Protesting on the water
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1588
Printed Date: 07 Aug 25 at 9:31pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Protesting on the water
Posted By: Contender 541
Subject: Protesting on the water
Date Posted: 27 Mar 06 at 5:53pm
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Boats are coming to the mark One of the boats hit the mark Others see this and call for helm to do his / her turns Conversdations in the clubhouse afterwards because the word 'Protest' was not used Discuss ------------- When you find a big kettle of crazy it's probably best not to stir it - Pointy Haired Boss Crew on 505 8780 |
Replies:
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 27 Mar 06 at 5:56pm
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You would indeed need to hail "protest".
61 PROTEST REQUIREMENTS 61.1 Informing the Protestee (a) A boat intending to protest shall inform the other boat at the first reasonable opportunity. When her protest concerns an incidentin the racing area that she is involved in or sees, she shall hail ‘Protest’ and conspicuously display a red flag at the first reasonable opportunity for each. She shall display the flag until she is no longer racing. However,(1) if the other boat is beyond hailing distance, the protesting boat need not hail but she shall inform the other boat at the first reasonable opportunity; (2) if the hull length of the protesting boat is less than 6 metres, she need not display a red flag; (3) if the incident results in damage or injury that is obvious to the boats involved and one of them intends to protest, the requirements of this rule do not apply to her, but she shall attempt to inform the other boat within the time limit of rule 61.3. |
Posted By: Contender 541
Date Posted: 27 Mar 06 at 10:06pm
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Bugger Don't you hate it when someone else confirms that a 15 year old is right and you are wrong
------------- When you find a big kettle of crazy it's probably best not to stir it - Pointy Haired Boss Crew on 505 8780 |
Posted By: Black no sugar
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 9:40am
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Take avoiding action: make sure the 15-year old doesn't join the forum! ------------- http://www.lancingsc.org.uk/index.html - Lancing SC 
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Posted By: tack'ho
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 9:51am
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Did the boat do their turns? If not and they knew they had hit the mark and were attempting to escape the punishment on a technicality there may well be a infringement to the sporstmanlike condut rule (19?). Where's our tame judge? ------------- I might be sailing it, but it's still sh**e! |
Posted By: Ian S
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 10:39am
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I think you could argue this a number of ways, there is no requirement to actually protest a boat that has infringed the rules as a good sailor will acknowledge the fault and take their penalty, in this case bear in mind the requirement to get clear and then take the penalty. Hence the "first reasonable opportunity" does not mean that you have to yell protest as your first words, it is acceptable to ask a boat if they will be taking the penalty when they are first able to do so, if they refuse then this becomes your first reasonable opportunity to hail protest. But you must use the word protest. |
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 11:19am
I would argue stronly against this just for clarity. Hail protest and then withdraw it if they do their turn(s). Shows you are serious. ------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: tack'ho
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 11:33am
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depends on the venue, nats yes, club race depends. If its an experienced sailor who you'r fighting for overall series postion with and will understand what your up to yes, against a newcomer to the club/sport who may just need a little guidance and could quite easily be put off by a club oldie screaming protest at them, I think not. ------------- I might be sailing it, but it's still sh**e! |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 12:41pm
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No 2 ways. Say protest first and take it from there. Anything else you open it up for doubt and obfuscation. |
Posted By: tack'ho
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 1:16pm
As a sailor who has had to go over to a newbie after a race who didn't understand part of a rule was shouted at by a more experienced sailor who had made a poor start a was therefore mixing it up with backmarkers, I feel that it can be a little counter productive to shout protest at someone who doesn't know any better at the moment. Frankly if your being affected by the type of sailor who is still unsure about things you need to sort out your own sailing first, a friendly call of you should really do two turns there will often have a more beneficial affect than shouting protest. Different rules apply at the front of the fleet or at opens or Nats, as I said but I think you've really got to be taking yourself very seriously to wade in at the back. Mind you the old saying about moe shouting at the back is probably quite right. In fact we are instigating a start of season rules clinic to which only the less experienced are allowed to attend! I'm looking foward to seeing some older bolder sailors being corrected by a beginner this season ------------- I might be sailing it, but it's still sh**e! |
Posted By: Contender 541
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 1:38pm
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The incident actually invloved a lad who has been sailing for about 7 years and does know the rules. He also has a small problem with doing his turns, esp when it comes to club racing. I feel a lot of shouting coming on ------------- When you find a big kettle of crazy it's probably best not to stir it - Pointy Haired Boss Crew on 505 8780 |
Posted By: far canal
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 1:53pm
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not a lot o shouting , one word --- protest -- and if he don't do turns follow it through , he will soon get the message and respond to your calls . No point shouting and bawling , slows you down , shout protest and then get on with your race . Seems from this scenario you didn't know the rules , now you do don't let him off . Rule obeyance in Dinghy racing has become pretty poor , protests are rare .
