please stop, it hurts!

4k's will never go that fast, they are too heavy, long and wide. so there

If you want a fast boat then buy a fast boat!

I'm not the one saying I'm going to make a 4tonner as fast an Int.14 !!!

There is more chance of your 4tonner growing some big flapping wings and flying to the moon than there is of a 4tonner being faster than an Int.14. Cherub sailors have enough grey matter to realise that's not possible.

(p.s. all views I express are mine and only mine, and do not represent the views of the Cherub class as a whole)

Old Codgers view here.  The 4000 is a pretty nice boat, not so much of a handfull that you can't go out in a blow and yet able to show an 800 around a course in the light stuff.

Boat design is all compromise, the hull is tough but heavy, take 30kilos off and it would be much faster but fragile or make it from carbon and expensive.  But a carbon rig would make the boat a lot nicer at not too big a price hike. 

I know another even cheaper mod - extend the racks, it wouldn't make it much faster but it'd certainly look the part and be more comfortable for heavyweights such as myself.  Certainly the corrector wieghts should be discarded (they make it hardwork for lightweights to pull the boat back to the dinghy park) - just give them more rack instead!

Like many SMODs the boat could do with more development.  Just a little lighter hull, carbon rig, bigger kite and it would retain its niche in the market but have a sub 900 PY.  But all the time it remains as popular as it is we'd better not tamper - but the class association needs to be ready to act when it goes into decline. 

It should never go twin trapeze that would put it into another niche which is already populated by some excellent boats.  At the moment it doesn't have a competitor the Vago and Buzz are too slow to "apparent wind" and I suspect the RS500 will also be in that bracket.  Other single trap boats are conventional hull and spinnaker.  Long live the 4000.

Originally posted by BBSCFaithfull Oh arent cherubs those pathetically small boats wit miniscule rigs? If u want a fast boat get something else!! If they were any slower they would get overtaken by wayfarers

hav u ever sailed a cherub???.........if u think a 4000 is fast then dream on is all i can say....

i sail a 4TONNER!! and am still bored in a f6 .......would sail a cherub more If i could get my helm into one......

I agree with others here. You need to try a 14

Originally posted by BBSCFaithfull Oh arent cherubs those pathetically small boats wit miniscule rigs? If u want a fast boat get something else!! If they were any slower they would get overtaken by wayfarers

I'm suprised no-one has mentioned it yet but the Cherub has 15.5sqm upwind sail area compared to the 4Ks roughly 14sqm, and the cherub can carry a 21sqm kite compared to the 4Ks 17 sqm kite. The Cherub's lighter too and can't remember but think she still has a slower PY number, so is a bit of a bandit on the handicap too. Not saying the 4K is a bad boat, in fact I think the opposite, she's a brilliant boat but modifying her greatly would spoil the class. If you want a development boat, fast 14s are going for 6 grandish, which will probably be much cheaper than modifying a 4000 to try to get close to a 14

You could even buy a 5000, still faster on PY than the 14 (doubt it in practice though), big sail area, twin strings and other boats to race against...........get money back off selling a 4000 and buying a 5000 too.

Friggin Hell, the 2005 rules Cherub's are lightning, at the final fling in Plymouth, the 1999 Cherub 'norwegian blue' was killing laser 4k's and that hasn't even got the big rig on! Trust me, if you sail a cherub, even a small rig one, they absolutely feel lightning quick and i imagine the 2005 rules would scare the s*** out of you with all that rig on 12 feet and a 50kg hull (yes...really..50kg), look at the pictures of them leaving the water completely.

The PY is extremely gnerous and takes into account the diffrent rig sizes and the PY is not lowered because the class is small so the RYA does not get many returns from clubs asking for it to be lowered dramatically.

If you want to mod a boat...get a boat which is meant to be modded!

My facts are entirely based on my own opinion and do not represent anyone else from the cherub class's opinions.

