This thread is doomed from the start...

Well documneted, look at sailing anarchy, or Catsailor.com.

However, Tornado quicker that 18 foot Skiff.

49er slightly slower than a Inter 17, overall (mine is for sale ) and Shadow.

F18 / Hurricane / Hurricane SX blow the 49er away in all but the lighter stuff.

Next question please.

Whilst modern skiffs are approaching cat speeds orf wind if they haven't got there already , cats are miles faster upwind , if anyone ever told you cats don't go upwind well , they were talking a pile of pants .

Follow this link to an e-mail I had from John Forbes on the Subject of speeds between 18 footers and an old Tornado.

http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=237&KW=bundock&PN=0&TPN=15 - http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2 37&KW=bundock&PN=0&TPN=15

I'll also re-quote it for those who cannot be bothered to follow the link:

Now this was a few years ago, and no doubt the 18's have got quicker, but so will the Tornado.

too true. but maybe that is because most of the people on here are from the uk and in the uk not many cats are sailed competitively. we need a better reflection of the worlds sailing comunity to have any fair argument about cat vs mono on here. by the way cats are faster even if they tack like they have a rope holding their rudders.

a very very slow cat.

acording to the long email cats do go wel upwind. they just dont tack.

Urm, My Inter 17 will out point aflying 15 (if I want it to).

You have to remember that we are doing 15 kts upwind so we have to do calcs for speed vs pointing.  It's not just crank it in and stuff it to windward.

As for tacking, it would take any boat a little while to go into a tack at 15kts, and then get back up to 15 kts.

Consider, how long does it take a 49er to tack, or an 18 foot skiff to tack.  Yes the Skiff / 49er is going slower, but it still takes them a while.

Can't believe that !. A cat in a breeze can be awsome and should be experienced by all.

I too prefer dinghies overall but love cats (and also boards) in the right conditions.

Nip round to your neighbours at Pentewan next time you are able and hitch a ride - then see if you'd 'give up sailing'

Not at Grafham; Same price

But you did not say at "Hill Head" you made an inaccurate generalisation!

im sorry mister long word person

As a generalisation (and its a big one!) I think that the faster dinghys go, the less tactical the racing beomes, even more so with cats.

When your going slower, and can tack/gype compartivly faster, you can take advantage of changes in wind direction much more effectivly, as well as sailing the fleet more closely.

Once you start getting into boat speed sailing, you just have to decide which corner you want to sail into, and hope you got it right!

Both require their own individual set of skills and techniques, and have differing positive and negative points, but on balance (and this is a personal opinion), I prefer the tactical sailing

i would dissagree with this as cats often sail far larger courses it requires alot of skill to pick the right way up the course inorder to make most from the wind shifts etc

But with the time taken to tack ( and I'm nto just talkinf about cats  here, fast dinghys B14, 49er etc as well) you can't make use of the smaller shifts, your looking more for the longer duration wind patterns, long ossicilations, wind swing etc.

I agree that cats sailing long courses do have their own unique tactical considerations, but put a fast boat on a short course and it corner time!

From my (limited) cat experience, I have to say I much prefer dinghy sailing- for racing anyway. Cats are nice for having a blast once in a while.

I think cats are good for long distance races, but for boat on boat racing, you can't beat a dinghy

Agreed, but it is different.

when sailing cat; you have to plan the next leg as tacking has to be considered; in a slow boat you can react to the small shifts.  The sailing is different, but still very tactical and because the speeds are so much higher, even tiny mistakes are punished by big distance loss.

I remember a conversation I had a while ago with a visitor at grafham, he was asking why the cats were so far apart "Simon, you looked like you were about 100m ahead of the next boat when you finished, why so far ahead?"  My answer was that 100m is not very far when you are travelling at 15kts (13 seconds????). 

Not this bloody argument again.......

If you think cats or skiffs are less tactical, don't tack, gybe or are easier to sail......  Then sail one at a competitive level then come back to be with the conclusion.....  I'll save you some time.  It is total BS.

Regarding speed.....  Up wind the cat will smoke a mono.  Only the 18 skiff is getting sort of close to a cat upwind.  Downwind, cats with kites will smoke most monos with only the Aussie skiffs giving them a bit of competition.

If you wish to knock the cats.....  Post your credentials.....  What cat racing have you done, at what level and what cat.  It seems that those how wish to knock cats have only ever punted around on a beat up Hobie 16 or 18 at best......  reaching back and forth.

Go out and race in an F-18, Tornado, A Class fleet or something of the same standard.  When you reach the top half of the fleet atleast, then come back and comment.

Sorry mate, but this is a perfect example of a totaly uneducated comment.

And what basis are you making this comment.....

I don't think anyone who has sailed Cats, Skiffs and small Firefly like boats would say that any of them are easier to win in, but they are VERY different. When travelling at 15 knots you are obviously going to loose more in the tacks, even in a well designed cat, than you are in a dinghy doing 3 knots. The skills are therefore different, but I don't think anyone in their right mind would try and say one is easier than the other.

