Add into that the fuel price increases and the general squeeze on inflation is the concept that was so popular in the 80s and 90s no past?

Do we need to now focus on building class racing at clubs? 

You can't have a successful class without a base at grass roots. So to breed back decent national attendances we need to sail our boats at our clubs and promote our classes. If there is one a local open meeting circuit is a cracking place for the newly blooded club racers to cut their teeth travelling before moving onto bigger things like championships. 

Classes without a good club base are heading for trouble in the immediate/short term in my opinion.

Personally I'd say the dust hasn'tsettled from covid yet, people were not able to reliably plan their year until quite recently. Also I don't think the wind has been kind?

 I would like to do a few open events, but I don't currently own the boat I'd want to do them in, and I have a backlog of catchng up with family etc, the year is flying by. I don't think fuel price is all that, maybe people are more conscious of it, but a weekend away is not a big cost for someone who's spent £5k or whatever on a boat. I'm not focused enough to want to do that many events and I don't want to spend ages in the car getting to some 'orrible pond with no wind when I've got sea sailing on tap. You need to think about what you are trying to sell and who you expect to buy it. Being a middling club sailor some of the best events I've done have been fairly local, not too big, but with a spread of talent so club sailors will learn something. Some 'inter-club' events have been good too, a few neighbouring clubs joining up sometimes to boost fleets and ring the changes a little.

I have a Laser, but I'd struggle to be sure it's class compliant and I don't want to go and be outclassed by a bunch of near-olympians with a boat that's older than some of the sailors. In my other class, the boats which travel all seem to be somewhat newer than mine.

I can also say I've been put off a few clubs (and class associations....) by money grabbing and indifferent quality events especially when they run multi-class opens.

I think circuit sailing will continue gravitate towards a few select classes, with some other classes having strong regional events. It prbably looks differet if you live in the middle of the country with an event in day-trip distance most weekends?

The exception is bigger regional and national championship events, but in time I get more selective, and increasingly prioritise the off water experience ... I really don't need a week holiday in Hayling or Pwllheli anymore.

Classes like the Solo and the Merlin have pursued a route to have less, but bigger class supported events, no doubt identifying this need.

Maybe the ageing demographic will impact Open Meeting attendance, as might fuel prices.

With people looking at forecasts, if it’s bad the event could be a total flop for the hosts. 

Running an event requires lining up loads of volunteers… how many time will clubs continue to do this for a handful of visitors. 

My sailing kit was basic but functional, We didn't have fashion in sailing clothing in those days. I often had just enough to live the rest of the week after entry fees, fuel and beer. Accommodation was in the Costa del Cortina, food was from the club. Some of the best fun I had in my life, at that time. If you ever went to Hornet open in those days, you'll know what I mean

Life was simpler the fun was more appreciated.

It seems now so much is paid for boats, equipment and useless paraphernalia, that there is little left in the budget to get to the club, sail and socialise.

Many have been hooked on the marketing of the latest one design giving the best value whilst eliminating cheque book (oops credit card) competitive sailing

But Rs's, Lasers, etc cost 1000's new and just look at the cost of a Moth! That used to be the cheapest performance boat, but they lost their identity in the belief foils are some how better and is actually still sailing. Leave it to the speed record seekers.

It seems to me clubs make a lot of song and dance about some of these 'events', maybe we need something closer to simply inviting some visiting boats to join our racing? An extra start sequence, one more safety boat and an extra 'galley slave'.

If it's not a 505 Worlds Qualifying event, does it matter if the courses etc are just club standard, the point is to have extra boats for your own boats to race against, put your club 'on the map' , make friends etc. Keep the entry fee cheap, make a bit on the bar, keep the impact on club sailing low.

Obviously if you want people to drive 200 miles and have B&B costs etc, you need to up your game, but a lot of clubs could do something useful without anyone coming from a different county.

 that's 9 Clubs + North Norfolk week a group of another 7 clubs).

 There are many other open regattas /event throughout the summer season and some in the winter I see no shortage of clubs holding open events, My own Club Horning has 8 in a summer season..

As a sea club with no moorings of our own finding an owner of a committee boat, minimum of 3 rib crews to lay marks and cover safety. Plus all the paper works including risk assessments for QHM 

NOR SI's and organise food for all including Saturday night.

