Peacoq: dead end or the way ahead.
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13995
Printed Date: 07 Aug 25 at 1:43am Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Peacoq: dead end or the way ahead.
Posted By: Do Different
Subject: Peacoq: dead end or the way ahead.
Date Posted: 26 Jan 23 at 5:32pm
https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/258024/First-look-at-boot-Peacoq-foiling-doublehander" rel="nofollow - https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/258024/First-look-at-boot-Peacoq-foiling-doublehander
Personally a dead end but other opinions undoubtedly differ.
For me sailing is at heart a simple pursuit and the more complicated it becomes the less it appeals. Sounds a bit plinky plunky but lots of extras are a distraction from the "mindfullness" of "doing sailing". edit add: it seems I'm not so do different as do what I like and ignore the latest must have.
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Replies:
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 26 Jan 23 at 8:39pm
Looks like a foiling Fireball. Not my cup of tea either, doesn't appear to be any statistical evidence to suggest high tech boats are doing anything to reverse the decline in sailing.
------------- Robert
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Posted By: Dakota
Date Posted: 26 Jan 23 at 9:36pm
Dead end, but it’s just nice to have some thing to comment on
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 27 Jan 23 at 1:06pm
Should help deter wild swimmers
Room at the mark will be a frequent cry
------------- Robert
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Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 27 Jan 23 at 7:26pm
More accessible than what ? Prices seam closely guarded, doubt you will get change from 20K
Lifting the windward foil sounds very dangerous, they don’t have any pictures I can find on the website.
140kg 14ft boat?
Sure it is a fantastic boat to sail but minimal market potential, Foiling is very old hat now and still not taken up by a major dinghy manufacturer.
------------- Tink
https://tinkboats.com
http://proasail.blogspot.com
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Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 28 Jan 23 at 7:46am
cant see it foiling too well at 140kg. A GP14 is 133kg.
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Posted By: Dakota
Date Posted: 28 Jan 23 at 1:15pm
Originally posted by Paramedic
cant see it foiling too well at 140kg. A GP14 is 133kg. |
It’s does seem unnecessarily heavy for a modern boat . Is it a all in weight including foils and mast ? 
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 28 Jan 23 at 3:25pm
Their website says it weighs 130 'equipped' (which I take to mean ready to sail), about the same as an RS400, a GP hull only weighs 133kg, ready to sail it must be at least 170kg. FWIW the Sail World article on the Peacoq says the weight is 140kg and the base price is €28,000. https://www.sail-world.com/news/244397/World-premiere-of-the-Peacoq-at-Boot-Düsseldorf
------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
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Posted By: The Q
Date Posted: 28 Jan 23 at 3:48pm
Most clubs in the UK are in very limited waters, there are few places in the UK where , you get smooth water, steady air,and distance enough to stay on the plane. In my local waters you can be tacking every 30 seconds in a normal mono hull, all those fins would do is slow you down.
I think that will have and even more limited market here than the International Moths.
------------- Still sailing in circles
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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 28 Jan 23 at 4:09pm
I was going to say 28k then I thought better check a 49er, much the same money. I suppose high end dinghies have always been luxury money.
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 28 Jan 23 at 4:17pm
The designer stated on the video if you get tired you can sail it in displacement mode, doesn't appear to be a dagger/centre board, foils appear to completely leave the water when retracted.
------------- Robert
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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 28 Jan 23 at 4:54pm
Hardly a feature is it, otherwise I'm guessing we would be talking swamping or sinking? Generally things which are claimed to work in two dramatically different modes do neither very well.
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 28 Jan 23 at 6:21pm
Never foiled, is it more tiring than displacement sailing?
------------- Robert
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Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 28 Jan 23 at 7:30pm
Originally posted by 423zero
The designer stated on the video if you get tired you can sail it in displacement mode, doesn't appear to be a dagger/centre board, foils appear to completely leave the water when retracted. |
You probably didn’t notice it, there appears to a a dagger board in front of the mast, look at video at about 50seconds. Probably not as odd as it sounds as there is probably a lot of rudder area in displacement mode.
------------- Tink
https://tinkboats.com
http://proasail.blogspot.com
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 28 Jan 23 at 10:59pm
Yes, daggerboard in front of the mast...
------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
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Posted By: Oatsandbeans
Date Posted: 29 Jan 23 at 7:57am
I work in product development and I always think that the KISS principle is useful. It stands for Keep It Simple Stupid. From what we can see here I don’t think this guy has ever heard of it!
