rules query
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1585
Printed Date: 15 Aug 25 at 9:16am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: rules query
Posted By: limey
Subject: rules query
Date Posted: 27 Mar 06 at 1:11pm
| Two boats sailing dead downwind on the rhumb line.The boats are on opposite tacks and parallel with each other, but no more than a booms length between them.. The boat on starboard tack then very gradually sails a bit higher focing the port tack boat to sail by the lee . due to the change in angle the port tack boat must gybe (either inadvertently or intentionally), but due to the proximity of the boats there is no way that he can do so without his boom fouling the starboard tack boat. and naturally when the gybe occurrs contact is made. Who is in the right ??? |
Replies:
Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 27 Mar 06 at 1:18pm
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I would say the starboard boat is in the right. The port boat should anticipate this situation aring and take avoiding action and gybe early. If they hold on to long then they have not avoided the collision. ------------- Bonnie Lass Contender 1764 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 27 Mar 06 at 1:26pm
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Port was required to keep clear. As soon as Port got in a position where he/she could not gybe without contacting Starboard she/he was failing to keep clear and was breaking the rules. Port should have said something on the lines of "I can't gybe without touching you: bear away and I'll do my turns" What Port should have done was gybe before it got to that point.
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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 27 Mar 06 at 1:31pm
I agree as long as the course by the starboard boat was gradual and not sudden. I know you do not have to call but were I the starboard boat I would be letting the person on port know that they have to keep clear. Saves any hassle or misconception and eliminates the oh I didnt realise you were there argument. It does sound like a simple port starboard argument to me though. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: tack'ho
Date Posted: 27 Mar 06 at 2:53pm
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Option B for the port tack boat would be to slow down dramatically to make space. ------------- I might be sailing it, but it's still sh**e! |
Posted By: Garry
Date Posted: 27 Mar 06 at 5:14pm
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If you get in this situation you really need to gybe as soon as practicable after you reach two boat lengths from the starboard boat. Since the overlap is not established from astern the starboard boat can't luff as they please. This assumes you are both heading for the same mark.
Once you get a boom's length from the next boat you're not really keeping clear anymore ------------- Garry Lark 2252, Contender 298 www.cuckoos.eclipse.co.uk |
Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 27 Mar 06 at 5:22pm
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if starboard didnt tell the port boat he was there and needed to keep clear before luffing isnt it his problem because he isnt given port room. but otherwise port starboard incident. ------------- 600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it. Also International 14, 1318 |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 27 Mar 06 at 6:00pm
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"Sorry I didn't see you mate" isn't an excuse. Port tack need to keep a lookout.
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Posted By: Garry
Date Posted: 27 Mar 06 at 6:00pm
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There is nothing in the rules that says you have to tell the give way boat what you're doing. you do have to give them the opportunity to keep clear, but unless the port boat is suddenly transported into that position, they've had plenty of opportunity to keep clear. The important thing is that the starboard boat doesn't alter course in such a way as to prevent the port boat keeping clear. It would be very difficult for the port boat to demonstrate she was keeping clear once she got to a position where a gybe would cause contact. In my view the protest committee would consider how she got in that position in any protest. providing the starboard boat was generally steering a reasonable course to the next mark it would be a clear infringement.
ISAF definition: Keep Clear One boat keeps clear of another if the other can sail her course with no need to take avoiding action and, when the boats are overlapped on the same tack, if the leeward boat can change course in both directions without immediately making contact with the windward boat. ------------- Garry Lark 2252, Contender 298 www.cuckoos.eclipse.co.uk |
Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 27 Mar 06 at 6:04pm
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ill shut up ------------- 600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it. Also International 14, 1318 |
Posted By: Garry
Date Posted: 27 Mar 06 at 7:19pm
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Mike, don't feel too hard done by it often makes sense to talk to the boats around you to indicate what you intend to do, but except for calling water and protest I don't think there's a requirement for any other hail. But if,for example, a boat intends to tack at a windy gybe mark I'd rather know before I was committed to going outside him even though it would be him that infringed the rules. Racing is more than just sailing the course fast and insisting on your rights it's also about having a friendly (albeit rivalous) relationship with those you sail against. ------------- Garry Lark 2252, Contender 298 www.cuckoos.eclipse.co.uk |
Posted By: Prince Buster
Date Posted: 27 Mar 06 at 8:40pm
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we all make mistakes mike - don't worry about it...
