Some classes claim/ state that cheap boats can be competitive. Are there any classes where (realistically) a sub £1000 boat can win a nationals? (apart from RC lasers!)

Maybe the Lighting 368?

I think even in boats where tht e hull cost is low enough your gonna be scuppered by the age of the sails!

That's showing them no respect whatsoever! Putting "with the greatest respect" at the beginning doesn't absolve you of this!

I totally agree with the sentiment though, although I'm not sure the RYA would have the authority to stop any class holding a national championship. Might be wrong here though.

Indeed yes, we have a pacer nat champ at out club and we allways pull his chain about it! Although theres never been more than 7boats there lol

I was just trying to be nice!  I've nothing against people sailing these boats - there great for teaching your children.  Its just that the sense of pride when winning in them must be somewhat tempered by the lack of opposition.

The ISAF determine which classes can and can not hold World Championships, so the RYA should be able to do the same for Nationals.

Buy and old wreck to train in for £800 ish and charter a new boat for the Nationals for around £200 would be your best bet,I think you could do this in most classes.

You could definitely do it in the lightning class as the current national champion did and if you wanted to by this national winning boat I am sure he would sell it for just under a grand

Originally posted by bovlike Sten can I charter your boat for the musto nats? with out you there i might stand a chance of winning if it is windy

sten sounds like u could make some money out of this one

Steve Irish's performance in Suicide Blonde at the Draycote open was streaks ahead of almost everyone else I've seen in Cherubs. I think he could win the Cherub nats in a boat costing less than a grand.

If a very good sailor selects a weak class I am sure they would wind in pretty much anything ... the skill is picking the weak class; but then what pleasure is there in that.

More rewarding to have a go at a stronger class.

Mine might

(got to fill a hole in that too)

(is this becoming a trend ??)

Originally posted by carshalton fc i think the point rick is tring to make is that steve went into an boat he hadnt sailed much and whopped all of u.  and 19boats at the nats, i would call it a weak class, we all love u guys but ur enthusiaum is a little overpowering at times.

A boat he didn't know, but was at his home club, where most the Cherubs had never sailed before! And it wasn't exactly a whooping, most the fleet were there or there-abouts. The Cherub fleet is certainly not weak. It's the home of many of the countries top sail boat design minds, including VOR rig managers, and Olympic foil designers/builders.

This has nothing to do with Cherub enthusiasm, my point was that Steve Irish would kick arse in any boat he stepped into, and yes, that does include the 4k fleet, which is a mere shadow of the fleet it used to be. Isn't the 4k fleet just full of Sunday drivers and annoying little chavs now?

(Nothing against you Stefan or Redback...)

who drive their scooters all over the place! eh luke?

Well if that's what you think of the 4k fleet Stu, why don't you have the guts to say it to some of our faces?

Some of us do actually know how to sail our boats.......

[QUOTE=kasey3000] some of us do actually know how to sail our boats......QUOTE]

take it that the above statement doesn't include you then kita

well seeing as I wasnt actually on my boat when it broke....and the only reason it broke was beacuse the new shroud I had just put on snapped.

That's just typical of your fleet...... pointless comments when you inferior to "real boat" sailors......

Wish I knew what that meant...

lol ok point taken you cherub bullies!

it is now corrected!!!

haha..... good one Dennis

I'd forgotten about that......

one of the 5k Mafia rules: dont annoy any of us off or you'll find a horses head in your bed or Dennis will send me round to your house with my bolt cutters!!!!

is that the beer talking Tim?....or Vodka???

As young Pabs has just stated my son did indeed win the Lightning Nationals in a cheap boat. He also won 7 out of nine other class opens and  became Derbyshire Youth Champion racing against mainly Laser Radials. The very old boat is good and solid and he is on his 3rd sail. Boat £225.00 sail  £300.00. Mind you he wants £999.99 for it now and you can be National Champ!

So how do with measure the strength of competition within a class then?

I'd suggest the number and diversity (i.e other class successes) of former champions competing in said class.

Rick

I know it's a crude 'yardstick' but how a class champion does in the Endeavour must be one measure.

Another would be how many boats they have at events - (I can't think of a single BIG class where the top guys aren't very good - and capable of sailing other boats fast).

Another would be how many sailmakers etc race the class - as these people are the pros they are often the better sailors as well.

I wouldn't describe the Cherub class as weak just because Steve Irish wupped them!  As a comparitively hard - to - sail 'niche' boat, I suspect not too many others could repeat Steves acheivement and as Jim suggests, they certainly couldn't in an even harder to sail boat -  such as a foiling Moth.

Spot on mate, I'm pleased someone gets it. My point was that, if your a good enough sailor, you can win.

Winning in an old boat at nationals level is always going to be harder than at open meetings in most classes because the Nationals tend to be sailed on more open water, where boat speed plays more on a role. Inland open meetings on small water can be won in just about any boat (duck tape doesn't cost too much) provided the sail still has a little shape left in it! Take the same boat off to the nationals on the sea, and you'll find that a softer hull and Cr&ppy rig will see the newer boats gently pull away up wind. Been there, done that...doesn't help that I grew up sailing on rivers, mind, and can't choose which side of an open water beat to go up!