At one point the Thursday before the event we had 4 entries and in the end 25 so it was all OK.

The forecast was good for the Saturday so I am sure that helped the turnout. But to put the whole thing together and say get 5 or 6 boats  would do me in,. never mind the grief for the club sailors missing out on there sailing.

If people want to have open meetings the class needs to ensure a decent turnout or clubs wont run them.

But a a puddle sailor all my life it’s difficult to comprehend losing club sailing to run a open . 

As a small club, we would need to deplete our fleets to staff a 'major' open.

Key people would be missing the club racing, so it would upest the series results if the others raced. And the club racing would likely be a bit naff as a result. We don't necessarily see it as 'losing club racing' maybe it's 'fitting club racing around an event'? You don't have to club race every Sunday. Most people turn up maybe 3 out of 4 anyway, so the odd gap in the calendar does't hurt.

But it costs time and money to tool up for 40 boats, you don't want to invest that and have only 10 turn up. If we knew it was only 10 boats wanting a couple of races we could probably do that more casually together with the club racing.

Also,sometimes people who normally race something else will race in the open.

Retired three years ago and thought time to get travelling again, then Covid.  So this season I bought a boat to travel (still use the Laser for Club Racing) and one that would not need much practice and would make me feel able to sail anywhere - A Streaker.  Its an experiment.  First stop was Snettisham beach - fantastic sail on the Saturday with club sailors, but for the Open Meeting on Sunday no wind, not much water and lots of mud.  Inlands at Grafham, shared with  two other classes to make numbers viable - about 40 boats in total.  Saturday no wind and in the one race the classes got mixed up and was quite frustrating.  Sunday was nice wind, four races and race officer managed really well so we all finished together (but race separately) so quick turn arounds, finished by 3.30pm.  Reading the reports I should have gone to Downs SC last WE.  Now looking forward to some new venues.  Not going to win as too many professionals at top of the class - does this impact on numbers - ie a sail maker who wins all the chocolates? but so far enjoying the experiment.

In my mind, the main point of going to opens is for a) when club racing gets stale, and b) to improve your game, sailing against better people.

I'm happy for pro's, olympians and Nick Craig to turn up. It puts people who better than me, but not as good as they think they are, in their place.

And just now and then, you might get to cross  their bows.

Originally posted by turnturtle You can tell a lot about the class ethos by helping out at one of their opens … the Solo Class were a pleasure to watch from the committee boat and help drag trollies around for; another very widely popular adult singlehander, far less so…. To the point where I used to actively avoid sailing in my own club’s open for that class after overhearing visitors/guests complaining that some local boats weren’t CA members

CA membership is a difficult point. It's required for open meetings. If you let some people off, but not others, some of those who do pay might rightly get upset. OTOH it's a barrier to people doing their first event. The option to join for the weekend works for some AIUI.

I guess it comes down to whether we see a host club as a host and that we are guests, or whether we see them as a service provider to class event racing programmes?  

It’s run on a Saturday so it doesn’t stop club racing , we always get plenty of volunteers to be RO/ do rescue/ galley etc. The club thinks of it as a club event to be enjoyed by all.

Re class membership it’s not a problem as it’s not a BM class requirement to be a member to do your home open . You only need to be a member to do others clubs opens and the nationals . 

Round the buoys on the river outside the club, round the buoys up on Black Horse Broad, or a down river to a pub and back..

If we have an open, those classes not involved, do one of the others, for instance we had a down river open on Sunday, the dinghies stayed at the club and went round the cans..

https://www.facebook.com/HorningSailingClub

that makes a lot of sense... 

yep, and it doesn't help that parenting styles are different now - providing opportunities well outside of our desires and comfort factors.

I introduced my kids to sailing - they thought it was sh*t, or more specifically an inordinate amount of faff for something quite boring- I figured timing wasn't right (they were quite young) and we sold our family boat when it become financially impractical having moved the damn thing off the mooring less than 10 times in the final season.

