Along the same lines as my other post, but this time for a doublehand boat.

I'm on a fleet planning committee for a college sailing club. We are looking at rotomolded boats in the 4-4.5m range for the doublehand training fleet. We currently have FJ's for training, with Laser2's for the slightly more advanced sailors. We would like something more durable (hence the rotomolded requirement), but still light enough that two college girls can drag it on and off the dock (roughly 120kg or so).

So far, we've found:

• Topper Magno
• Topper Xenon (might be too big)
• RS Feva XL(might be too small)

The Vision is definitely too big, and the Vago is clearly not a novice boat.

So, my question is:

How do these boats stack up against a Laser2 or FJ in terms of performance, handling, etc.?

Also, it seems like the Magno is a fairly new boat. Is this true?

Thanks,

Kevin H

Washington Yacht Club

Hi Kevin,

The Magno is new, but its heavy and big, plus apparently quite tippy.  As you say, the Xenon is too big.  The Feva isn't a bad choice, small but the cockpit is ok.  Underpowered for heavyweights but they are strong.  Given the choice I would go with Fevas. 

In terms of performance, the Laser II is probably faster than all of them - lightweight with a proper planing hull.  The Topper boats are heavy and the Feva lacks the sail area.  The FJ, I've no idea what that is although I know its almost exclusively American.  The Vago comes with a small rig as well, and could be useful as it can be "turboed" to give more experienced sailors a better ride, thus killing 2 birds with one stone.  You can actually helm off the wire singehanded with a kite, although not sure about the balance on the helm!

Hi Kevin,

I own a Vago and the standard sail version is comparable with the Laser 2 and certainly suitable for less experienced sailors. The XD rig gives much more performance and the larger assymetric means it needs more respect going down wind to aviod a swim. The real difference is in sailing style, i.e. the Vago hull shape means that it must be sailed flat. If the boat is allowed to heel then the rudder ceases to be a rudder a becomes a big brake instead. In my view the Vago is a good stepping stone to a skiff as it rewards that style of sailing. Is that what you are looking for?

It also sails quite nicely single handed without the Jib, although rasing the Kite can require an extra arm to two at times!

Sumo

Tippy like a Laser2, or tippy like a log? One person's tippy is another person's stable.

We want people to learn to shift their weight. And by shift their weight, I mean by hiking. We really do not want a trapeze boat to teach absolute beginners how to sail.

From my experience of the Vago XD (one race in F2-3, one in F3-4), I'd be happy to race against one on the water in a Laser 2 in all but the lightest of airs.

Sure, the Vago feels fast, just isn't. What's the PY of the XD? I'd put it at 1040.

The PY is 1000 for the XD two up and 1030 for the XD one up, the standard rig is 1070 and 1100 respectively. So close enough that the skill of the helm makes all the difference!

Surely 'Vandercraft 3000' ?

It will be very useful at keeping the Bank Manager happier - but not a lot else!

Firstly, thanks Isis for putting the obvious reply to Chris so succinctly.

I raced a L2 for four years, and an L3k for two, so am in a pretty good position to compare them.

Speedwise, Tim, I think you would be absolutely right were it not for the fact that the L3k is very much more sorted than the L2 - when as an L2 sailor you first sail a 3k it's a real delight: with the L2 you are always struggling with under-rated components (bendy boom, diamonds instead of normal spreaders thus no possibility of mast pre-bend, spi pole that likes to disappear round the forestay etc.), whereas the L3k all works properly by and large. Plus the sailplan is much better balanced: you have to steer an L2 with the mainsheet - so much as look at the rudder and it ventilates -  whereas the identical blade on the 3k is more than adequate (I was actually shocked to discover they're the same on both boats - thought the 3k's was much bigger).

Downwind, the L3k is very much a soaker in most conditions, and works pretty well in that mode, but the L2 should beat it on a square run. Be interesting to see whether the lighter V3k is more of an apparent wind sailing boat; I suspect it will be - the planing performance will be just sufficiently better to make it worth heading up and getting the crew on the wire.

