Solution, trouble at mill?
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13869
Printed Date: 09 Aug 25 at 6:42pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Solution, trouble at mill?
Posted By: iGRF
Subject: Solution, trouble at mill?
Date Posted: 08 Nov 21 at 10:26am
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Having revisited my jolly old Solution and recapturing the joy of an easy boat to use and race yesterday I thought I'd have a google about see what's going on, seems they've been having a shift around with builders and it now has the distinct impression of musical chairs, seems they haven't been long with the new one and are on the move again, no idea to whom or where or even why.
I did try and get them to adopt a sail from a builder local to my area in preference to the Hyde offering that Ovington make your eyes water with, but they appear to be reverting to one closer to home can't remember the name as I type this, but I still think it's a mistake monopolising your sail supplier, better to have opened the class to local builders based on measurement. In fact if it were me, I'd open the entire rig so we could maybe see a carbon set up. Imagine the Solution with a D0 rig what a nice boat that would be. Anyway all academic I think my classassociation membership has probably lapsed as I usually renew it each year at the dinghy show and we haven't had one of those in a while have we? But we should keep an eye on whats going on, if they do come up trumps with a half decent builder and we see a resurgence, it's a great little boat very under rated, imagine if Hartleys got their hands on it, carbonised and supersofa'd it, wouldn't that be cool? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Replies:
Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 08 Nov 21 at 12:10pm
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It just Ovingtons didn’t sell enough to make if worth while keeping the moulds in the factory . One new boat in the last couple of years is just not worth the effort.. No idea why the marriage of Kevin and Peak dinghys has failed almost before it’s started but I am sure Kevin will find a builder, it’s his baby after all. I know grf and others love the solution ( and i am not one to criticise anyone’s choice of boat , hell I sailed a British moth for a while  ) . But I test sailed it and it’s not for me. For me the problem is not the rig ,it’s the hull . It’s a lot shorter than a phantom and a little wider and I don’t think it quite works as it should, as it makes it a very on and off sailing experience.We had two come into my club 18 months ago , both bought by good sailors who won loads of races in their previous boats ( a Supernova and a British moth ) . Both of them just didn’t do as well as they had before and both solutions have been sold in the last couple of months. One guy has gone back to the Supernova and the other guy is going to sail a club laser while he draws up a list boats to choose from. Tbh its quite a long diverse list ( Supernova, Solo, Dzero or K1 ) so I think he might be sailing the laser for a while  I really hope the Solution can solve its builder and sail problems as the variety of different boats for people to choose from is one of sailing strengths..
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 08 Nov 21 at 12:46pm
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I can understand folk not doing as well in the Solution, it's quite quirky and tbh the only reason it really works for me is against Lasers (and for a while four other Solutions). It's strengths are the centreboard, righting moment for a short ass lightweight, the option of raking the rig on the fly, which a) depowers it and b) almost affords sailing by the Lee thanks to slack shrouds, it tacks on a dime and comes out of the tack really quickly so it's a windshift followers dream which works on confined puddles like our lake. Completely dfifferent ball game on the sea, try as you may, pump, rock and ooch your balls off it won't live with Lasers offwind and the centreboard case tolerances are so tight even the smallest gravel shingle will jam that centreboard forever, well at least long enough so you miss the start. It's another example of too short, another 20 cm hull length and what a different story it would be. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Hagar1351
Date Posted: 08 Nov 21 at 12:53pm
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Going to be a difficult one for the Solution Class. I am sure Kevin is trying to hold on to the one-design concept. Peak Dinghy wanted to get sails via North but the panel layout was not the same! Peak Dinghy were going to get hulls made by Woodwind, who are like most builders extremely busy. Ovington's dropped the Solution really to allow for the 60 plus OK dinghies they are building per year along with a shed load of ILCA. They did not just drop the Solution but also got shut of the Ovington Solo that Rooster picked up. Following the pandemic though a number of builders have stopped trading (BY at Beer, SP Boats). This has meant that a whole load of classes are looking for builders (RS 200, 300, etc) Streaker, Graduate, Scorpion and GP14. Ginger Boats took some on. But not all have found builders as yet. BY at Beer Streaker Moulds have been bought by Hartley Boats. There are also quite number of FRP builders who don't really build the boats they sell. Car Composite and Bathroom suit manufacturers come to mind. ------------- Hagar |
Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 08 Nov 21 at 2:40pm
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Cheers Hagar . Lots of interesting info in you post. That’s answered a lot of questions but thrown up others. 1) So we know where the BY at beer streaker moulds went . What has happened to the others. Ie solo, graduate etc ? 2) The Streaker moulds going to Hartleys seems an odd match . With most of the boats that they build, they own the design rights( supernova ,blaze , gull wanderer etc) . But with Streakers the class owns the design rights , does anyone know what their view of Hartleys is ?