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Posted By: tack'ho
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 2:48pm
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In that case let him have it ------------- I might be sailing it, but it's still sh**e! |
Posted By: Ian S
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 3:37pm
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getting slightly sidetracked.... if you hit a mark and someone yells protest, distracting you and causing you to hit it again.. could you protest that the hail had been unsportsman like as you had fully intended to do your turns at first opportunity etc?? :-)
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Posted By: far canal
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 3:59pm
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slightly sidetracked into planet absurdity more like |
Posted By: tack'ho
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 4:32pm
NO! mind you if they shouted protest followed by a stream of abuse....... ------------- I might be sailing it, but it's still sh**e! |
Posted By: Garry
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 10:25pm
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Its quite simple yet complicated.
If they should know better then its a hail of protest followed by the paperwork if they don't do their turns - no agression required (and if they can't or don't hear you then I would still follow it up). If they are obviously just starting to race then its a quiet word in the bar but depends on the rule broken as hitting a mark, port starboard, windward leeward should be known by everyone but the incident discussed in the dinghy development forum is a bit esoteric. Anyway I think as experienced racers we should give genuine beginners time and space, after all sailing an extra boat length is a small time penalty compared to getting tangled up with a novice, who on top of that, if upset may never race again. If you ask novices (just done L2)what puts them off racing they say its the shouting! If the protest could go either way then its best to stay out of the protest room unless you're prepared to do turns just in case. The problems are the people in between who you think should follow the rules but aren't that experienced... what I think is give them a chance, but only one. Anyone who sees an experienced sailor deliberately intimidating a novice with a false call (or bullying) has a duty to lodge a protest under rule 69. And as a quick straw poll how many here always call starboard without thinking about the tactical situation? no one will own up to that now... I have at times... but on balance (esp in handicap racing)if I'm going to loose less than a 1/3 boat length I don't tend to bother unless I gain an advantage out of it. ------------- Garry Lark 2252, Contender 298 www.cuckoos.eclipse.co.uk |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 29 Mar 06 at 12:21am
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a small point - but you cannot protest another competitor under rule 69. Only a protest committee may initiate a hearing under this rule. Intimidation would be protested under rule 2 Fair sailing. I believe that this rule should be used far more. Swearing, insulting behaviour or language should not be a habitual part of our sport. On another issue... the rules are the same if you are sailing in an evening club race or the final race of the Olympics. I believe you should always shout protest on the water. I also believe that somone should then explain, calmly, to the novice sailor therules and any infringement they may have made. If someone has infringed the sporting thing to do would be to retire. For club racing maybe an agreed retirement without a hearing should lead to a lesser penalty.The introduction of abitration procedures and other such methods are intended to do this. The basic rules for beginners are incredibly simple...if only many peopole who have been sailing for years took the trouble to learn them. Here is my version of the Racing Rules of Sailing for beginners (with apologies for the font size and all):
•I must keep clear of another boat when:
-I am on port tack and she is on starboard;
-I am to windward;
-I am astern;
-I’m tacking,
-I am outside of her and we are about to round a mark or an obstacle.
•I must:
-Avoid contact;
-Leave the other boat room to keep clear when I change course or when I acquire a right of way
------------- Gordon |
Posted By: Ian S
Date Posted: 29 Mar 06 at 8:14am
| That's pretty good that Gordon.. keeps it nice and simple without getting bogged down in the intricacies of the rules.. see too many people trying to sail the rule book in one on ones whilst the rest of the fleet disappear off into the distance |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 29 Mar 06 at 10:09am
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Garry's points are very valid, particularly in the general thrust towards education- but I still saying that the education must start with the use of the "P word". It does not need to be shouted! If we simply talk to a novice or improver post race they will never learn the protocol of how to ensure their own rights over rules issues. I make a point wherever I am, and no matter what the standard of racing, of simply using the word (having attempted to "coach" my opponent out of the infringement in advance where possible). And as the first thing I say. After that, and depending on the reaction I make a decision as to whether to push for turns, do nothing, or take it ashore for protest or discussion. If discussion I generally try and approach it from the point of view of what do you think happened - what rules do you think applied, and take it from there. Of course my emotions do get in the way - especially when the stakes are high!
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