i14 vs 49er etc...
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1724
Printed Date: 15 Aug 25 at 7:02pm
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Topic: i14 vs 49er etc...
Posted By: skiffyskiferson
Subject: i14 vs 49er etc...
Date Posted: 05 May 06 at 5:09pm
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hi guys i was just wondering which skiff was the best. i was mostly thinking of moving into an i14 or 49er or something else??? personally i like the look of a i14 but has anyone sailed both? it would be great to here sum opinions. cheers tom |
Replies:
Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 05 May 06 at 5:18pm
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There is no 'best' skiff if you dont include the cherub... Each have their own merits and dissadvantages and its totaly down to which YOU want to sail Id be inclined to suggest that you probibly need to spend more time around these kind of boats (ie enough to know which you preffer!) before you think about moving into them. ------------- |
Posted By: MRJP BUZZ 585
Date Posted: 05 May 06 at 5:20pm
 - shame its not true, the first bit is tho------------- Josh Preater http://www.bu22.co.uk">  BUZZING IS FUN
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Posted By: BBSCFaithfull
Date Posted: 05 May 06 at 6:28pm
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Both of them seem pretty exspensive but look extremely quick
------------- Greatfully Sponsored By www.allgoodfun.com Int 14 GBR 1503!! |
Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 05 May 06 at 6:39pm
But equaly both can be afordable and extremely slow in the wrong hands.... doesnt really help much though. ------------- |
Posted By: TeamFugu
Date Posted: 05 May 06 at 9:51pm
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From what I understand the I14 would be a little easier to sail. Either boat will be a kick. I don't think there are too many skiffs that are totally out. Pick the one that has the most numbers in your area. ------------- Live large, love life, and sail fast. Swift Sol Home, http://swiftsolo.com |
Posted By: m_liddell
Date Posted: 05 May 06 at 10:32pm
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The first criteria must be do you want a dev class or one design with olympic sailors racing in it? As a side note, the 2 best sailors I have ever met have all come from 14s. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 05 May 06 at 11:02pm
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If you contact the Int 14 class im more than certain that they would arrange a test sail for you with a fairly top notch boat. They certainly seem a very friendly and open class. Im sure a test sail could be arranged through the 49er class association although dont quote me on that...... if not, is there anyone here with a 49er willing to help out??? hehehe Doug |
Posted By: skiffyskiferson
Date Posted: 05 May 06 at 11:08pm
He's not paying so i don't think he particularly bothered about that one. (he is my crew at the mo - not for long, 600 for me!!!! )(This post was actually by 29er397 but i fogot to sign him out before i posted...oh well ) |
Posted By: Prince Buster
Date Posted: 05 May 06 at 11:14pm
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I'd go for the int14. I know it sounds crazy but the ole
bethwaite 9er design seems to be looking un petit peu passe if ya get
my drift?