------------- international moth - "what what?" |
Posted By: tickel
Date Posted: 27 Mar 06 at 9:42pm
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Whatever happened to good old bad language? Threats and intimidation usualy seem to work.......against me! ------------- tickel |
Posted By: Chris Noble
Date Posted: 27 Mar 06 at 9:56pm
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surely though port boat should have seen it coming and gybed early or sailed by the lee before hand to creat space and then gybe, which would in theory put them ahead assuming sailing by the lee in said boat was faster or even by slowing and gybing you would then be in a position to cover starboard boat or by just seeing it coming and gybing early you could have held your lane and thus water at the mark had it been a starboard rounding, and also if starboard boat had forced you up they would be sailign above their proper course as they were already on teh rhumb line.... many options and probably many more what a complex sport we follow ------------- http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=561 - Competitive Boat Insurance From Noble Marine FOR SALE: I14 2 Masts 2 poles 3 Booms, Foils Kites/Mains/Jibs too many to list. |
Posted By: limey
Date Posted: 27 Mar 06 at 10:45pm
| The two boats in question were Lasers and had been parallel and overlapped for a good 500-600 metres since roundind the windward mark.. They were both running directly for the leeward mark about a further 300 metres away. The slight alteration in course (about 10 degrees above the layline) by the starboard boat brought them much closer together and the port boat reacted by bearing away until the inevitable gybe at which point there was contact from the boom of the boat previously on port. As port was sailing by the lee there was no chance os slowing down as sheeting in would also have caused an involuntary gybe. Had starboard boat informed port of his intention then the port boat could have gybed before they were at such close proximity. Does this not constitute giving sufficient opportunity to keep clear ??? |
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 27 Mar 06 at 11:21pm
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No, It is the Port boat that has to keep clear. Simple as. On port you need to take care, simple as that - "I did not think you would do that" is no defense. ------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: CurlyBen
Date Posted: 27 Mar 06 at 11:35pm
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Sorry if I'm wrong, but I thought there was no need to anticipate what someone might do, only to respond appropriately? In which case "I did not think you would do that" is an admission of not keeping clear.
------------- RS800 GBR848 Weston SC |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 4:11am
To a very small extent: if starboard changes course radically in an unpredictable manner port has a few rights, but keeping clear is an active not a passive action. If you course is converging with a right of way boat then you must act. |
Posted By: tack'ho
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 8:12am
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Not the only way of slowing down a boat! try going to sit on the transom. Sometimes sailing slow is a skill in itself. ------------- I might be sailing it, but it's still sh**e! |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 9:59am
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If they were overlapped since the rounding then it is still a case of the port boat must keep clear. We get a lot of this in our Wednesday night series when winds are generaly light and boats like Lasers tend to sail strange courses looking for wind (I used to do it all the time). When you get close to the mark you would find an Enterprise on port telling you that you had no rights because you had come from half way across the lake. The usual reply was I am on Starboard, you are on Port you must keep clear (this was outside 2 boat lengths). They would then gybe hit you and call you to do turns for not giving them room. It only went to protest once and for some reson the protest committee went against the starboard boat (don't know why I was not involved). This was when a run would take 10 minutes and the Laser would be approaching the Enterprise overlapped for 5 of them... Hard choice but if you are on Port then you should keep clear (IMO) of a starboard boat unless you are running downwind and inside the 'zone' in which case you are entitled to water (if you are inside boat) ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 4:14pm
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i thought if you are on starboard coming into a mark it doesn't matter if there is anyone on port inside you because they are on port so they have no rights. don't the rules say if there is confusion remove the mark from the situation. so in your case jeffers i cant see why starboard was penalized. ------------- 600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it. Also International 14, 1318 |
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 5:27pm
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At 2 boatlengths on a staboard rounding, port boat has rights to water. So many people do not know this it is scary. This is one reason what these courses are not used much if possible. ------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 5:29pm
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but the rules tell you to remove the mark if your confused. ------------- 600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it. Also International 14, 1318 |
Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 5:38pm
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rule 18.1 ...however this rule does not apply b: while boats are on opposite tacks.... ------------- 600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it. Also International 14, 1318 |
Posted By: Garry
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 6:15pm
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You need to quote the whole exception to rule 18... While boats are on opposite tacks, either on a beat to windward or when the proper course for one of them but not both is to tack to round or pass the mark.
In this situation one boat is required to gybe to round the mark. It is also unfortunate that in the Ent / Laser example the protest committee didn't clarify the situation - this would be one to appeal (depending, of course, on the facts found. ------------- Garry Lark 2252, Contender 298 www.cuckoos.eclipse.co.uk |
Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 6:23pm
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yes but the boats are on oppositetacks so starboard has right of way under rule 10 doesnt he? ------------- 600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it. Also International 14, 1318 |
Posted By: Harry44981!
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 6:23pm
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Mike, on a starboard rounding leward mark (never used a t championships unless it is part of a gate), a port boat is intitled to 'room', when overlapped at the 2 boatlength circle with a starboard boat. ------------- |
Posted By: Garry
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 6:51pm
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It doesn't matter whether its a port or starboard rounding rule 18 gives the inside boat room, regardless of tack. The only exception (for opposite tacks, overlapped at 2 boat lengths) is a starboard rounding of the windward mark when the rules are considered as if the mark wasn't there. ------------- Garry Lark 2252, Contender 298 www.cuckoos.eclipse.co.uk |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 29 Mar 06 at 9:50am
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Hence why on a Starboard rounding of a windaward mark you can stuff a boat on Starboard if you are on port. Just Ensure you will keep clear if your course does not change and don't let the starboard boat tack in your water (if they do they should do a 720). They way to counter if you are on starboard is to slow up and ensure that you force the port boat to tack off, then you are free to tack. It is scary how many people do not know these relatively simple things. We are better now through a series of informative articles where some of these situations have been analysed by our rules guru and printed in the quarterly newsletter. He does detail what each boat could (or should) have done to gain the most or minimise the loss. The golden rule is always try and keep out the way, if you end up fighting with another boat for the same piece of water you are only going to slow each other down and maybe let a lot of people through. Had this at a leeward mark at the first SGP, we were coming in just behind a huge group, I called for the helm to slow up...we did, huge gap appeared as everyone had a wide exit and up we popped, made about 10 places in 1 rounding. Just my 2p.... ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 29 Mar 06 at 9:57am
The right to water is established then the closest boat reaches the 'zone' (commonly defined as 2 boatlengths of the closest boat). It does not matter if the inside boat is a mile away, in theory they are still entitled to water (of course they would not be infringed by the other boat rounding up). The way to be sure at a leeward mark is to be inside boat (it does not matter if it is a port or starboard rounding) and on starboard. You must remember though that is you are the outside boar and the inside boat needs to gybe you must give them room for a 'seamanlike' rounding (ie enough room for a normal rounding given the conditions and amount of sail handling required). If they gybe and their boom hits you in theory you are in the wrong unless you can prove they did not make a seamanlike rounding. What I tend to do is give enough room and make a smart rounding and hopefully reach off underneath them and gain clear wind. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 29 Mar 06 at 3:54pm
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so much information. where do you all find it? is it somwhere in the isaf cases? ------------- 600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it. Also International 14, 1318 |
Posted By: Harry44981!
Date Posted: 29 Mar 06 at 4:12pm
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The slowing down trick mentioned by Jefferes works a treat. at the topper nationals last year there were about 30 boats trying to round the leward mark in 5 knots, with the tide pushing them downwind- you can imagine the chaos! I slowed down, and snuck into the 1 boat lenght gap that had opened up without infringing the rafted boats who were drifting with the tide away from the mark! About the only thing I did right all week! ------------- |
Posted By: Garry
Date Posted: 29 Mar 06 at 5:07pm
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Mike
A lot of this stuff turns up in Y&Y or the other magazine on a regular basis ... if you've been a subscriber for a while you will have read most. Also many of us have a guide to the rules book which gives examples - if every 4 years you buy a book by a different author you end up with even more examples of the rules. Then of course there's just sailing and gaining experience as you go along, courses, class coaching, club coaching - If you've been sailing a long time then you tend to know a lot (although not everything) - problem is some of it might be wrong  ------------- Garry Lark 2252, Contender 298 www.cuckoos.eclipse.co.uk |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 29 Mar 06 at 7:27pm
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Just stuff I pick up from talking to people and I had flicked through the ISAF case book on a couple of occasions looking for definitions/test cases. Most of it comes from analysing a situation after a race, measuring the rules against it and working out what to do next time. Simple really....(haha) ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 30 Mar 06 at 4:10pm
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i have a rules book but i have only been a subscriber to y+y for a year. ive seen some of the rule sections in y+y but not this one. ------------- 600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it. Also International 14, 1318 |
Posted By: billpayer
Date Posted: 31 Mar 06 at 10:59am
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Lots of opinions here and all good areas for discussion. Just a couple of spanners in the works...some of these rules are different, or removed altogether in team racing, so be aware of these differences, the most interesting is the removal of rule 18.4, allowing you to sail the other team off the course. For clarification, the book 'The rules in Practice' with drawings shows exactly the situation that started this thread, with two boats on a run on opposite tacks. Have a look, it shows all the options, quotes the rules at the appropriate points and gives a good flow through various options. |
Posted By: Hector
Date Posted: 01 Apr 06 at 2:42am
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There are quite a few sites with 'quizzes' to help you learn the rules. One good one is at http://www.ukhalsey.com/ - http://www.ukhalsey.com/ go to the site and click the link in the leaft hand menu - you do have to subscribe. |