Sailing being a PITA was then reinforced and made significantly worse on mandatory school sailing excursions in the depths of winter in the middle of Worcestershire in Topper Taz's....  I had no argument to counter that one.  It was miserable and one kid ended up in hospital with suspected hypothermia-  (the middle class kind, which isn't treated with bovril and a blanket)

I never thought I'd be watching ballet and basketball in some of my spare hours, but C'est La Vie!

Thoughts on getting another family boat - it's been discussed and ultimately dismissed, esp since marina fees are verging on triple what they were.

The problem for a two day event is that accommodation is increasingly a problem, especially for one night at a weekend, and taking account of the aging demographic, not only are you forsaking a day at the club, but also a a day at home getting stuff done.

I have long been of the view that the most regular open meeting attendees tend to have less going on at home ... either where they sail or live.

Just wondering why you need so many boats/ entries to make a profit . We normally use the rough rule that we need about 7 boats to break even . Our open numbers were down this year at 10 but we still made a small profit.

Do you have extra overheads to us like paid staff/rescue crew etc ? 
 

alternatively, I’d have to get my hands dirty and incur all sorts of body damage helping with the outdoor-housekeeping. I hate gardening with a vengeance. An open meeting is far preferable, although the racing at the club is invariably pretty hot, regardless. I can’t be the only one…

I totally understand your position now, even thought your position is completely different to a club like mine that’s totally volunteer based. 

nope - not the only one.  When we made the permanent move to Spain everyone assumed we'd be getting the typical villa-with-pool combo.  Absolutely 100% NO THANKS... one way to add additional cost and frustration to outside space is to acquire a giant piss tank for other people's children.

We bought a city centre apartment instead - assuming they're not locked down by officious police with machine guns - then there's plenty of communal outside space and a massive effin' beach for kids to run around on!

They've even introduced a new rig size by the looks of it... RS Aero 6

stand by for an 8 rig…

Imagine if the Streaker, Supernova, Solo and phantom held a joint Nationals.

Very true it’s a great idea , if people come to the opens. BUT if the higher cost puts people coming and you don’t run the open then no one win . No member benefit and no extra money coming into the club.

It’s a fine line to tread . 

I think the supernova have had about 100 boats at their nationals for the last few years on their own . They are definitely saying they have the same number signed up for this year . 

I did have a Supernova about 18 months. But it just didn’t float my boat so to speak.

Clubs are maybe taking too commercial a view?

It might be worth considering what kind of value for money the boat which turns up and come 25th might be getting? 

      That might be limiting numbers.  

  

Back in the dark ages, clubs put some value on the kudos of running a respectable open meeting and giving their sailors some better sailors to compete against. It was also more reciprocal, we go to their place in June, they come to us in July kind of thing.  

  

 Of course if you have a club GP14 fleet, then you are more likely to think of your club being part of a wider GP14 ecosystem than if you're just a PY club on the lookout for some cash cows.

100% agree there's no need to bend competitors over the table. £15 per day seems the going rate, but I'd fully expect that to increase given the increase in running costs. In the grand scheme of things the entry fee to an open is normally not a large cost, though this does depend on distance travelled.

Originally posted by 423zero For a long bank holiday weekend open, you are talking at least three hundred, even camping, but cheap if you enjoy it, even typing this is taking me back to one.

That's only true if you live miles from the event.

Many people have clubs with open events or potential for open events within driving distance.

Other people have accommodation options such as friends or relatives.

Back in the good old days, I recall members of the host clubs offering space for an airbed, free camping at several clubs, camping in member's gardens.

You can see how peole get value from their camper vans though.

Theres some truth in this.

How often do we travel anyway? Most classes are reducing the number of events partly to try and increase quality, but also partly I suspect because clubs are being more choosy about what they close to members for. 

The costs of a weekend away are much the same, if not more, in most of the 'growth' sports people keep comparing sailing to. Anyone who's mildly serious about cycling, athletics, whatever will bespending significant sums on travel. There  must be huge numbers of people in the UK spending upwards of £100 fairly often on weekends for their sport or hobby.

 

 

 But, is that any guide as to what people are prepared to spend to attend an open meeting when they've already invested in racing at their home club?  If people are not attending open meetings, is that due to cost? (quite likely for some young people perhaps??) or is it because the last few open meeting weekends they attended did not exactly fill them with the desire for more?  But this year, I suspect I'm not alone in not expecting to attend many/any open meetings because I'm too busy catching up other things which didn't happen over the last two years and haven't been able to plan my year around any sketchy class calendar that wasn't published in good time. Times are not 'normal'.