------------- international moth - "what what?" |
Posted By: TeamFugu
Date Posted: 05 May 06 at 11:15pm
I hear the new rules I14's with foile rudders are getting very close to 49er speeds. I also hear that the foil rudder is making the I14's much easier to get around the course. Either way you get an insane ride and lots of spills. If he is buying, there are probably more I14's running around used and 49ers. If he is looking for a new ride, he may not be your crew for long.  ------------- Live large, love life, and sail fast. Swift Sol Home, http://swiftsolo.com |
Posted By: micmac37
Date Posted: 06 May 06 at 7:17am
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I've had the same debate eventually decided to get an RS800 !! Thought the 14 would be fantastic but also thought I would need to spend to be competitive and would lose and lose on the resell value. The development class comes with need to spend money to compete/know you can compete. Thought the 49er would be even better - one design an advantage, top sailors and circuits to learn (? as welcoming), very fast and pushing the limits, cheaper 2nd hand boats that have been well maintained and sailed by good sailors (although stiffness a problem and upkeep is expensive ++). However to sail the boat you need a top top regular crew with extreme fitness/ability and if you don't have one it would be less of a pleasure. Also downwind in waves (plenty where I sale) would be a problem. RS800 is one design with good sailors and circuit and is challenging and fast enough. Helm can/does play main therefore crew is not necessarily needed to be consistent/ amazing. Holds resell value as one design. Well made and stiff and good design. I know you don't get to sail the olympic class/ leading development class but you reap the rewards instead. Cheers Mike ------------- Sail well Feel Swell |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 06 May 06 at 11:15am
That really is largely a myth. There are classes where you spend a lot of money and classes where you don't, but it really isn't that much to do with rules. I bet, for instance, that the annual sailing expenditure of both Laser and 49er world champions considerably exceeds that of the 14 World champions just because you really need to be doing every major international event to be at World standard in the Olympic boats. The 800 of couese doesn't have international competition unlike the 14 and the 49er, so that immediatey makes it cheaper to do all the big events. The development class or one design decision should come down to two questions and two only... "Am I interested in the subtleties of what makes one boat go faster than another, and to I belioeve that to be a true champion Ineed to be incolved in design and planning decisions for the whole project rather than just jump in a boat and sail it." If you just want to jump in a boat and aren't interested in the subtleties then jump in a SMOD. If you are intrested in the whole process sail a box rule boat. If you have some interest in the technical stuff but feel life is too short to get involved in the whole thing sail a one design where things likle rigs can be changed. That decision isn't going to be the same for everyone all the time. My own boat is always a box rule boat, but when I jump in a boat to crew I prefer it to be a one design because then I don't get mentally slowed down by what are for me deficiencies in the boat set up. On that, at the moment I own a Canoe which has a one design hull, and I do find mysef cursing at what I believe to be an excessive bow wave ('cos of the shape) instead of sailing the boat, and that is slow. Not as slow as my boat handling is, but it still affects my concentration at times because I'm thinking about a distraction. |
Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 06 May 06 at 11:21am
Well said Jim  ------------- |
Posted By: 29er397
Date Posted: 06 May 06 at 5:52pm
Its me signed in as myself this time. He did sail and 800 with the guy who he is going back with, but they fancy something a bit more challenging than that this time round. ------------- http://www.kielderwatersc.org - Kielder Water Sailing Club |
Posted By: 29er397
Date Posted: 06 May 06 at 5:55pm
We sail a 29er at the moment - you can't seriously think i want to stay in that boat do you? (possibly the MOST boring boat to helm EVER!!!) i quite fancy a trapeze and a big fully battened main, that suits me fine!!! ------------- http://www.kielderwatersc.org - Kielder Water Sailing Club |
Posted By: m_liddell
Date Posted: 06 May 06 at 6:03pm
| The 800 is a very different boat to both the 14 and 49er. |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 06 May 06 at 6:33pm
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Why, exactly? Would it be better if you got to hang onto the mainsheet? |
Posted By: 29er397
Date Posted: 06 May 06 at 11:36pm