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Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 29 Jan 23 at 8:17am
Engineer and
😀KISS
😀roll don’t slide
😀one part two plus jobs
Are my driving principles- not a lot of evidence of any of those principles
The choice of name is odd a bird that is all about show but has limited flying ability
------------- Tink
https://tinkboats.com
http://proasail.blogspot.com
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 29 Jan 23 at 12:42pm
https://youtu.be/N3Bo78ZbAzY
------------- Robert
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 29 Jan 23 at 12:44pm
∆∆∆ Is this the largest single hander ∆∆∆
------------- Robert
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Posted By: Oatsandbeans
Date Posted: 30 Jan 23 at 8:30am
I like that -one part two jobs-maybe I will steal it for my next product development meeting
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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 30 Jan 23 at 8:35am
Classic one part two roles: Colin Chapman of Lotus, engine block carrying rear suspension.
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Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 30 Jan 23 at 8:55am
Originally posted by Oatsandbeans
I like that -one part two jobs-maybe I will steal it for my next product development meeting |
It actually came from an old book on C class catamaran design and how to win the little Americas cup
------------- Tink
https://tinkboats.com
http://proasail.blogspot.com
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 30 Jan 23 at 9:55am
Mainsheet and safety line
------------- Robert
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Posted By: fleaberto
Date Posted: 30 Jan 23 at 2:30pm
Any purchasers brave enough to name it 'Drew'??
------------- Lightning368 'All the Gear' (409), Lightning368 'Sprite' (101), Laser (big number) 'Yellow Jack', RS Vareo (432)'The Golden Rays'
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Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 31 Jan 23 at 9:09pm
Maybe not a total dead end, but certainly not the way ahead. If speed was what really counted, we'd have all moved to cats and boards eons ago. And any sport that ignores those who can't afford the (very high) price of a foiling dinghy is going to die - and it will deserve death for being so elitist.
The "BS to boats" ratio of foiling is far ahead of anything else in the history of sailing. Moths are doing well in the UK, fairly well in Australia, and very little anywhere else. The Nacra 17 is probably the least popular Olympic boat since they dropped the 12 Metre in about 1900. The Waszp is getting fairly good numbers but it's much less popular than the Aero.
Just why the sailing media continue to obsess so much about foiler boats that normally sell in such tiny numbers is an interesting subject. The other interesting thing about the subject is that although the sailing media is very ready to promote foiling, very few of the sailing media own foilers themselves. Why should anyone listen to people who don't practise what they preach, and therefore don't get to see the reality of this aspect of the sport?
Foiling's great for some but the reality is that many of us have tried it and given it up, or not become addicted (as I'm not addicted by my foiling windsurfer). The media isn't giving us that balanced view. probably because most of them haven't actually done it much.
Arguably, once you start foiling then boards are the obvious way to go about it, but even 75% (or thereabouts) of windsurfer foilers still do conventional windsurfing as well because of the problem of crashing in high winds, and the fact that the new Olympic windfoiler has turned out to be suited only for 90kg+ sailors could discourage many of the thousands of kids who currently race Technos and therefore reduce the popularity of windsurfing racing.
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 31 Jan 23 at 10:13pm
Originally posted by Do Different
Classic one part two roles: Colin Chapman of Lotus, engine block carrying rear suspension. |
Didn’t always work. Chapman developed the Marauder powerboat. The aft end of the prop shaft was supported by the rudder stock heel fitting. When the boat went astern the prop shaft went out of true and would break.
------------- Happily living in the past
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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 01 Feb 23 at 8:51am
David. Not surprising; also quoted as "if it breaks it's not strong enough and doesn't break it's too heavy". edit for typo.
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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 01 Feb 23 at 9:06am
CT249. Re BS to Boats. It is always so, magazines have to find copy and the mainstream is just that mainstream and not attention grabbing. Magazines and all media need revenue sources and that includes advertising, hence they are always going to feature the next must have gizmo or latest big thing. I also push bike and mountain bike around local working forest haul roads. It seems my simple light modest hardtail is no good any more and what I really must have is a gravel bike................., so it continues.
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 01 Feb 23 at 11:31am
Originally posted by Do Different
David. Not surprising; also quoted as "if it breaks it's not strong enough and doesn't break it's too heavy". edit for typo. |
Wasn't a great strategy for Lotus team drivers
------------- Happily living in the past
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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 01 Feb 23 at 1:26pm
David. Got a bit dodgy early days I believe with rear wings falling off. The cloud of Clark and Rindt does hang over Chapman. However he had a proven point with 7 F1 Constructors Championships, 6 F1 Drivers Championships and 81 F1 wins.