I don't know what the costs of this are, but almost certainly a similar increase to that of going from pottering with the local cycling club both in terms of time, entry feed and equipment.

I agree wholeheartedly that times are not normal and this is why some classes are struggling a bit. Interesting some classes are thriving, but are working hard for it.

Is this a new normal? You'd hope that fuel prices will reduce and stabilise but a big part of me thinks that covid and Putin have accelerated what was going to happen post Brexit anyway and these costs may be here to stay.

This 

I am not totally sure and I am sure others will correct me if I am wrong . 

But he crossed the line ( his post was vile ) once to often and mark put him on the naughty step and it looked like his posts had to be approved before they were posted . Then for some reason he stopped posting altogether. 

TBH it’s just nice to have a discussion with out the name calling 

I know, it doesn't matter for one journey a month does it?

But classes that are dependant on people doing 200 mile round trips two/three times a month may need to remodel.

Totally agree with most of the points you have made especially about the FUN bit.. There are a few things where I have a different point of view.

1) Protesting. Sailing is a self policing sport and it’s a bit like voting , if you don’t do it you shouldnt  complain about the outcome and to tbh I’ve found even a failed protest is enough to rein in cheating at least for that event.

2) Boasting about how much they have spent paying someone to do up their boat for them . Is this a vintage boat thing ? As I’ve never heard anyone do this at any event I’ve ever been to.

3) Two day events are great. The British moth class used to do quite a few of them 6 or 7 years ago and it was great have a chat and have a drink/food after sailing with out having to pack up and rush home. To start with they were very popular but got less so as the years rolled on to the extent there is only one in this year series ( and I think that has been changed to a one day event ) . I think for a lot of people they have become very time poor (as well as just poor ) and one day events can be shoe horned into peoples lives easier. It’s all about horses for courses and trying to understand what your class wants . Who would be a fixture’s secretary these days, 

I went in to it with the best intention: less is more, guaranteed class racing, supporting the class etc. and it was pragmatic as one of my personal barriers to opens before that were the round trips to the SC to pack and pick up the boat - 3 hours minimum usually.

I left thinking it could only work with a lot more free time and cash.

If I ever whinged about club membership fees before that year, I never did afterwards.... they're a total bargain all things considered!

The fuel cost is an issue but is it really THE issue ?.  On a typical round trip to an open the additional fuel cost isnt massive. Its definitely not prohibitive for local ish events

There are of course (and always have been) a large number of sailors who will use any excuse not to to travel despite saying they'd love to if it were'nt for fuel, family etc etc etc

Well done

As I see - the ones that want to travel find a way and the ones who don't want to travel find a reason not to i.e - ' I should be at this event/that event etc but fuel's too much/roads too busy etc etc'. 

These ones never go anyway

This year I'll be doing the Bala long distance (Jav helm),  Javelin Euros (crew), Osprey Nationals (crew) and Contender inlands.  Already did the 3000 nationals but that was at my own club.  I'd do more but have other interests too and still working.

Last I looked Bala had 130 entries; osprey nationals last year had 48 (?) so 96 sailors.  Contender inlands last year had 25.  Javelin events bar the euros are almost dead, 3000 events = one a year with a handful of boats.  

43 boats at that excellent sounding Blaze event ... not too shabby.

All very class and event dependent.

I like doing opens - good to sail against similar boats and/or do big or different venues - but feel I'm class switching to find them and maybe the last saddo who won't leave the party!  Back in the day the Javelins would hold a 20 boat + event every other weekend all summer (I'm told!) repleat with drunken antics and skinny dipping (there are photos).

These day I am sort of retired and I have the time but at nearly 60 no longer any interest . It’s just easier to work as shore crew for my wife as this means I can drink more with out have to worry about sailing the next day lol .

On the other hand since retirement , my interest in club sailing as never been higher . Am sailing every Wednesday and Sunday I can plus am even doing some pleasure sailing on the odd Saturday ( something I have never done in 30+ years of sailing .) 

