start line calls
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1337
Printed Date: 07 Aug 25 at 7:09pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: start line calls
Posted By: Prince Buster
Subject: start line calls
Date Posted: 02 Jan 06 at 1:54pm
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Can a boat like a RIB at the pin end of the line relay information to
the commitee boat saying which boats are over the line that the
commitee boat can't see? Prince Buster ------------- international moth - "what what?" |
Replies:
Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 02 Jan 06 at 2:03pm
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yes, I have been on a RIB many times when they have been at the end of the startline and have written down the numbers of boats who were over and gave them to the comitee boat and they were disqualified ------------- Needs to sail more... |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 02 Jan 06 at 2:53pm
| Yes they can and frequently do. Got you, did they? |
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 02 Jan 06 at 3:07pm
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I think all opens (and even some club races if there is a boat free) at Grafham use this.
------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: Prince Buster
Date Posted: 02 Jan 06 at 4:23pm
yep they did!  i just wondered whether it was right.------------- international moth - "what what?" |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 02 Jan 06 at 5:39pm
| Its not unknown for the RO to identify the few boats that *aren't* over the line and OCS the rest... |
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 02 Jan 06 at 8:20pm
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Yep. Also seen that happen. Those caught were going to protest saying that the RO should have re-started, but the simple reply was "I could tell who was NOT over the line, and that is all I needed" ------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: Phat Bouy
Date Posted: 02 Jan 06 at 10:01pm
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If there is a boat on the Pin End who informs the RO what boats are/aren't over the line then they MUST be anchored otherwise you can protest them if you are called. If you think about it, how can you judge what's moving over a fixed line if the person judging is themselves moving? Caveat - shrewd RO will merely say that they were asking the people in the boat to "confirm THE RO's observations".  ------------- Je suis Marxiste - tendance Groucho |
Posted By: Prince Buster
Date Posted: 02 Jan 06 at 10:06pm
AAAh interesting. that's wot happened in my case.
------------- international moth - "what what?" |
Posted By: Phat Bouy
Date Posted: 02 Jan 06 at 10:23pm
Live and learn or burn!!  ------------- Je suis Marxiste - tendance Groucho |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 03 Jan 06 at 11:24am
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Care to quote a rule number or ISAF case that actually says that? I don't think you can but I'm prepared to be corrected.
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Posted By: Matt Jackson
Date Posted: 03 Jan 06 at 1:01pm
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I'd say that it doesn't need to be written down. If a pin end RIB is needed to spot boats over the line for the Comittee boat then it's a fair bet the RIB crew can't see the Comittee boat end of the line. In which case they would need to have got a transit before the line got busy and not moved. The only way to do that is to be anchored. Any half decent protest committe would ask how the RIB crew could tell where the line was if not anchored. ------------- Laser 203001, Harrier (H+) 36 |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 03 Jan 06 at 1:50pm
| Sometimes you need to be dead on the line to know whether a boat is over. Other times it is totally obvious that they are miles over. |
Posted By: Garry
Date Posted: 03 Jan 06 at 5:49pm
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You can always call the first boat over after that it depends on the visibility and how much over and where the other boats are. It also depends on whether the rib is calling over or just relaying sail numbers to the c'ttee boat. ------------- Garry Lark 2252, Contender 298 www.cuckoos.eclipse.co.uk |
Posted By: hurricane
Date Posted: 04 Jan 06 at 7:52pm
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Is this where the having an all white boat starts to become a good idea? I know at this years hurricane nationals a certain coloured boat was ocs, afterwards the race officer later said he only saw a bit of a coloured bow but knew who it was because of this. The view about visability of ocs boats is often over looked at the tornado worlds the final results came down to a protest with the spanish saying it was impossible to say they were ocs from the video. they won the protest with the worlds being taken from team gbr and handed over. ------------- lifes to short to sail slow boats! RIP Olympic Tornado 1976-2007 |
Posted By: Calum_Reid
Date Posted: 04 Jan 06 at 8:33pm