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 01 Feb 23 at 3:57pm
Originally posted by Do Different
CT249. Re BS to Boats. It is always so, magazines have to find copy and the mainstream is just that mainstream and not attention grabbing. Magazines and all media need revenue sources and that includes advertising, hence they are always going to feature the next must have gizmo or latest big thing. I also push bike and mountain bike around local working forest haul roads. It seems my simple light modest hardtail is no good any more and what I really must have is a gravel bike................., so it continues. |
It's the same capitalist dream that killed windsurfing, first grass roots racing and then the sport as a whole. It's almost entirely manufacturer led as they need to sell you something new every year.
------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 02 Feb 23 at 7:51am
Originally posted by 423zero
∆∆∆ Is this the largest single hander ∆∆∆ |
I think Club Med has that distinction, still.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 02 Feb 23 at 9:31am
Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 02 Feb 23 at 10:59am
I'd think no one is likely to be mad enough to try and make a larger single hander than Club Med anytime soon! It's a pretty safe record.
------------- Peter
Ex Cont 707
Ex Laser 189635
DY 59
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 02 Feb 23 at 11:39am
Can't find it, does it have a name ? Anyone got a link ?
------------- Robert
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Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 02 Feb 23 at 1:06pm
[message lost]
------------- Peter
Ex Cont 707
Ex Laser 189635
DY 59
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 02 Feb 23 at 4:42pm
That link is dodgy
------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 02 Feb 23 at 6:01pm
Bung Club Med Alain Colas into google.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 02 Feb 23 at 6:02pm
"Club Méditerranée: the crazy bet of a 72m sailboat for a single man" https://www.boatsnews.com/story/25504/club-mediterranee-the-crazy-bet-of-a-72m-sailboat-for-a-single-man
------------- Robert
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Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 02 Feb 23 at 9:01pm
Originally posted by Do Different
CT249. Re BS to Boats. It is always so, magazines have to find copy and the mainstream is just that mainstream and not attention grabbing. Magazines and all media need revenue sources and that includes advertising, hence they are always going to feature the next must have gizmo or latest big thing. I also push bike and mountain bike around local working forest haul roads. It seems my simple light modest hardtail is no good any more and what I really must have is a gravel bike................., so it continues. |
You're right, DD, but the level of attention that sailing media spends on the AC and other exotica has clearly changed dramatically, and we can check the numbers.
I also ride bikes and the difference is that the bike mags are promoting gravel bikes you and I can easily buy and ride outside our front door, whereas the sailing media is now promoting dinghies that cost as much as a full year's average income and which can't be used at many venues.
When our sport was booming the media was clearly much less into promoting elitist classes and events, and more conscious of the cost of the sport. For example, even when the UK had its early 12 Metre America's Cup challenges on, the AC took up only about 3% of the word count in major UK sailing publications. The percentage in international publications, even in AC years, was similarly low. Yachting World produced the Jack Holt designs and Yachting in the USA ran events like the America's Teacup regatta that gave the Hobie, Windsurfer and Laser their early fame.
I spend 10 years writing and running magazines, and we knew that what really got the attention of readers excited enough to buy the mags was stuff they could relate to themselves. That may have changed these days now that the media only needs to generate clicks rather than getting people to actually spend their own money on buying a mag.
There's some cultural reasons related to the industry that (IMHO, with hindsight) lead editors to promote the "grand prix" events. It's also just easier to do another piece on a new exotic design than it is to write an interesting piece on the grass roots. The end result, however, seems to be unhealthy.
In fairness, our hosts are just about the best at promoting the grass roots even if they do so less than they formerly did.
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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 02 Feb 23 at 10:51pm
What CT says makes sense and yes the push bike analogy was flawed as regarded difficulty of use. However have you seen the price of must have top end bikes, which the point I was getting at. Wireless gear shifting, active suspension and Ebikes can go to £10,000 if you want.
An interesting point about possibly lazy journalism, using manufacture's prompted promotion over going out and creating features. Mind you, real world economics rule and it's easy enough to see why.
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 03 Feb 23 at 10:02am
Would be remiss not to report on a new design, one that can be flown or displacement sailed.
------------- Robert
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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 03 Feb 23 at 11:15am
Quite correct. I asked the question as regards the future. CT questions the emphasis and balance as regards majority usage.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 03 Feb 23 at 11:16am
I don't think its so much lazy journalism as desperation in these hard times for the press!