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The 29er is boring to helm because as soon as yiou get the boat handling sorted, which doesn't take long, there isn't much of a challenge to make it fun.. As a helm you don't have anything but a 'stick' and not even a trapeze or mainsheet to make things a bit more interesting, and being so close to the water you tend not to feel the speed until it gets preety breezy. I should imagine that sailing at a club where there are other 29ers might be more fun, but for me it isn't. - Plus a 600 is probably the best 'feeder class' for a musto as that is the class i see myself in in the future. ------------- http://www.kielderwatersc.org - Kielder Water Sailing Club |
Posted By: m_liddell
Date Posted: 06 May 06 at 11:42pm
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Why not get the XX upgrade when it comes available? Being close to the water always seems to me things feel faster to me. Hence why a laser on a reach when it's windy feels fast but actually isn't. |
Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 07 May 06 at 4:27am
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We had a similar dilema a few years back when we were shifting classes from the 5k, it was either RS800, 49er or 14. We looked at the 800 and the dealer who was selling the boat said we'd be at the top end of the weight scale (roughly about 140-150kg) and indicated that it would basically be a backward step from the 5k. The things which were in its favour was the class had a lot of 5k and 4k sailors moving into it. We then looked at the 14 and were looking at Morrison 9s and 10s along side Bieker 2s and 3s. We were quite interested in the boat and it was a close run thing between the 49er. The off putting factor was slightly before the hydro-foils came into effect and the guys with semi competitive boats such as the Beiker 2 were having to spend quite a bit to convert the boats and even then, the older designed shape of the hulls weren't as suited to the conversion as the newer designs. Other factors such as the possibility of development with sails and rigs could be a future expenditure which we couldn't account for and there are boats which have to get their rigs insured seperately to the hull because insurers don't want to have to cover the expense of the rig under normal boat insurance really put us off. The good thing about the 49er is even although the sails, etc can be paralleled expense wise to the 14, you can be assured that you only need to replace them when they become worn past competitiveness instead of due to there being a development within the class and you are in the position of having reasonable gear which is non-competitive because a new design has came about. Sailing wise, the 800 can be paralled to a 4000 demand-wise. The 14s are really quick but I'd still say they aren't as quick as the 9er. Due to the T-foil, the 14 is quite stable upwind and downwind posesses more longitudal stability than the 9er, ie, its less inclined to pitch the bow in. The 9er can be extremely quick in a breeze and pretty hairy and has a knack of allowing you to not get over cocky in the boat. The bow does go down in heavy swell but there is a knack to stop it going down the mine, just head up slightly, the crew feathers the kite just slightly and it knocks the power off, stopping the boat from accelerating into the trough of the wave. I have to say from my point of view, I haven't sailed a better boat than the 9er but I probably have a biased opinion and suggest you try to sail each of the boats in different conditions to get a full overall feel for the boat. I know of sailors who bought 800s and who are now wishing they'd just went straight into the 49er but in the same instance, when we were starting off in the boat, we'd be standing on the shore when it was really windy wishing we'd bought an 800 because they were out having a ball. The general advice we got when buying a 49er is in general to look for a boat above sail number 500 to be competitive (but there might be a few good ones below that number), with the 14 to definately get a boat with a T-foil, either a converted Beiker 2, Beiker 3 and now there is the Beiker 4 and the 5 is either about to come out or has been launched, Morrison wise to look at boats above Morrison 9 but the Beikers generally stay stiffer for longer. Can't really comment on the 800, but reckon trying to find a boat with a good few decent sails and no faults with the mast is the key. ------------- Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ - Helensburgh S.C http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine |
Posted By: skiffyskiferson
Date Posted: 07 May 06 at 7:19pm
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hi guys cheers for all of the replies!!! mabee a little more info about me would help peoples opions. as my bro has said. i have already crewed for one year in an 800 and found it to be a nice boat but a little underpowered and messy!!! we also sail on a very gusty lake so the crew having the main is a real bonus. we live in the north so do not want the boat for class competition although we will be doing regular scottish skiff grandprix opens. (therefore the i14s py will be fantastic if it is truly as fast as the 49er!!!) we arent intending to keep the boat forever as i am of to uni in a couple of years! if we got an i14 we would be getting a bieker 3 with foils or a bieker 4 (which comes with them) heres a couple of questions that would be helpful answered. which is faster???!!!! which tacks easier??? which gybes easier more importantly????!!!!! i here 49ers are very difficult to sail when the wind gets up are the 14s the same??? anymore usefull bits of info please!!!cheers tom ps we want an attainable challage that can be used in most winds!!! |
Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 07 May 06 at 7:57pm
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It might be worth considering the fact that the 49er was the second highest class for entries within the Scottish Skiff series last year second to the Musto Skiff. I attended quite a few of the training events and most of the training was orientated towards the 49er and MPS although the skills being taught could be used universally i.e on a 14 or 600. There are quite a few 49ers located in the North, I think there is a fleet being established at Ullswater and there were at least 10 racing within the SSR circuit. The impresion I was getting last year was that the 9er and MPS were the 2 classes to be getting into, ie people were selling to move into both classes, where as I didn't see that trend with any other boats. The guys that I know within the class are very helpful, and would be more than willing to give you advice. The thing I like about the 49er is that the deck is very uncluttered and I reckon the boat is easier to tune than the 14. Both boats will be demanding to sail and a well sailed 14 will beat a poorly sailed 49er as is true with a well sailed 49er beating a poorly sailed 18. It all depends on sailor ability as is true with any class. If you are interested, Chocolate Girl was for sale a little while ago up in Scotland, not sure if its been taken off the market but its a sorted 14, might be worth checking http://www.scottishskiffracing.com - www.scottishskiffracing.com , but I'd recommend the 9er if you want decent class racing in the North. ------------- Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ - Helensburgh S.C http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine |
Posted By: skiffyskiferson
Date Posted: 07 May 06 at 8:20pm
Well I Helmed an iso for the 1/2 year before we got the 29er and that felt faster than the 29er. even though they are similar on PY. (iso is alot higher than 29er) We would consider the 29erX but due to that fact we are brothers we do't tend to hold back when it comes to arguing (lots of obsenities flying about  ) so our communication goes a bit crap - and no-one likes sailing a boat when you are constantly argueing .done it again - this is 29er397 posting |
Posted By: bovlike
Date Posted: 07 May 06 at 8:24pm
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I have sailed both boats and for me the 14 is the best boat. You can pick up a foiling 14 for about £5000 and it will be on the pace. you would need a morrison 10,11 or 12 or a bieker 2,3,4, or 5 all will be capable of winning in the wright hands. The 49er I think is harder to sail down wind in waves. the14 is a little easyer as it has the T foil to help it keep the nose out but it feels so fast as it is such a small boat. Ian ------------- Ian (Bov) Turnbull 18ft Skiff Ronstan UK http://www.ianturnbullmarine.co.uk - Chandlery, tapered ropes and specialist solutions for sailors who demand the best - BovBoats.co.uk |
Posted By: m_liddell
Date Posted: 07 May 06 at 11:37pm
The guys in the class I have spoken to reckon £11k to be on the pace... |
Posted By: timnoyce
Date Posted: 08 May 06 at 12:04am
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That could be because the guys who are capable of winning are quite willing to throw £11k at a campaign? I think that untill you can sail the boat to the point of making no mistakes then the fine hull developments are the least of your problems. I don't doubt that in an ideal world the latest boats will be faster but I think that in a boat of that type as long as the boat is reasonably new and sorted the nut on the end of the stick is going to be the only one stopping it from winning! ------------- http://www.facebook.com/bearfootdesign - BEARFOOT DESIGN Cherub 2648 - Comfortably Numb |
Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 08 May 06 at 9:01am
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Putting the time in is also important... remember the more you practice the lucker you get! ------------- http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 - |
Posted By: Smithy
Date Posted: 08 May 06 at 10:44am