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 08 Nov 21 at 2:58pm
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Thanks Hagar, interesting, but 60 plus OK dinghies? Really? I mean I'm sure in its day etc etc, but the OK, am I missing something, are the lipstick versions bandits? Are they going over seas? Can't all be for #elephantdinghygraveyardghostriders.com.
------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 08 Nov 21 at 3:33pm
I just bought a used OK this past weekend. Using my "if iGRF hates them then they will be a cracking boat" measure I should probably end up falling in love with it! My reason to buy was that I was interested to sail in the 2023 Worlds which is in the UK and yes it has a decent domestic, European and Global following. ------------- H2 #115 (sold) H2 145 OK 2082 |
Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 08 Nov 21 at 3:35pm
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iGRF Some boats never die because they just have classic strength of design. Things like OKs, Solos,Finns and even Lasers( wash my mouth out with soap ) Will still be sailing long after we have stopped disagreeing over the strengths and weaknesses of Solutions, Aeros and Dzeros etc . Hell they probably will be sailing after we are both long dead. Lol. I cannot say I totally understand it, but it’s the way of the sailing world . The only modern boat that has a chance of joining this group is possibly the Aero . But if I had to lay money on it I think in 30 years you will find them , unloved in the back corner of sailing clubs dinghy parks, like 21st century versions of minisails or laser 2s And the Solo/OKand Finn classes will still be going strong B@@tards |
Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 08 Nov 21 at 3:48pm
SNAP That’s why I bought a D-zero
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 08 Nov 21 at 5:16pm
Hate? Such a terminal description. I even bought a Solo once, sold it because I don't like spiders I seem to recall. So far the Solution has only delivered a below deck Otter or Mink which doesn't seem to have slowed it down.
As to the OK I don't recall ever even seeing one up close and personal, although the dinghy equivalent of those bumper cars or was it bumper boats, you used to get at the seaside amusements, springs to mind. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 08 Nov 21 at 5:24pm
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Wow 60 OKs. That’s nearly the total amount of Solutions made to date since they started production in the mid 2000s
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 08 Nov 21 at 5:27pm
My point exactly, why? I don't get it, are so many dinghy sailors not entirely up to speed mentally (with apologies for the earlier expression I forgot it's not allowed these days other than to describe the opposite to advancing ignition) What is it about the OK, I don't want to have to go through a similar "Solo experience" and wake up screaming to find out. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 08 Nov 21 at 5:34pm
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Perhaps it's because OKs are an International class. Possibly a larger % of people who are prepared to spend what is really quite big money are more concerned about being able to get involved in large class events over chasing the latest small scale development.
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 08 Nov 21 at 7:34pm
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Griff, it's a Mink, vicious nasty creatures, don't try to pet it, giveaway is white patch, look like they have been drinking milk. OK, lovely boat, surely you can just try one ? Why keep buying ? Borrow a boat for a couple of days. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 09 Nov 21 at 12:41pm
Oh goodie, SWMBO will be pleased she'll be wearing it if ever I can catch it. Tricky getting below decks to fish it out though. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 09 Nov 21 at 4:03pm
| take the hatches out and then go and run a buoyancy test.... it'll escape quickly enough |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 09 Nov 21 at 4:20pm
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It's been that thing that has always been missing from Dinghy world so far..
A really useful crew. lol ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Gordon 1430
Date Posted: 09 Nov 21 at 4:25pm
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I think you share so many traits. Short Nasty bite generally undesirable. should never have been let into the country side. ------------- Gordon Phantom 1430 |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 09 Nov 21 at 4:28pm
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Wow ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 09 Nov 21 at 6:55pm
Cruel but so true
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 09 Nov 21 at 7:22pm
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Fortunately for British wildlife Otters are killing off Mink. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 09 Nov 21 at 7:23pm
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https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/mink-numbers-drop-as-the-otter-bites-back-93043.html
------------- Robert |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 09 Nov 21 at 8:35pm
But adored by women so, yep I'll take that. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 09 Nov 21 at 9:44pm
But Kentish women don’t count
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 09 Nov 21 at 10:21pm
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It's the pickled eggs and cheese and onion crisps, gets them every time. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: E.J.
Date Posted: 10 Nov 21 at 8:59am
Hartleys have the Contender, which they can’t adjust the design of, as it’s an International class. They have been good at tweaking the lines within the rules to make it their own. They also have the byte which is even more tightly controlled, so they will do it if they think the market is there. From experience they will discuss this extensively with the class to see what’s acceptable. |
Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 10 Nov 21 at 11:26am
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E.J. I understand what your saying , but it’s still not quite the same situation. 1) With the byte , Hartleys are the only uk builder. 2) Neither of the classes you mention are owned by the uk class association. The streaker class have been very keen to control the amount of builders and make sure that they play on a level playing field to give them a good chance of making a profit.I’ve dealt with Hartleys for a long time and I am not sure how with works with Hartleys business model, which is pile it high and sell at a discount. Time will tell , either the streaker class will welcome them with open arms or Hartleys have a completely useless set of moulds .
