-Jones - moth sailor was involved in this project
and look - adam may as a nipper!
I think the problem was changing the foils during tacks, and clearing the boom with a completely lifted half-foil.
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Posted By: I luv Wight
Date Posted: 17 May 06 at 10:49pm
The lift from a foil is constant ( or depends on the sail force which depends on righting moment ), so a more efficient foil gives less drag, not more lift.
More efficiency means less area, which is fine if it everything is working good.
But a nasty tack or a gust may mean a foil overload and stall, so small low drag foils are not always good.
Alternatively, the same area but used at less angle of attack to keep the same lift, but then the wetted surface is the same, and drag may not be significant.
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Posted By: tickel
Date Posted: 18 May 06 at 9:32am
And you all thought that the centreboard was just too
stop you drifting sideways into the dam!!
------------- tickel
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Posted By: HannahJ
Date Posted: 20 May 06 at 9:21pm
or as a depth sounder Out of interest, and not really onthis topic, does the width of the centreboard/daggerboard have any effect on upwind progress?
------------- MIRROR 64799 "Dolphin"
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist hopes it will change; the realist adjusts the sail
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Posted By: NickA
Date Posted: 24 May 06 at 11:13pm
Originally posted by Boatboy
on the subject of building foils you have a multitude of choice depending on the class rules of the boat. personally i would use very high density foam 200kg/m3 plus and uni directional carbon
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B*££#R class rules. Once it's painted white who's to know!!!! 
Though in truth my play boat already conforms to no known class and I'm sick of taking chunks out of the foils with trap hook. Gel coated foam is just too fragile. Carbon wrapped foam sounds a good bet. How about aluminium sheet wrapped round wooden forms?
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 26 May 06 at 8:51am
Originally posted by NickA
B*££#R class rules. Once it's painted white who's to know!!!! |
The only thing is if you do get caught you probably cop a rule 69 protest and a two year ban from ISAF...
We sign up for the game, rules and all. If you don't like the rules then change class rather than deliberately break them.
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Posted By: NickA
Date Posted: 01 Jun 06 at 2:13pm
Originally posted by JimC
We sign up for the game, rules and all. If you don't like the rules then change class rather than deliberately break them. |
or better still .... get the class rules changed to something sensible. When changes that save cost or increase strength but don't change performance are banned, but changes which evidently do change performance, but cost a mint (like buying a new boat every year) are allowed, you have to ask who the rules are written for, the sailors or the manufacturers?
However, rest assured, any boat I race meets the rules pertaining to that race. But happily there's more to sailing than racing.
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