A fast occasional doublehander boat. Is there one?
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Category: General
Forum Name: Choosing a boat
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Topic: A fast occasional doublehander boat. Is there one?
Posted By: Oceans247
Subject: A fast occasional doublehander boat. Is there one?
Date Posted: 06 Jun 20 at 9:17pm
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Greetings, I do not want a beginners boat as I have sailed plenty before. I want a fast boat that I can sail on my own but with the occasional 95kg (14.9 stone) crew member. Do you have any suggestions? I have been looking as the Laser Vago and the RS Quest. I will mostly sail on a large reservoir but sometimes take her down to the solent. Cheers, Oceans247
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Replies:
Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 06 Jun 20 at 10:48pm
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Vago is probably the best of a bad bunch. The problem is the compromise in what you want is just too big . You end up with a boat that does neither thing very well . Hopefully a more experienced sailor than me can give you a better answer . |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 07 Jun 20 at 10:10am
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Have a look at the 'Hartley 15' best rotomoulded boat I have sailed. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 07 Jun 20 at 7:11pm
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I was 80kg and had an RS Vision was great single handed up to a force four, with the asymmetric it was interesting enough single handed. With a crew on the wire was good for a roto moulded boat. Tried single handed trapezing but the cockpit ergonomics where just not right, Vago would be better for that. Obviously it depends on your ability but I know a guy that sailed a 470 single handed. ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 07 Jun 20 at 8:37pm
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I’d only say that with some of those bigger rotamoulds they can be incredibly heavy if you have anything other than a relatively flat concrete launching area so keep that in mind. Together I reckon you’d make a great Osprey pairing! What about a cat if you sail coastal or one of the big lakes ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 07 Jun 20 at 9:03pm
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Yeah would agree about the weight of roto, my vision was back breaking on land. Out on interest I recovered solo a Wanderer, supposed to be heavier and it was a breeze compared to the Vision. Horses for courses in eight years the only maintenance was replacing the jib furl line and it lived on the North York Moors the entire time. ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: Gordon 1430
Date Posted: 08 Jun 20 at 8:12am
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Might be worth finding out a bit more about these. https://www.beneteau.com/en/first/first-14 ------------- Gordon Phantom 1430 |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 08 Jun 20 at 8:56am
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I did this 12 years ago and bought a Spice. The aim was to sail it mostly two up and occasionally solo which worked reasonably well but singlehanded sailing was only possible in really light weather and with a 12 stone crew we were at the top of the weight range so compromised in both cases. Also fast boats are often tricky to sail which limits your choice of crew. If there is any way to have two boats then that would be a much better solution. A fast singlehander like the Blaze and I expect to change the Spice for something more forgiving (i.e. no wires and a more sensible sized kite 400 or L2k maybe) at some point. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Oceans247
Date Posted: 08 Jun 20 at 6:33pm
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Thank you very much to all of you who responded. I have taken a look at every suggestion you guys made. I have been informed about a Laser Vago that belonged to my local club. It is in quite poor condition though. It is apparently from 2008. The spinnaker is heavily faded from UV, the rudder has several chunks out of it, the boom has quite deep abrasion marks from where it rubbed against the shrouds, the boat cover is moldy and stiff and does not seal closed, the launch trolley is kind of crappy, but the hull seems sound… I am now wondering how I should
value such a boat. |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 08 Jun 20 at 7:20pm
I always find as many for sale prices as I can Apollo duck, Facebook groups and plot a graph of age vs price. Clearly easier to do for a laser. Obviously look you can drop for issues with a boat. On a vago check the deck where the helm stands and all round the rudder fittings  ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 08 Jun 20 at 7:39pm
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The Vago is pretty much my least favorite boat. Heavy rotomoulded but an unstable hull form and a heavy mast. Falls over if left alone, and per minute if sailing probably the most rescued boat at our club.