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 10 Nov 21 at 1:00pm
I thought Butlers were the darling of the Streaker class, they're the other builder that ditched a class I sail, proving the point that my presence is the death knell to any class I choose to sail. 
Maybe I should work my magic and take up life with the Laserati. Any other class in need of eradication? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 11 Nov 21 at 2:00pm
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Any other class in need of eradication? I suspect a few more yet would benefit from your very own special 'midas touch'. Thank goodness you did not succeed with the Blaze ... and after two attempts to my knowledge at least !! In fact since you left us a year ago we have held our largest Nationals ever - with 73 entering at Paignton '21 back in June..... Many a phrase said in jest etc .....
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 11 Nov 21 at 4:19pm
Well there has been another very recent, serious attempt at self destruction, featuring a very nice boat from Whistable owned by a Dutch guy, lucky for you, another ex windsurfer stepped in, but you're not out of danger yet there's a guy at our club hell bent on getting me back into one so he's got someone to race against. But suddenly I feel strangely drawn to the OK, stuff keeps popping up on my fb page, it's very quirky and you now how I'm drawn to quirky. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 11 Nov 21 at 5:13pm
when you see the big old centerboard, it will be feeling queasy not quirky .... ------------- Feeling sorry for vegans since it became the latest fad to claim you are one |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 11 Nov 21 at 7:37pm
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So what is the problem you experienced with Blaze centreboards GRF ? ... Not heard this one anywhere else in the past except from you. They are fairly moderate for the boat in fact .. even at your weight surely ? There are quite a few lighter than you and under a full F4 the lightweights do pretty well .. more than that and yes .. you may well struggle but that is exactly what the smaller 'Fire' sail was developed for.. I suspect trying to 'bully' too much sail area for the conditons is the real issue here !. You as an individual will be as fast or faster than trying to persist with the standard sail in those conditions. ... and just to be clear as we all 'get on' a bit the smaller/flatter 'Fire' (even those of us at 'normal' weight ) becomes that more attractive anyway. Next time, if you must inflict yourself on the class yet again, do try a Fire sail. Many clubs use a PN of 1065 for the 'Fire' version which means we race with the Aero 7's 'boat for boat' - what is not to enjoy ! You are always welcome back (with the usual reservations of course etc) especially if you join in at the Nationals etc .. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 11 Nov 21 at 8:47pm
The problem you don't take into account, because you just class race against exactly the same boat, whereas I tend to use whatever I sail, against a mixture of lots of other boats. If I could be asked, I'd search way back to when I first pointed out the failings of the Blaze CB in that it's too small in area for the waterline length and power of a 10+ metre sail, if I were to exmine it further and look at the NACA section which probably is set to a much faster planing hull than the craft actually delivers, I bet I could probably crucify it even further, but hey who cares, it's a One design and you're all happy to sail the same crap. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 11 Nov 21 at 10:26pm
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.... and there I was thinking you were struggling with the size ..and assumed you were hankering after a smaller foil !! Even some of the regular heavies would prefer a slightly smaller one when it blows in actual fact. However any foil has to work across the wind range and in a blow the Blaze is quite quick. A 'compromise' is what most boats foils really are .. and have to be. The foil section used is as I'm sure you know relatively 'easy' to engage across with the wind range. I'd go for a more laminer flow type myself if starting from scratch but that might be a bit tricky in the ligher stuff .. for some tastes .... but I'd not bothered as much then myself. |
Posted By: Oatsandbeans
Date Posted: 12 Nov 21 at 7:24am
| So can you get laminar flow on a dinghy centreboard? I thought that was a bit of an urban myth-a bit like lee-bowing the tide,and boats floating higher if they were made from foam sandwich. I once worked on a “laminar flow “ keel for a race boat that was a disaster-obviously was never laminar and really slow-maybe things have moved on from 1990. |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 12 Nov 21 at 7:42am
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Problem with laminar flow foils is that they operate very efficiently in a very narrow bucket of angles or attack, whereas a 4 digit NACA section is more over a wider range. That is forgetting that actually making a laminar 63 or 64 section accurately is not likely. In the meantime there are literally 100s of thousands of dinghies providing plenty of enjoyment with foils that are no more than a sheet of ply which the edges chamfered off. On the scale of things the choice of foil section is high on the list of diminishing returns ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: Oatsandbeans
Date Posted: 12 Nov 21 at 11:14am
| The one that we were working on was for an IACC yacht. The CFD guy said that the dimensions were critical so all the tools were graphite as it has such a low CTE . So everyone ended up covered in black at the end of the day. As as I said it was dog slow-from then on the CFD department was renamed the Complete F*****ing Disaster! |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 12 Nov 21 at 12:37pm