Steve Irish is a truly excellent sailor as anyone who has either seen his sailing CV or has sailed with him will tell you.

However, without wishing to take anything away from his DWSC open meeting win, let's not forget that...

1. Many of the more modern and serious boats were not there (I am talking the top 97 boats such as LRN and the other newer 05 boats) and may well have given him some more serious competition (I do not count SB as such as after all she is a conversion utlising lots of "recylced" parts)

2. Many of the boats that were there had recently been dug out of retirement (in keeping with the fantastic growth the class is enjoying) and had been put on the water using second hand gear, or with new crew/helm combinations

3. There was only 1 other boat there that had 05 rules sails and that boat did not do all the races.  The conditions were light which was going to put the 05 boats at a huge advantage.  During the Nationals last year, for the last 2 days (also light) when i'd sorted my sh*t out and learned to helm properly, IIRC all the 05 rules boats were at the front of the fleet and making big distance (although Will and Lucy were consistently mixing it in the smaller ragged Aquamarina).  This was due to Will and Lucy sailing very well, and the only reason I was up there was due to the fact that I had a shed load more sail up than the boats behind me.  If I can do it then Steve will certainly do it.

4. The new main, jib and very tired old kite were £1000, so the whole discussion is a bit pointless!

5. Suicide Blonde is a technological marvel, tuned to the highest specification and utilising the highest quality materials hand-picked from the cream of the nations boat parks.  Thousands of hours and hundreds of pints went into her design and construction...tee hee.

So to even suggest that Cherubs are a weak class because a National champion, former world champion, tide ride winner and Sailboat RYA presenter and full time performance coach can come along to his home club and win an event in a resonably well sorted boat that is flying considerably more rag than every other boat that attempted all the races is a load of old rowlocks.

He may still have won if all the more serious competition was there, let's not forget just how far he was in front at some points, but we don't know so to assume anything is a little foolish. 

Jim, I did say it was a crude measure but I still think it as relevant as some of the other suggested 'yardsticks'. Or are  you suggesting  that a talented sailor from any competative fleet couldn't get into say the top half of the Endeavour trophy results? I'd suggest that a National champion from a reasonably competative fleet should be able to do that or better (I'll concede that they'd struggle to beat the class experts but they can only occupy the top two or three places).

BTW, your examples are fine, but ignore the fact that the winner this year represented the Finn but also won the OK worlds and is  at the top of the RS400 fleet - showing I think a high degree of skill in two very diverse types of boat. Secon were the Laser 4000 guys - hardly a hiker,  Paul Goodison the top Laser sailor did well in a boat totally unlike a Laser, the top Lark sailors did well and they don't have an asymmetric - as for the  Mirror, Miracle and Streaker guys - yes they all sail other boats but nothing  like a Xenon and they were all top ten!!  In fact I think there was only one asymmetric hiking boat class represented in the event  - so whilst I agree there's currently no real way to tell, I still say  the Endeavour is a good if crude yardstick.

Hi I have put a reply to this as a new topic as you can see I am a newbie and got it wrong,

the reply is labelled up as Pacer National Champ!

2nd attempt

Well as one of the recent Pacer National champions I can say I am proud to have the trophy on my sideboard, and yes we normally only get around 8 boats, I paid £550 for my first National winning boat, and 895 for my second,

I doubt you can get a Pacer for £1000 if you tried, (they are all cheaper)

however in the right hands in the right conditions they are very competitive (I know you could say that about most classes)

The Pacers were 1st and 2nd in the slow handicap in Saturdays IOS race (30 boats didn't make it round)

As for banning Nationals for small classes what a sad day that will be, remember the Pacer was designed for the family (not the boy racers). I have seen many a smile on a young crews face, such as the 10 year old crew who completed the Sheppey race and walked home with a huge trophy with his proud dad...

PS The Pacer Nationals are this weekend at Bough Beech Sailing Club, there are a couple of competitive boats on the Web site, you too could be National champion by Sunday night (and by the way the boats are all under a £1000)

I cant be bothered to trawl through everything that has already been said so if I am repeating anything I apologise.

The Hornet is a boat where you can pick up a competetive boat for under£1000. Ours cost £500 on a good condition combi and two reasonable suits of sails. Several have come up on ebay and sold for very silly money recently.

The nationals/europeans had over 30 boats this year and was won by Mike Macnamarra. Ok its regarded as an out of date design and carries one of those spinakers which needs the crew to move the pole around to gybe it but where else can you get that sort of value for money.

And dont forget you still have time to get one to compete in the Symetric Grand Prix next month.

I remember seeing some of the new optimists for real after sailing my old one for a couple of years. The amount of extra fittings and rope was crazy and barely resembled my boat. Despite all this, the kicker is still just a rope and a cleat on the mast though!