Kite-reaching the L3k will beat the L2 because of its bigger kite, and upwind the more efficient rig might gain you a smidgen ('white sail areas' are effectively the same).

But what will really set the 3k's, L & V, above the L2 should be the new North sails (and £400 cheaper than the Laser sails!) with more modern kite design and sexy battened jib with a tad of overlap making jib trim less excrutiatingly critical.

We've got the V3000 at Carsington (Ashborne, Derbyshire) next weekend, for its first open. Hoping for a blow to get some decent photo's. I'll post a shot with the new North sails, whatever.

The boat is available there for three weeks, before heading down to Queen Mary (W London) at half-term. We can arrange a demo at either venue, contact mailto:info@3000class.org.uk - info@3000class.org.uk if you'd like to "make a date".

Strikes me, one advantage of the 3000 over the Laser 2 is the ease of handling an asymmetric kite for novice crews, rather than a symmetric kite which is more of an art form (I learned in Fireballs, from being an absolute beginner).

There's such a wide range of ability on our circuit, I expect L3000s and V3000s to be well mixed up in the results table, except that the top class sailors are tending to opt for the "V" so competition at the front will remain close.

We're retaining the existing Laser 3000 Nationals trophy for the highest placed "classic" Laser 3000, which gives sailors lower in the fleet something to compete for. There will be a new overall trophy (and who knows, a Laser 3000 might just walk away with both).

I've got the V all day on Saturday at Carsington ... can't wait ... please, please, please, let there be wind!!!

PS The Laser II PY is 1035, and the "3000" (i.e. Laser 3000 or V3000) is 1030, until we have a feel for whether the "V" needs to be rated lower (expectation is not, based on the average sailor in average UK sailing conditions.)

Originally posted by timnoyce or they could just make the V3000 sailors carry 30kg of lead?! or would you then just be going round in circles!?

i guess you'd add 15kg to port and 15kg to stbd to fix that?

we considered ballast for class racing, but who'd want to race a great little lightweight boat with two dumbells strapped in the cockpit ... 30 kg is a lot of metal, just think how much plastic that equates to ... no wonder L2s and L3ks are pretty much bombproof, mass procuced in sprayed chopped strand GRP/ polypropolene/ marine ply

the V3000 hulls use vacuum bagged woven GRP/ epoxy/ foam sandwich construction, from a specialist UK builder ... a totally different beast ... strong and stiff, but needing a little more love and care

i saw a post on another thread somewhere that said the 49er is built in epoxy resin, but even the 29er opted for cheeper polypropolene construction

okay, okay, that's the end of my V3k hype ... rotomould mediochrity has to be the route for you Kevin

Think you mean polyester rather than polyprop, Y'hammer. The Topper is polyprop, I think.

blame my nothern sence of humour

"awsome" and "3000" are two words that have never been used in the same sentence before, and it's maybe stretching it a bit ... saying that, Jeff V-B(Vandercraft) offering this quality and potential handicap performance for the price is pretty impressive

back on topic again, have you consider including one higher performance asymmetric on your shopping list Kevin, to motivate your better sailors? ... I'm thinking Vago/ RS500/ V3000, i.e. something inspiring but realistic to aim for

how many times have you actualy sailed and in what sort of winds? unless you hardly ever sail in strong winds thats a massive achievment. well done. and as for the moth sailor cant you be just a little bit more sensible? i mean balancing on a couple of centimetres of boat is bad enough, but then on a couple of milimetres of dagger board!!??

i know theyre not stable, thats why you should be a teensy bit more sensible.

ill shut up now.

Probably for the best....

No. We already have 2 505's, an I-14, Laser2's, a Lightning, Hobies in various sizes, etc. There's no shortage of fast fiberglass boats here in the US. But we don't have access to decent rotomolded boats, aside from the Feva. There are some less-than-decent boats, but who wants those?

The Feva is a nice boat, but is a little too small for two college students of "average american build." Probably roomier than a Laser2, though.

Our problem is that our new sailors break the fiberglass boats faster than we can repair them. So, that's why I'm specifically asking about rotomolded boats.

Anyways, I have a statistics midterm tomorrow. I better get some sleep.