It’s amazing what having some extra free time  and a boat that totally for filled everything your have been looking for in a singlehanded, to make you enjoy sailing .

Now I'm too decrepit, sleeping bags, tent's  etc are not suitable any more, so it still will be local opens only, and luckily there are around 20 clubs within 50 miles..

You have to defend that time ... my family know that Saturday 12.00 to 18.00 is allocated 

£50 for both single and double handed entries with a not insignificant % of that fee straight to a third party? 

No problem in paying out for what an event costs when hard working member clubs like Bala get the full return on their efforts. Can’t say I’m enthused by third party ‘organisers’ offering minimal event promotion, novelty tracking and little to the wider sailing group looking to get back travelling to events, outside of a small few at the sharp end. 

Hmmmm I think this is more a "time and place" thing than anything. Sailracer tracking at championships is very good, it's a useful training tool and provides interest away from the event. People do - believe it or not - log on and watch. Its really good for sponsor coverage and helps bring in more money to the event. In my experience in that environment the Sailracer fee easily pays for itself, but without knowing the ins and outs you dont see it.

I can take the point that at a smaller event it's overkill. £50 is a pretty punchy entry fee for a two day event for times gone by. But I cant see it being a hugely profitable exercise for either party in the current climate.

£50 for a two day long distance event is very reasonable,  particularly given the ever increasing fuel costs.  With a five mile course the ribs would have burnt through quite a few gallons.  The tracking played a valuable role in the safety of the event,  providing a location of all boats in real time,  which is very important as difficult for the PRO/safety to see all boats over the whole of the course at all times, particularly when there was poor visibility in the squalls. We also could see when people had capsized on the screen and relay to the safety fleet.   

SailRacer also covered the costs of event photography with Tim Olin

 https://enter.sailracer.org/eventsites//photo_gallery.asp?eventid=222604

At class championships the tracker may have a place but for open mixed events it offers little to the average paying competitor. Keen ones have long used their own means to track their progress by smart watches or similar if training was their goal. Sponsor coverage irrelevant for this event as there were none. Yes it was a small entry with forecasted weather playing a part, but lead in promotion from the ‘promoter’ was dire given the cut they take. Who then watches tracking of an event they don’t know is on? Who enters?

The Bala SC team were excellent and put on another top event as they do. An army of volunteers, a testing course, good race and safety management, everyone well fed and the cheapest bar prices in the land. All sadly top loaded by a third party that possibly made many think twice I would guess.

Welcome to the forum. Good choice of name 

 I can see Simon’s case for trackers from a safety point of view (if this is really the case) but I am not sure that I would want to have a tracker in order to satisfy the deliverables to the sponsor, in reality sailing is a closed event between the entered competitors and this is part of the enjoyment.  

The moment you add outside money to the equation greed takes over and the competitors enjoyment becomes compromised.

I think in many cases sponsorship is used to satisfy the event organisers delusions of grandeur.

I questioned the value of tracking ages ago and got shot down as a luddite.  Perhaps in a world where we are have got used to disclosing medical information to go to the cinema, this might be different.

If the tracking is 'valued' by people not taking part in the event, let them pay for it, either directly, or by receiving adverts.

Personally, I've found it a gross disappointment for a couple of events I've taken an interest in. It's no substitute for someone publishing a timely narrative of the day's racing.

You add cost to something, don't be surprised if you get less buyers.

Yeah... for the most part I don't believe entry fees are the big put off. Certainly if I believe it will goes to well deserving club.

But at £120 is questionable and it shows in the entries they have got. 

For the last few years entry for the 800s for 2-day opens seems to have hovered around £40-50. Which I think is pretty good value, split between two people. With 6 races that's about £5 pp/ph of entertainment. It's cheaper than a movie, or bowling, or most other form of entertainment. 

I reckon I would happily pay £30 a day, maybe up to £40 per day for a well run open event. 

For nationals I would have paid £65 per day this year (same event which is asking for £120 for 2 days of 200/400 racing). I am willing to pay a bit more for a nationals, but I am expecting a top notch race team and socials each night, plus a bit a food each day etc (Not seen any details about socials or after sailing snacks yet for the nationals and entry closes in two days... so I might be about to be disappointed).