Sorry, but that's really not right. Good secondhand boats, with t-foils, are going for perhaps £4k - £7k. See http://www.international14.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=38&Itemid=29 - http://www.international14.org/index.php?option=com_content& amp;task=view&id=38&Itemid=29 for more on practicalities (incl, costs) of sailing 14's. Re comparisons, as others have said, there's not much between a 14 and a 49er for speed. Those who've sailed both say the 14, being shorter and narrower, feels friskier (even with a t-foil). The 14s are allegedly more fun socially (none of those over-intense wannabee Olympic types). You need to decide for yourself if you like being able to change things on the boat or not. 14 rigs move on, although the hull designs are pretty stable at present - and re the rigs, if you're sailing regularly, you'll be getting new sails every so often (2-3 years for mains?) anyway... RS800's are aimed at lighter crews, incl perhaps boyfriend/girlfriend combos. Nothing wrong with that, but again depends what you're looking for yourself One last comment - if you two really can't communicate as helm and crew, I'm afraid though any fast skiff is going to be a problem! Cheers |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 08 May 06 at 11:29am
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There are some single handed skiffs that could address the communication issue ... ------------- |
Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 08 May 06 at 2:03pm
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Have to emphasise the point that communication issues on skiffs are a major problem. If you are going to argue on the water, you won't do much sailing and a lot of swimming. High Performance skiffs don't give you the time to argue on the water so either address the issues before jumping into classes, start sailing with other people or go down the single-handed route. If you can't speak to each other when things go wrong, it will all end in tears............ ------------- Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ - Helensburgh S.C http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine |
Posted By: 29er397
Date Posted: 08 May 06 at 5:22pm
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I think someone may missed the point here - we are not sailing together after this season, Tom (bro and crew) is going to sail with his old helm (who he sailed an 800 with last season) whilst I get a 600 till i can get the funds for a musto (long time yet although if i can get a crew things might change). This posting is about what boat Tom and Paul will sail next season. ------------- http://www.kielderwatersc.org - Kielder Water Sailing Club |
Posted By: 29er397
Date Posted: 08 May 06 at 5:29pm
If a mum and dad are buying their kids a musto and a 700 - they must be spoilt little brats!!!!!!! (not saying i would mind!!! i would obviously have the musto!!!)------------- http://www.kielderwatersc.org - Kielder Water Sailing Club |
Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 08 May 06 at 8:11pm
theres nothing wrong with a good shouting at your crew as long as it is after the race. if you think you've got problems try sailing with a sister whos as stubborn as a mule and is scared of the kite .------------- 600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it. Also International 14, 1318 |
Posted By: skiffyskiferson
Date Posted: 08 May 06 at 8:17pm
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[/QUOTE] Re comparisons, as others have said, there's not much between a 14 and a 49er for speed. Those who've sailed both say the 14, being shorter and narrower, feels friskier (even with a t-foil). The 14s are allegedly more fun socially (none of those over-intense wannabee Olympic types). You need to decide for yourself if you like [/QUOTE]hi guys your dead right, communication is key, especially in skiffs and that is why me and fergus are splitting up but me and paul have a fantastic sailing relationship and perform well together. thats a good piont about the social side aswell because realy serious people suck the fun out of sailing we are really in it for the fun and the occaitional open (handicap racing-scottish skiffs opens) so if an i14 realy can keep up with a 49er and with the fantastic py advantage it sounds like the boat for us! if we buy a fully sorted bieker 3 it should stay pretty up to date for a couple of years???yes??? we also love to change things around and try out new things o see how the boat sails best. something which is a real restriction in the 49er and 800! ps the friskier and faster the better. pps which is the hardest to tack and gybe??? cheers tom |
Posted By: Granite
Date Posted: 08 May 06 at 9:05pm
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A beiker 3 should be good for a few years, you may need some new sails in that time but what boat would not. I think in some ways the 14 will be more difficult to manuver than the 49er. As the 14 is quite narrow you need to be on the wire for your weight to have much effect, wheras on the 9er just being out on the wing gives a lot of RM. But in a lot of ways they are the same, the rig is the boss ------------- If it doesn't break it's too heavy; if it does it wasn't built right |
Posted By: bovlike
Date Posted: 08 May 06 at 9:23pm
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I think the 14 is harder to tack as it is so small. A beiker 3 would be a good boat but you would want one with a self tacker for the jib as the first beiker 3s had a normal jib system. There are some good morison 10/11 up for sale now for about 5 grand. they would be on the pace.