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A certain club on the forth dont even anchor there commite boat for the start they have to marks which the start is between and then they motor the commitee boat onto the line at the last second. It seems to work well. They dont use a yacht for a comitte boat tho, its a purpose build boat! ------------- 
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Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 04 Jan 06 at 8:33pm
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Yes. Conversely, it is where the committee want sail numbers on stickers on the bow, which you see in some events. |
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 04 Jan 06 at 9:02pm
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Eeeek. I assume they have not been protested yet ! ------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: Calum_Reid
Date Posted: 04 Jan 06 at 9:08pm
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I dont know i dont sail there but was there for a 1 day event they generally run yacht racing not dinghies but they put on a special event -------------
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Posted By: jpbuzz591
Date Posted: 04 Jan 06 at 10:10pm
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Calum how do forum members become part of the forum underworld? ------------- Jp Indoe Contender 518 Buzz591 Chew Valley Sailing club Bristol |
Posted By: Phat Bouy
Date Posted: 04 Jan 06 at 10:18pm
Quite correct there are no Rule numbers or ISAF cases that actually say that but this what an International Judge has to say, and I quote: "There is no ruling on the matter. The problem is when it comes to a protest the boat will make the argument that because it was not anchored it could not be certain that it was looking down the actual line and therefore it's evidence is not reliable. Some protest committees can be bullied and if there is doubt the doubt is resolved in favour of the competitor. If the boats are over for a long time prior to the start it is probably not possible for the helm to hold position. However, it all depends on who is more convincing to the protest committee." ------------- Je suis Marxiste - tendance Groucho |
Posted By: Strawberry
Date Posted: 04 Jan 06 at 10:37pm
I would tell you, but then I'd have to kill you..... We will let you know when your ready, it's a need to know basis. ------------- Cherub 2649 "Dangerous Strawberry |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 05 Jan 06 at 6:57am
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Precisely. The spotter boat does not have to be anchored but it is more likely to convince a protest committee if it is. Your original post suggested that they had to be anchored (no ifs or buts), whereas the IJ is saying it is better if they are, which nobody would dispute. |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 05 Jan 06 at 7:03am
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I can think of at least two very well known south coast clubs who have been known to start races this way in conditions when they found it hard to anchor but RRS 27.2 makes it illegal. |
Posted By: Matt Jackson
Date Posted: 05 Jan 06 at 8:06am
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Well if it was a case of a slightly 'iffy' start or a cancelled race I'd go for the iffy start every time. However if I was reported OCS by a non-stationary spotter I'd take my protest/appeal as far as possible (unless it was a clear cut case) because it's only by testing the (non)rules that changes are made. ------------- Laser 203001, Harrier (H+) 36 |
Posted By: Phat Bouy
Date Posted: 05 Jan 06 at 11:31am
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I would still protest the Committee robustly if I was called by a non-anchored spotter boat wether or not and Rule or ISAF case supports it because of the RYA Racing Charter http://www.rya.org.uk/Racing/charter - http://www.rya.org.uk/Racing/charter . Read the bit about the application of the charter where it say "to be provided with racing that, as far as is possible, is fair, enjoyable and safe". What this all goes to show is that it really doesn't matter too much about the rules as there are ways of arguing yourself "out of jail". It really depends on how subtle a bully you can be and wether or not you can can argue sucessfully which supports the theory that "rules" are there for guidance and can be broken! ------------- Je suis Marxiste - tendance Groucho |
Posted By: Garry
Date Posted: 05 Jan 06 at 1:37pm
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Could I just point out that you cannot under any circumstances protest the race committee, pedantic I know, instead you request redress. ------------- Garry Lark 2252, Contender 298 www.cuckoos.eclipse.co.uk |
Posted By: Matt Jackson
Date Posted: 05 Jan 06 at 2:43pm
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I think everybody knows what we mean. What's the difference anyway? My understanding is that procedurally it's the same it's just that the race committee cannot be penalised. Queue excess pedantry (I've made a list of those I think will argue this point and I'll let you all know how well did in a few hours ------------- Laser 203001, Harrier (H+) 36 |