Sailing Anarchy makes it the Int. 14 - OK, I'm biased 'cos I sail 'em, but spot on I say!

http://www.sailinganarchy.com/editor/2005/2005_SAs.htm - http://www.sailinganarchy.com/editor/2005/2005_SAs.htm

See particularly the comment that "everone who touches this dinghy gets really excited about sailing it" - which is what the 14ers mean by "14's are forever". Once you've tried one, nothing else quite comes up to it.

Others will have different views of course...

Best boat race?

Next one I compete in, whenever or wherever it is

What the....

This is why almost all the 14's have died in Sydney and are sailing 12's

And why they only seem to be sailed out of Itchenor in the UK... It seems that every open meeting is there as well!

I think SA were more looking at the "boat of the year" type thing. Are they based in America? The I14 seems to have been doing very well over there recently.

What would the boat of the year have been over here? The Xenon?!

i will put you out of your misery: it was the feva ((i think) if not then it won something over there)

I sail a feva so please dont be too mean about it. please.

[QUOTE=JimC]The 14 is a very good boat these days. They bit the bullet and ditched all the stupid rules that made the 80s I14 something of a joke amongst those who knew something about the international state of the art.

QUOTE]

Do you have the figures to show whether the boat is more popular now or in the 1980's? Were the old "stupid" rules more or less popular then the new (clever?) rules? The boats were certainly slower, but could more people manage them? I know I used to crew them occasionally on the Thames in the very early 80's (sailing early 70's designs, usually) and I could jump in and cope. I doubt that it is possible any more without rather more practice and experience (I was in my mid teens).

Very biased on this, I'm afraid......but depends how you define "race".

Are the criteria about:

"equality" as created by a 1 design?

a boat that can perform in a broad range of conditions?

Appreciate that everyone will have a different definition, however for me you are probably looking at either a fireball/505/flying dutchman if you want the best design.

CW

I have never seen a current rules international 14 in a race in britain, mostly because I have never been to the Itchen but that doesnt' mean I don't belive that there is good racing. In fact I belive that they are fantastic race boats, but I also know for a fact that the FD, furball and 505 have superb racing.

Well given that SA is an American site and there were no USA boats at the fireball worlds it makes it kind of unlikely the fireball would of won.

In fact most of the sailors Ive spoken to in the USA have hardly herd of the Fireball although they have all herd of the FD and 5o5.

And as somone said above, anything that can get Americans exited about dinghy sailing has to be doing things right

Jamie's right - just cos you didn't see it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. In FD world, the same something good goes on year after year. We get to sail a fast, thoroughbred, forgiving boat that also happens to be stunning to look at, in the company of like-minded souls who can see through the SMOD hype. All over Europe there are people who've NEVER seen an RS of any description! Imagine that! Obviously that means that the entire RS fleet is a figment of our collective imagination.

The best/worst debate is at best pointless and at worst puerile and insulting. It is worth thinking about why some classes seem to inspire lifelong loyalty and affection, while others are regarded by all who sail them as "this year's thing" and are dropped as soon as "next year's thing" comes along. Discuss....

Yup - sorry all, I hadn't intended my comments to end up as a development vs smod thing.  There are clearly good and bad on each side of the equation.

My definition of the word "race" was about a boat being able to perform across the wind-range.  At all points of sailing.  And a boat that challenges crews both tactically and on straight line speed.

To be fair, most SMOD designs (my opinion only, please note...!) tend to have a hole in their performance somewhere.  So if you take the 29er - clearly the light wind performance isn't the same as that of heavier breeze - same as a 420. 

Look at a 49er/musto skiff/700 and the like, and you see capsizes allowed for in the handicap..!

That to me is why fireballs/505's and FD's are more thoroughbred performers - usually a result of a more flexible / adjustable rig, and several decades of development.

Also, SMODs can't have it both ways.  Their marketing always alludes to....bang for buck...., so it does stand to reason that for greater cost you will probably get more thoroughbred kit.

Appreciate that this is my view only...!

CW

Well Im not certain about THE best but the Topper has done very well considering it is generally childrens first boat they learn to sail in and the fleet is now 250+  who race competitively and the top end of the fleet are awesome sailors....even though they have the most experience in a Topper they are so good that they can jump in pretty much anything and you see them performaing well after a bit of practice.

Maybe it is indeed the 505. Perhaps never having been an olympic boat has made this a stronger class (FD, 49er, Firefly?)

Cost is the draw back IMHO.

otherwise the humble laser

This whole debate shows up the futility of the best/worst debate. Freddie may be right - it may be the 505, for Freddie. For me, I'll live with the rude comments of ignorant people, I'll live with the logistical nightmare of getting the boat under cover to work on it, and I'll live with not having fleet racing at my club and small fleets at Opens. Why? Because NOTHING feels like an FD! Sure there are faster boats, and boats with bigger fleets (even one or two faster boats with bigger fleets!) but no other boat gives me the same feeling.