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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 03 Feb 23 at 11:19am
Probably not wrong on that JimC
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 03 Feb 23 at 11:33am
Not many young sailors at my old club, lake to small for foilers, anyone seen anything that would suggest foilers are more attractive to younger people? They are the future after all.
------------- Robert
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Posted By: Old bloke
Date Posted: 03 Feb 23 at 3:34pm
Whether,or not, foilers are the future, there is no sign to date that they are any kind of entry point to sailing. Moths,Wasps etc are pretty difficult to sail and the easier ones like the Ufo are very compromised.
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Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 03 Feb 23 at 5:31pm
Originally posted by Old bloke
Whether,or not, foilers are the future, there is no sign to date that they are any kind of entry point to sailing. Moths,Wasps etc are pretty difficult to sail and the easier ones like the Ufo are very compromised. |
The UFO was at Weymouth when it was optimist nats a few years ago. It’s no exaggeration the optimists sailed faster, the UFO couldn’t cope with any form of chop.
------------- Tink
https://tinkboats.com
http://proasail.blogspot.com
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Posted By: The Moo
Date Posted: 03 Feb 23 at 6:37pm
Originally posted by 423zero
Would be remiss not to report on a new design, one that can be flown or displacement sailed. |
Exactly. I would be most disappointed if it was omitted.
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Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 04 Feb 23 at 10:55pm
Just to make it clear; I'm not suggesting the Peacocq should have been ignored, or that the journalists are really lazy. It's partly that it's easier to get copy on boats like the Peacocq, and that being inside the industry (as journos are) means that your viewpoint is tilted.
Just my humble opinion, but iIt was only years after I got out of the sailing media, and then got back in for one year, that I realised how skewed it makes one's perspective. Not only does the industry you deal with 9-5 have more economic incentive to sell new stuff than to encourage people to sail old stuff, but by definition the industry tends to be staffed with people who are heavily into new technology (much more so than the typical sailor) and because they spend 40+ hours a week dealing with sailing, they get bored with it more easily than the typical sailor who spends 40+ hours a week as an accountant, plumber or whatever. The industry insiders therefore seem to demand more novelty than the typical sailor does. The industry creates a very different view from that of the average sailor, which in turn changes the view of the journos.
It's also really hard to come up with a decent article on something like a Solo, Dart or Merlin; after all, many of your readers have spent years owning such boats and sailing them on the weekend. They know more about the class, the characters and the techniques than a journo knows, so it takes a lot of research to do an article with much depth. When it comes to more exotic stuff, it's easy for the journo to find out more than the average sailor knows, so there's an incentive for the journo to exercise that advantage.
When we look back at old mags we see that years ago, because of different economics in sailing and publishing and the different level of experience of the average sailor, magazines could have a very different approach and therefore they wrote much more about the grass roots (and also had much higher readership).
So it's not really laziness, just the fact that being inside any industry affects your view of it. There does seem to be a bit of a lack of hard-hitting questions or articles these days, IMHO, but it's easy to say that from the outside. Year ago I did a freelance article about a new cat and although it didn't say anything at all bad about the major established cat class and was meant to be very objective (for example, I quoted Glenn Ashby saying that the new cat was not as tough as the major established cat class) the latter's manufacturer pulled all their advertising from the mag. That meant the mag lost its second-biggest advertiser, but the editor took the long view and said that editorial integrity was more important than short term revenue loss. Given the current economic times, that is a harder line to take.
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Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 04 Feb 23 at 11:17pm
Originally posted by 423zero
Not many young sailors at my old club, lake to small for foilers, anyone seen anything that would suggest foilers are more attractive to younger people? They are the future after all. |
If you ask the foiling hysterics, it's easy. World foiling championships that normally get about 20 youth and juniors show that all the kids prefer foiling, whereas world "seahugger" championship with 400+ kids (like the Opti and Laser 4.7 worlds) shows that all the kids are bored with conventional boats. 
Old people have been telling us for years that kids all prefer skiffs, cats and foils and yet those darned kids never seem to get the message.
If kids do want to foil, of course, then one wonders why would they do it on a dinghy. If your foiling you don't need to drag a big heavy hull around and you're not normally sailing in less than 8 knots, so a board makes much more sense. Apparently guys like Tom Slingsby, Nathan Outteridge and Glenn Ashby are all windinging furiously these days and getting 18+ knots upwind at good angles.
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 05 Feb 23 at 10:22am
I should have worded it better, young people who have disposable income rather than parents disposable income. I have read many times of high performance sailors who sail slow boats on days off.
------------- Robert
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