Don't talk to me about foils, I'm in a world of over stock hurt here, as the kite/wing/windsurf world delves into foiling, race foils, surf foils, freestyle foils, even dock start foils, every few weeks a new release making the last release old news and redundant stock. As for dinghys I'm not sure which is the worse I've seen, the tiller on a streaker, or that slab of metal under a Finn, but the Blaze comes into particular grief from me because it's hopeless at my forte, stuffing it in lightwind, and he's carried that into that prototype Hybrid/fireblade I've been messing with which is the complete opposite, works great in light, hopeless trying to kick it off in wind on the wire, one day I'll find something that works well enough across the board. Well actually and back on Topic, the plate that comes with the Solution isn't bad, that can be stuffed yet also works sailed by somebody with enough weight to kick it off a bit in a breeze, so they are out there. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 12 Nov 21 at 6:08pm
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I think the problem GRF is outlining is the way/style he sails a dinghy. The Blaze is in fact very easy to get going in the lighter stuff BUT sheeting it correctly is critical. Any hint of over-sheeting by the helm and they surely will struggle - the answer is simply in the sheeting angle that is largely set by the strop across the back of the boat. Get that wrong, and while you can blame the foils or not if you like, you will be missing the point. If you never race with other Blazes, (hopefully good ones !) you will never learn what really works and what does not. If you can sort that in decent class racing you will also find handicap racing so much more satisfying. There are critical things to learn in any class to get the best out of them - not just the Blaze. How many class opens have you or did you ever enter ? ... I think there is an rather large elephant in this particular room.
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Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 12 Nov 21 at 7:03pm
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Err it’s less large elephant and more overinflated small troll
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 12 Nov 21 at 7:18pm
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So patronising all this BS, sheeting angles, over sheeting, they said the same about the Solution, but it aint always so, sheeting angle is always horses for courses, if your light, if the wind is light, you can block to block and point it into the eye of the wind if you want, just don't bung on to much of that f**king kicker thing. BUT, if the foil aint helping then you're f**ked. No point having a finely tuned sail, without having a matching finely tuned foil under you, they work together and if you haven't clocked that then you should. The Blaze has a crap lightweather foil, FACT, just get over it and race other Blazes, or sail in conditions that suit that particular foil section = windy.
------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 12 Nov 21 at 9:13pm
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Sorry if you feel patronised. But simply shooting the messenger down every time you dislike the response will not help you improve either. Bottom line is you want to win / do better, but that more often comes with an open mind and a preparedness to challenge your own assumptions at least occasionally. |
Posted By: Sailerf
Date Posted: 12 Nov 21 at 9:37pm
| Interesting that no one has mentioned construction. Most people never look at there board that was not built very well to start with being full of expanding foam in most cases. The likely hood of the bend and twist of a new board and one that's a few years old that has had some one jump on it a few times will be quite different. Some years ago some one stuck an endoscope down a box and you could see the tip flexing much more than the main foil as well as the gup of air being dragged down the trailing edge in each wave resulting in a nice vortex of drag and lose of bite. |
Posted By: Sheetpuller
Date Posted: 15 Nov 21 at 6:59pm
You'll probably get protested for moveable ballast with that thing in there. Did you even buy him a buoyancy aid? No - thought not. Tight git... ------------- I'm not arguing. I'm explaining why I'm right. Merlin Rocket 3545 - 'Smooth Operator' Sprint 15 1342 - 'Still Crazy' |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 15 Nov 21 at 7:18pm
No need really, the Solution never capsizes, Ever. In fact if you capsize a Solution you really need to consider your future as a dinghy sailing Otter. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 15 Nov 21 at 10:30pm
I have a fiver or two in the kitty if you have a foil going begging to get an old windsurfer foiling on an old Starbord carve :)? ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Mark Aged 42
Date Posted: 16 Nov 21 at 12:22pm
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Grumpf, since you enjoy fettling so much, how about taking on a sliding seat Minisail? It's a cheap project, and think of the fun at crowded marks!
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 16 Nov 21 at 12:57pm
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He has one, already rebuilt. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 16 Nov 21 at 1:59pm
What like dualling with a couple of hotshot junior girls can't remember what they were in, but recall hardening up round the mark then chucking myself out to where the sliding seat should be but wasn't and hearing gales of laughter even whilst totally submerged.. ER its for sale, anyone? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 16 Nov 21 at 3:02pm
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Told you to fix it in position and add extensions. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 16 Nov 21 at 10:09pm
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Still remember from the 80s the cartoon moment when sitting in mid air after the seat has washed out from under. Feels like ages, when to the onlooker it's instant! ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 16 Nov 21 at 10:15pm
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Something like a hiking strap breaking ------------- Robert |