Still good to be creative though. Development within the 4000 class may be beneficial for the boat in the future but the best route would be gradual modifications instead of changing the boat completely. Classes like the 49er and B14 have benefited from essential and gradual development, for example the 49er masts went through an evolution process due to the old masts being quite brital, the rudder stocks and gantrys have been developed, the sails shifted manufacturers from North to Neil Pryde and even subtle things like the implementation of turnbuckle shroud tensioners. Another example is the Laser 3000/ V3000, the development of the class has pumped more life back into the class. I'm still undecided if the weight loss of the boat is a good thing or bad thing because it may cause problems for the older boats within the class being overweight.

SMOD are sometimes more expensive than development classes!

ex...I was emailed a price for a new suit of sails for a Cherub from RedEye(please don't quote me on this price as it may have changed since I received it!)....£1400....

A price for SMALLER sails (one of which is cheap dacron instead of mylar/kevlar!) for the Laser4000 is £1725.

And the blocks on the 4000 wear out a lot quicker than I've seen on ANY development class(and I've been round a lot!) may I also add.....

Development classes are "meant" to be more expensive because of the new hulls being brought out or the new faster suit of sails.....I think it's a load of rubbish!

I've replaced more blocks on my SMOD Laser4000 and OD Kestrel in the last 4 years than any of my friends in development classes have.......

Development classes should be more expensive if you keep up with development.  For instance you may need a new hull every 3 or 4 years.  Whereas a 9 year old hull is competitive in a 4000. 

However in truth the manufacturers are trying to make as much as they can and so we find that the sails (for instance) are very expensive.  Added to this the manufacturers are keen to get the boats out into the market and sometimes they aren't as well developed as they could be, which means you end up with inadequate blocks and poorly routed controls which need frequent replcement.

Look at the Laser.  Very expensive sails and using the old blocks the cunningham and kicker needed frequent replacement.  Now you can use the XD kits to improve - but at what cost.  I also suspect there will be even more Lasers with a hole in the bottom due to the mast drilling its way through becuase its easier to apply even more downward pressure.

I've sailed a Cherub - 20 years ago - even then it was fast in a breeze and slow in the light stuff.

I'n not convinced about that.I would say redback is closer to the truth here I have raced against 5 year old 4k's in a new one and they are just as quick!

A boat built 6yrs ago won the 2005 Cherub nationals.

Taking the Laser class as an example, a very new sail will be faster than an older sail. But they only stay faster for a very short period of time. Therefore, in a one design fleet, if you want to gain a speed advantage from your equipment it will need replacing much more often. Therefore more expense!

It depends on the boat though, Laser sails don't last long but if you consider other SMODs, with fully battened sails, the sails generally last quite long. Some development classes are experimenting with Carbon woven sails just now, which will see the front of the fleet upgrade if they are successful.

Laser sails was just an example, how long does a new hull/foils/mast etc. stay faster for? And when you do buy new ones the price is bumped about by the manufacturers big time as you have to buy their products.

"A boat built 6yrs ago won the 2005 Cherub nationals."

OK, so if old boats are just as fast as new boats that's great.

But it then makes it very hard to argue that development classes can progress and therefore don't become obsolete, as SMODS are said to.

Surely, either you are developing (so you are going faster and old boats get obsolete) or you aren't (in which case old boats stay competitive but you don't progress).

It cannot be logical to say "yes, we are getting significantly faster but that doesn't mean that old boats are left behind".

Uhum......may I just list 4 results from a fleet I sail in?

3rd out of 24 boats @ the Nationals in 2002.....6th out of 21 @ the 2003 nats.....8th/21 at the nats in 2004.....and this year 5th/20 boats at the nats.....

These results were in a boat that this year was 37 years old......Kestrel 668!!!!

the results weren't as good in 2003/2004 as the sails were shot and the helm and crew were both overweight in very light winds.  In 2005 the boat had a new suit of sails and helm and crew were within the Kestrel optimum crew range...

So....a 30+ year old boat can be very fast...I do believe there is a 25 year old Solo that is still very fast...and the only thing that had received over the years are new sails, stiffer mast section and being dry stored!

Of course....a Development class can be different....but not impossible!!!