As for the speed differences, how about Int 14 v's Hobie 14?!

get back on the multi hull section where i don't have to look at you - just so depressing

allanorton, Ohhh Bitchy.  Cannot handle a little accurate information! 

Cats are different and 100% fun.  Grow up or go away.

Question Allan......  On what basis are you making your comments.

Have you go anything?????

At last some reason from a Mono sailor.  Thanks Isis.

Whilst I've never owned a cat I have been for a blast in them,and that was fun (4 miles across a bay was scarey but fun !) they just aren't what I'd want to race in.At our club we have quite a few that tear around our lake a breakneck speeds and they always seem to be having fun.Personally I just prefer monohulls.

Oh and when Scooby Simon goes past me in his Inter it is frustrating but hey.... thats life

I

keep your hair on, just my opinion, like I said!  if you don't like to read other peoples opinions, don't go on forums!

Had many viewers for your i17 in the last 14 months?

I like to read informed opinions.

As for the boat, Plenty of time wasters.  Wanna buy it?  You've obviously been watching it carefully !

Blimey! That's a lot of hair to keep on!!
Is that a sailing remake of "Gorillas in the mist"?

(Calm down, boys... It's only sailing after all!)

I think that about covers it.

Very subtle sail trim......  Sails are sheeted more because of the apparent wind we create.  You start with the sheets eased and as the apparent increases, sheet in.  If the boat slows, you ease sheet, build apparent and sheet in some more.  Also check out the leach of the mains......  With the new square tops, twist is very important too.  Easing the sheet will see very little boom travel outward.....  But watch the head of the sail as the top twists and more and more sail up high feathers into the breeze.  If done properly, you will also use a lot of downhaul to twist the head (we have 18:1 purchase).  Downhaul flattens the sail and opens up the head......  This is how we 'change gears'

May look like we sail everywhere with the same sheet tension, but to a trained eye, nothing is further than the truth......  Check them out closer and see what you think.

Adam May ?

Supposing your not talking super quick - I've finished in podium positions both in Toppers and 29ers at large events. I would of said Simon fits in the catagory pretty well.

In the quicker boats there are less tactical decisions to be made as you can't always afford to tack every 20 seconds because of the distance lost but as you're going so fast you have to make dececions at a similar rate. Also when its comes to making the decisions you have to be alot more proactive to what's going on around the race course or you can lose huge distances. I like both slow boats and quick, but I suppose it's just personal preference and everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Don't really see two hulls bodged together my thing though!

I think the problem here is the lack of cat sailing in the uk,

I know this is a generalisation but when you compare the amount of cat sailing that goes on in europe it is a much bigger sport, alot of people in the uk wont ever even consider trying a cat, but im sure if they did they would realise why alot of people leave dinghys for good once they have raced the high proformance cats.

in my opinion alot of people try dart 16s and old hobie 16s on holiday and this puts them off cats for good.

Funny how this thread has produced some of the most heated debate. 

I grew up sailing cats and prefer them to dinghies in many ways.  If I lived on the coast I would sail a cat by preference, but my lake is doesn't allow them, so dinghies it is.  But its not just the speed thing that makes me prefer cats.  I have little desire to sail a 49er or I14, so speed isn't everything.  Cats are smooth, easy to sail (not so easy to sail well), simple to rig, fun and the racing is just as good as in monos. You really need the right location for them though, big sandy beaches are a great help.  In my experience cats are much more popular abroad (UK perspective!), and in Holland they seem to out-number dinghies.

The reason Cats are more popular in Holland is that most of the sailing there is on the north sea and thru big rolling surf.  You cannot launch most (any?) mono's thru big rolling surf, where as you can cats.

and north sea water temperatures to complliment it.

Then again, cold seas mean better sea breezes when there is little or no gradient wind....

But we do not get quite the same rolling surf !!!!

And the previaling wind is offshore in GB on the NS coast, thus even less surf....

The Hobie Dragoon and KL16(?) are trying to fill that spot, but it seems the Hobie 16 mafia is so strong it beats off any opposition, leaving the youths with an old, difficult to sail unappealing boat to campaign. Brian Phipps has been amazing in his push to make cats fun for children, but the fact that he has had so much publicity doing in cats what many people do in monohulls shows how few people are following his lead.

I think if I could find a way of moving back to Falmouth, I would take up cat sailing, as I crewed Darts there every so often and had a great time. On a small lake in the Cotswolds, I'll stick with a Monohull.

IMO the problem is with the ISAF and the choice of the H16 as the yoof boat...

They choose the Hobie 16 as the youth boat - it is a horrid boat that no-one likes and the only reason people sail it is it progress upto the F18/Tornado - the guys who spent last winter at Grafham confirmed this, they did not like it and only sailed the H16 as they had no choice.

Given the choice between a Hobie 16 - old, slow horrid and a 29er, which would you sail.  I'd have sailed the 29er.  Brian Phipps does  agreat job down in Falmouth with the Dragoon's, but if we could get them all sailing (say) Spitfires, the world would be a much better place  

Exactly......   And so cat sailing suffers in the UK because we know how crap the H16 really is.....

its a shame when theres so many boats that sit down the club and only about 10 go out at weekends.