Take a look at some of the older designs. We had a couple of albacore sailing singlehanded a few years ago, which worked well in lighter winds, and room for your crew. In stronger winds, I can't see any boat working in singlehanded mode with space for a large crew. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 08 Jun 20 at 8:10pm
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It is interesting other than the Mirror and Miracle I can’t think of any boats with the two mast step options for double and single handed. The Enterprise has the option of the cruising main and new boats like Vago and Vision reef. Nothing wrong in buying any dinghy and cutting down the main for single handed days, roller furling jib are also useful when you single handed and it turns fruity. ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: Oceans247
Date Posted: 08 Jun 20 at 8:13pm
| Thanks guys! So much to research... |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 08 Jun 20 at 10:18pm
Formula 16 cats about as close as I can think, looks great single handed but I suspect quite a light double crew ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 09 Jun 20 at 8:37am
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I taught my kids to sail in an Enterprise* with a Firefly rig, and they first soloed with a Firefly main and the CB raked back. It worked very well and the Ent is a lovely, well mannered boat in most conditions. OTOH, with a full rig it's a handful for a solo 75kg sailor but not too exciting with 160kg on board if it's not blowing a bit, a compromise. I'd think something with a kite for two up sailing and a reduced rig for single handing is the most successful option (the Spice with a L2k mainsail was a reasonable compromise)
------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Oceans247
Date Posted: 09 Jun 20 at 8:40am
| I love the look of it, but not so much the price :-( |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 09 Jun 20 at 10:07am
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Enterprise, plenty about and cheap, sailed mine solo loads of times, even up to thinking I had made a mistake.
Probably half the weight of most 2 handed rotomoulded boats, like I said just so cheap you won't be worried about bashing it. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: skslr
Date Posted: 11 Jun 20 at 11:03am
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Not sure if it helps at all, but this classic singlehander should be able to carry a relatively heavy additional person person better than other singlehanders:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O-Jolle |
Posted By: rb_stretch
Date Posted: 11 Jun 20 at 12:40pm
I used to singlehand my Albacore and they can certainly take the weight of heavier crew as well. A very versatile boat, but a purposely designed singlehander is always going to be better at singlehanding.
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Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 12 Jun 20 at 3:57pm
Yep, that's about it for fast occasional boats that are helm + 1 optional. Or the Weta. http://www.formula16.net" rel="nofollow - http://www.formula16.net https://www.wetamarine.com" rel="nofollow - https://www.wetamarine.com Edit: a Spitfire Cat might be a good shout if Solent. Weston has a few. https://spitfiresailing.org.uk" rel="nofollow - https://spitfiresailing.org.uk
------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 12 Jun 20 at 5:24pm
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If going for a cat, the Spark/Dart 15/Sprint could work or even the Dart 18 if the 15 won't take a big crew. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: pondlife1736
Date Posted: 17 Jun 20 at 8:03pm
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There are a number of catamaran options which could fit the bill, eg Dart 16, cheap, bulletproof and a good weight carrier, but easy to single-hand & trapeze if you want. But first you'd need to decide if cat sailing is for you. I love them, but some people seem to think they are a lesser form of sailing.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 18 Jun 20 at 12:18am
| I think in my experience its only catamaran sailors who have this thing about it being a lesser form of sailing. On line dinghy sailors are usually far too busy putting down rotomoulds to criticize multihulls... |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 22 Jun 20 at 12:49pm
With good reason, if that is actually the case. Given the history. (5min 20sec) [TUBE]l61Jc3nzbc8[/TUBE] ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: Dartdelta41
Date Posted: 02 Jul 20 at 8:36am
| Hi, OP, I’m in exactly the same boat (ahem). I have a Dart 18 in Anglesey but every club I go to within an hour of where I am based wont take it. Therefore I’m weighing up the Vago /Buzz question. I also will be taking a light weight crew with me every now and again. I also like a trapeze boat, for whatever reason. The Vago and Buzz seem to take a literal and verbal hammering. I used to sail a 470 which I loved but as a helm and didn’t solo. A friend who sailed pretty much all types to a high standard recommended a Laser / V 3000. Any thoughts? Would love to spend more but can’t justify it, so £1500 budget. Cheers |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 02 Jul 20 at 11:05am
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I have a Spice which has too much sail to be comfortable solo in much more than F2 so pretty limited to when I can sail it on my own (which is partly why I have the Blaze), the Buzz will be better in that respect but is a pretty sturdy beast off the water. The L3k is lighter, has a more manageable rig and is probably a better boat for sailing singlehanded but is a bit small for two big-ish guys (so is the Buzz but it's wider higher volume hull is probably a better weight carrier). ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 02 Jul 20 at 11:14am
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Loved crewing the Buzz in the mid/late 90s.