------------- Ian (Bov) Turnbull 18ft Skiff Ronstan UK http://www.ianturnbullmarine.co.uk - Chandlery, tapered ropes and specialist solutions for sailors who demand the best - BovBoats.co.uk |
Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 09 May 06 at 12:02am
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Have a look at this link http://www.scottishskiffracing.com/for%20sale.htm - http://www.scottishskiffracing.com/for%20sale.htm . Gavin's 14 is a really good one, think it's Morrison 10, not the one he's sold but the one he's putting on the market. John's 49er is a good boat too. ------------- Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ - Helensburgh S.C http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine |
Posted By: Strawberry
Date Posted: 09 May 06 at 12:11am
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I would reccomend a B2 over a B3 as it's proven faster. The B4 was a step back towards the B2 design. ------------- Cherub 2649 "Dangerous Strawberry |
Posted By: skiffyskiferson
Date Posted: 10 May 06 at 6:52pm
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ok guys i think we are decided that the 14 is the best boat for us although its quite a difficult choice of boat to get!!! we are looking for a sensible priced boat probably in the region of 7k. i have looked at the website and read alot about them but it is hard to find info on which are the best designs, what to look for and what to avoid. if anyone has any hints or tips i would love to here them! (bov-you look like a bit of an expert) cheers tom |
Posted By: bovlike
Date Posted: 10 May 06 at 7:26pm
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I think any of the uk boats are good if you are looking to spend about £7000 you won’t get a b4 or a Morrison 12. I would just make sure that you get a self tacking jib and a T foil all the boats are built well you also want to get one that has a few kilos of lead in it as the weight is coming down a little over the next two years. There are a few boats in the £6500 to £5500 range that are good boats for sale 1491, 1487 and 1466 which was an RMW works boat at the Bermuda worlds Hope this helps ------------- Ian (Bov) Turnbull 18ft Skiff Ronstan UK http://www.ianturnbullmarine.co.uk - Chandlery, tapered ropes and specialist solutions for sailors who demand the best - BovBoats.co.uk |
Posted By: mike lennon
Date Posted: 10 May 06 at 9:59pm
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the B4 and M11 are pretty closely matched as are the B5 and M12, i do think
the later two have a small edge but 11s are still the quickest downwind -- i think! if you stretch another couple of grand you might pick up a 12, 5s are difficult to pick up in the UK. There are a lot of 12s about some of which dont get many outings so whilst not actually on the market may be available. 12s are tricky to sail compared to the older designs. there is a view that the B2 is closer to the 5 than the 4 or 3 but i dont know for sure. ------------- mike lennon |
Posted By: TeamFugu
Date Posted: 10 May 06 at 10:27pm
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I think one key thing to remember about i14's is that until you can keep the thing upright all the way around the course, what type is fastest is of little concern. I'd recommend starting on something you can afford event better if there is room for adding more toys. After you get so you think the boat is slowing you down and your boat handling is similar to the top guys, upgrade to what is fast at that time. Often what is fast depends on who is in the boat more so than the boat itself. That way your learning time and breakage is on something less expensive.
One man's opinion. ------------- Live large, love life, and sail fast. Swift Sol Home, http://swiftsolo.com |
Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 10 May 06 at 10:28pm
Im not a 14 sailor and definantly not up to speed on 14 designs but I think the 3 was a bit of a departure that wasnt entirely succesfull, the 4 returned to the ideas of the 2 and the 5 is a slight advancement on the 4 ------------- |
Posted By: timnoyce
Date Posted: 10 May 06 at 10:57pm
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Another thing to bear in mind is that just because a boat is 'sorted' for one person it may not be suited to another. I'm not sure how it works in the 14's but there are no 2 cherubs set up the same, people put things where they want them and if they don't like it they will move them. Unless you are very lucky (or adaptive) it can cost a fair amount of money to get the boat set up how you like it. I guess if you are from a SMOD background you will probably just get on with where things are positioned (however badly that may be!) Just my view on the subject from a slightly more quirky and budget development class  ------------- http://www.facebook.com/bearfootdesign - BEARFOOT DESIGN Cherub 2648 - Comfortably Numb |