If there was a "best", surely everyone would sail that? Best for me is not the same as best for Freddie, but both our opinions are valid. I guess we would use different criteria, so that might lead to another thread: How do we choose the classes we sail? What is important and what is completely irrelevant?

Neil

Excellent point hidden in here, the qulity of a boat is entriely dependant on the sailors and the support, the topper is not a great boat measured on weight/performance/etc criteria but alot of time and money put into from a lot of people/organsisations makes in a fanatastic class (for kids), to see this at a lower level the Blaze has be rescued by some really keen focused folk in their class assoc.  Its people what counts ya know!

Here is what SA wrote about the I14 when they awarded it the best race boat category. Seems to me that last point is then one evry class is looking for. Touch it and your hooked........

http://www.i14.org/ - International 14 dinghy class today seems like a great fix for fast boat blues.  The class is solid, the competition can be found in many places, including Japan and Hawaii, the class managed to control the boat’s development while allowing its member to play with the foiling systems that allowed the crews to try different options with the rig and sails.  It seems to be that everyone who touches this dinghy gets really excited about racing it and that puts it on top of our list.

That is what everyone says about their class - sailing is addictive.

Most posts go like this:

I would just like to say how stupid this best/worst debate is and how I hate the SMOD development arguments which are futile because evryone knows SMODs are the best.

With all that in mind, I feel for no given/justifyable reason that -insert your class name here- is by far the best because, after you touch it once, you are hooked.

yes......smods offer a great product (and great racing) within finite limitations.  I won't deny the envy of turning up at Grafham to see over 100 RS200's competing in their inlands last October.  So clearly the majority think so too.

However, in terms of racability (the best race boat) does the simplicity of a boat like the RS200 (just an example - please hold the firing squad...) make it the best boat to race?

As an example of just 1 current development class discussion - in the 505's we are currently considering hound heights.  The German Rig (recently dominant) has hounds (and spreader bracket) about 4 inches lower on a stiffer mast section (so the mast tip doesn't disappear over nose on the first wave) .  Thus the GB rig has more rig movement in its middle section - developing potentially less power in 8-12 knots, in exchange for more performance in the breeze & waves.

So would you say that a class that never considers it's rig control to this level was giving it's sailors enough of a challenge?  A boat where you just "pull on XYZ control until the rig flattens off totally"? (not the RS200 - but there are many classes where this is the case)

Personally not...although this is all horses for courses, I would struggle to support a boat where there are flaws that can't be minimised as the ultimate racing boat.

Chas W

(PS the rs200 is a fabulous example of a decently designed smod, with a well run committee etc)

Nicely balanced posts, Charlie and Neil, so I'm just trying to throw a few ideas around in response rather than to argue with you.

"So would you say that a class that never considers it's rig control to this level was giving it's sailors enough of a challenge?"

Maybe the answer could be "yes"....and "no".

        In the development classes and loose OD classes I sail, I sometimes have LESS control (in one way) than I do in the SMODs. It depends on your definition of "control". You can't control when the other guy's sailmaker creates a leap in performance, so you actually have less control over your performance on the course (without buying new sails =$$$$). You can't control it when someone flies the world champ's hull in and therefore gets a speed advantage....well you CAN control it, by spending $$$$$$$$$$$$, but not otherwise. That could be seen as a loss of control that more than compensates for being able to control mast bend
       If, as Charlie said, the German rig in 505s is now "totally dominant" in one sense everyone who hasn't got one is "out of control" in that their performance is affected by someone else's new gear, aren't they?
       In a Laser, I feel totally in control of the rig in one sense, because I have exactly the same gear as the guy next to me and therefore spending power, ability to ship the world champ's gear in from Europe or get the Olympic medallist's hull etc doesn't count.      
        As far as the challenge....it's enough of a challenge to beat guys like Robert Schiedt and sail in big fleets anyway! The loose-class guys don't generally do all that well in SMODs, therefore indicating perhaps that there is a distinct challenge in sailing SMODs that is often discounted.
       Yes, SMODs have flaws as boats, and probably more than development classes or other ODs. But every racing boat has flaws.....John Westell admitted that the shape of the 505's flare is "flawed" compared to the Coronet's shape, because he had to cut the 505 down to Caneton restrictions. This doesn't mean, of course, that the 505 is not still one of THE great boats and vastly respected by even current designers.....we just overlook that slight compromise Westell made.       
        The free-est of classes, the Moth, has restrictions based on the width of the Austin A40 and it may well be faster if it was wider (it would certainly be quicker if longer, just like the 18s would be). But we don't spend too much time sl*gging off Moths and 18s for being "too short".      
        There are several restricted classes that are, objectively speaking, simple too short for full design efficiency. The fans say that just makes them more fun, and they are right in that most important of respects. But the same people who can happily overlook the fact that their steed nosedives or struggles in some winds 'cause it's so short, then feel free to complain because about the cleat placement on SMODs.....it seems strange to be able to overlook a major "flaw" yet highlight a minor one.

The World’s best race boat..............  what a pointless statement in my opinion. Everybodys preferences are different and if you have the means and ability to, you will be sailing the best boat in your mind, whether its a Laser, FD, Contendender, Tornado, 505, Topper, 49er, Cherub..............the list could go on and on. There is no definative "best boat" and maybe that's why we have so many great classes within the UK. To declare one boat as being best seems very narrow minded and for calling it the "best", other classes could also posses the same qualities. Development-wise you could parallel the 18 foot skiffs achievements to the I14s........

(sorry bumble if I'm echoing your comments)

Chris 249.  Nice thinking....fair points.  We all like different things, then....!

So if you could cross two classes to make an Ultimate racing craft, which would they be?

Combining the Merlin class and the Rocket class might make for a good 14 foot boat - oh, rats, been done already...

How about an FD built 20kg lighter, with a 5oh kite? What you reckon Charlie, enough to tempt you from the little boat?

On a serious note, Chris is 100% right. All boats are compromised, the fascinating thing about dinghy sailing is that there are so many different compromises available. Pick the one that suits you, and go with it! There are lots of people who still love their GP14's. Are they wrong? What about Tinker Tramp sailors? Mercers Park used to have a Tinker Open, maybe still do, and they were a very enthusiastic bunch. Not my cup of tea, but so what? I sail what most of the UK scene regards as a dinosaur, but I love my dinosaur. Could I win in the Champ's boat? No! Could the Champ win in my boat? Oh yes! I'd still like some thoughts as to why people sail whatever it is they sail. Anyone?

yey. merlin rocket!

they are just gorgeous boats to sail!  plenty of string, very tactical racing, salcombe week and nats (2 weeks on a beach!), brilliant socials, great feel to the boat in all cond around the whole race course, amazing in breeze and waves and come on, what more can u want in the world than a one string raking system?!  its brilliant!

and u can get an old boat and still be comp whatever people might say!  i've sailed 45 yr old boats and won so...

bad sides, uk only- no sunny worlds in feb to cheer u up.  not to big a fleet in scotland (where im going to uni so...) and a new one can be pretty pricey (but with a bit of love and care they hold thier value quite well)

thats what i think anyhoo

i sail a feva.

good points: the hull is durable, its great in waves and wind. tacks like a dream easy to learn in. just right weight on helm unless its on its ear. oh yeh the sailors nice too. good open calendar cos of rs association. great training in the winter.there must be more.

bad points: needs a crew (most people anyway but i can manage it in f3-4), kites to small, im too fat for it. hulls are plastic so not stiff. the older ones have a habit of snapping in 3 at the transom. and anything else you lot can think of.

I sail musto skiffs(202 ronstan), i14's (1522 Ronstan) and an 18(barron & smithers henri lloyd) because I like going fast! sometimes with friends other times by my self.

simple realy

And the 14 is the best of the 3

I'm happy to come guest in an FD anytime.  They still are one of the alltime greats.

---------------

Okay - here is my vote for the mixed design boat.

Flying Fifteen and 18 foot skiff.  Ditch half of the keel weight, and add a vertical rudderblade.  Massive Symetrical kite, as we want this to be a boat with some challenges for the crew...!  Probably some integral (non-scaffold) stubby wings that compliment the lines and design (rather than make it look like a building site).

Lose the foredeck and apply a self tacker to the jib.  probably 3 crew - with 2 trapezing although you would probably want to make the hulls about 3 feet longer to allow it to carry the extra weight.

Chas W

Charlie - you'd be very welcome, as would anyone else who fancies it. PM me if you have a free weekend

Neil

Nah - wasn't aware that anyone had attempted anything like that before.

Of course - once you change the weights, the floatation lines all change - I just liked the idea of something with a light keel that would just about surf upwind and probably have way too much canvas for the downwind stuff.

Tempestish/A-raterish/Flying 15ish, but with more kick

Anyhow, nuff on that.

CW

Like all of these 'best of' surveys, there are winners and loosers. The I14 is an exceptional boat, but you cannot race it with smaller crews, ie children, so for those people its not going to be the best race boat. But overall it won so round of applause for the I14.

But in the real world, with us real people, what realy is the best boat/race boat. I think and hope it's the one you either sail now or the one you want next. We all want to make the best or our own current boat and aspiring to our 'next' race boat is something a lot of us work for. Hopefully it turns out right, I know it turns out expensive........... 

If you are NOT saving/dreaming for you next race boat, then maybe the one you have now is best, but it might not register in international surveys, but do we mind?