Hard work compared to the other boats I was sailing at the time,, and the boat a bit tea tray like, but the extra weight didn't seem to affect the fun we had. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 02 Jul 20 at 11:31am
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I love the Spice, it's a twin trapeze boat a 'normal' sailor can sail (it shares the Buzz hull but with a slightly different deck moulding and roughly 50% more rag). Its great fun but without a regular partnership pretty much impossible to sail to it's handicap.
The Vago doesn't seem to get much love but it's a poly boat and IME they are never as nice to sail as a similar GRP boat. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Dartdelta41
Date Posted: 03 Jul 20 at 4:45pm
| Interestingly I approached a 110 acre lake S.C. the other day and asked about membership. First chap I spoke to was very “we’re a serious racing club, no point joining if you’re not going to race, has to be a fleet boat etc...”. I mentioned I was an RYA Dinghy Instructor / Powerboat Instructor and used to be a moderately good racer, and had a cat. End of that conversation. Someone else was much more amiable and said it was a PY issue. I went back to him a couple of days ago and mentioned I’d found a Dart 15 (no PY issue and shorter than many boats there and would be willing to let club members use it, to try. The response was the club doesn’t like “cats”. So I get issues of size and to a point PY, but a 110 lake seems adequately large. I also understand that fleet racing is important. However I don’t have £3000 or so to splash (ahem) on a fleet boat that doesn’t really meet my needs. There a heck of a lot of different boats at the club, even a cruiser. Is there a general feeling that cats aren’t liked on inland waters (understand the owning water companies have certain rules etc), or do I sound like a whingeing did? As a club I’d hope to encourage people onto the water, especially those keen to help and bringing younger people into sailing. The club even has a cruising section! Maybe I should have just had a shower that morning. So if anyone knows of a club in the midlands area that takes small catamarans (14-16 feet), I’d be very grateful for any help. Cheers. |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 03 Jul 20 at 5:03pm
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Draycote has Dart 15 ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 03 Jul 20 at 6:35pm
| Think they might let certain other cats in too these days . It’s many times larger than 100 acres too lol |
Posted By: pondlife1736
Date Posted: 03 Jul 20 at 6:41pm
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You'd be very welcome at Draycote with a Dart 15. Time for a plug! I sail there with one, as well as a Unicorn cat and a Phantom dinghy. We have 20+ catamarans mostly Dart 15's as they suit our 650 acres and round the cans club racing well. We race in the general handicap fleet and do OK if the breeze is up. However we nominally allow any cats up to 18 feet, single trapeze and PY greater than 800, although that is flexible as Shadow/Shadow X is also allowed. Bigger and faster cats, Tornado, Hurricane, Formula 18 etc are deliberately excluded as it is felt they are too much for our water. At the moment, coming out of lockdown, we are casual sailing / informal racing only. However we continue to accept new members. Drop me a PM if you want to come and have a look.
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 03 Jul 20 at 8:37pm
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Often it's not cat speed, its the inability to turn corners. I can see why a small lake wouldn't want cats, but I'd expect people to be nice about it. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |