Handicap Sailing
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12895
Printed Date: 18 Aug 25 at 8:48pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Handicap Sailing
Posted By: Oinks
Subject: Handicap Sailing
Date Posted: 29 Oct 17 at 10:35pm
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So...big discussion tonight between members of the sailing committee and a few people who go sailing... Should we.. a) adopt the Great Lakes Yardsticks b) stick with Portsmouth Yardsticks c) locally adjust Portsmouth Yardsticks Background...large inland lake...200ish acres....history of pretty acrimonious exchanges about handicaps in the past...age demographic...70% over 45. As Principal RO (who has to decide those things at our club) what would you do?
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Replies:
Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 29 Oct 17 at 11:12pm
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The great lakes system is not perfect, but at least it seems to be reactive to changes, and has allowed a variety of classes to reach the front, both in the Great lakes events, and in my experience, club racing. There are still quite clearly outliers though, often with boats that do not have an even performance profile. Your alternative is just to introduce a local correction, so that the best sailors in your club have to sail well to win. Or perhaps, a vote to change to adopted classes. ------------- Andy Mck |
Posted By: Oinks
Date Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 12:22am
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I think the issue really is, if you change something that has been in place since whenever PN was introduced (1960s?) the status quo is quite radically upset. Something that people have "trusted" (more or less) for a good part of their sailing lives is out the window for what is perceived to be unwarranted fiddling by people who might have some sort of agenda (locally adjust PNs) or this other "Johnny-come-lately" scheme (Great Lakes) that basically takes the PN system which is then (again) adjusted by men in smoked filled rooms. I'm not saying that is the case. But that will be the perception. There will be winners and losers. How would you deal with the losers? |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 6:57am
Deal with the losers traditional brexit way "you lost get over it"  ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 7:13am
| It depends on what you want handicaps to do? ‘Equalise’ performance for the best sailors (GL’s focus) or all sailors (PY). That’s the difference in how the statistical methods are applied IIRC. |
Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 7:33am
| I think that using PY at least avoids a clubs handicap commitee being chased round the dinghy park before racing by people who feel short changed. Thankless task, but thanks to those brave enough to have a go! |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 8:13am
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Locally adjust, but never downwards, if you want a quiet life.
Trouble is, if you have "one of each" racing, you cannot separate boat from sailor very easily. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 8:23am
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The great lakes system works - to a point - in a big fleet where slow boats have to sail in the dirty air of 80+ faster boats but its very vulnerable to crew skill factor, particularly when you look at the adjustments made to some classes vs people who sail them. There one or two glaring anomalies. To cut to the chase: If you try to use the great lakes system on a small pond you will mess up your racing completely. If you use the PYs it will be better but not perfect. If you tweak the PYs you will be criticised by whoever loses loses out! If its a small pond i would stick to PY. If its open water it probably wont make much difference but fast boats are generally hammered under the Great Lakes system, and there are not as many boats in the way slowing down the med/slow handicap fleets. Its just a case of which crime you want to be shot for really :)
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Posted By: Late starter
Date Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 8:58am
| Stick with the PY scheme. It has the most data. We had a dreadful experience at my club when we tried local adjustments, caused no end of rows and we lost members so not something I'd want to repeat. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 10:01am
| Only PY issue at my club is from Topaz virtually unbeatable. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 10:12am
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Stick to PY! If you switched to the Great Lakes system and I were a member I'd leave and find another club, the GL system may work for them, but it's political, designed to attract numbers, pro jocks and heavily influenced by some classes & the 'Industry' imv. The thing about PY, everybody hates it universally so there is nowhere for moaners to go other than howl at the PYAG moon.
Moving boat handicaps is bound to cause issues so don't adjust locally if you want a quiet life ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Gordon 1430
Date Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 10:51am
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Ignore Grf the PY system is safest Most of us accept it has a few glitches but it has improved greatly with the more recent adjustments. I sail a Phantom so have more reason t grip than most but I know we were having it to easy before. ------------- Gordon Phantom 1430 |
Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 10:54am
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I would stick to PY too. Interestingly at our club they do from time to time make adjustments to certain classes but they use a formula that is totally open for all to inspect and discuss. Whilst it ticks some people off it is hard to argue with the level of transparency - the changes are made only to the classes that consistently do very well or very badly. So when I sailed a RS400 for which a small lake resulted in poor performance against PY they changed the PY to make it more competitive. The issue with this approach of course is when you have a small number of boats in any one class because the individuals may be total rock stars or numpties - so its the sailor not the boat!! One way the club has dealt with this is to run a few minor series on a personal handicap basis to make it harder for last years best sailors to win - gives mid fleet people a chance every so often to do better and encourage them and also gives the best sailors a challenge that they seem to enjoy. The point is that PY is the best starting point. If you do need to vary it then be transparent on how and why you are doing it.
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Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 10:56am
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Firstly I'd take a few sample races or even series and re-score them with GL numbers. You may find it makes surprisingly little difference? Quite likely you can also influence series outcomes by changing the number of discards etc. I think it may be better to think about grouping boats in PY classes? Quibbling about the relative PY of similar boats is one thing, the issues of racing against boats who are a leg ahead or behind you are another. Then maybe consider if the courses being set are influencing outcomes? Although more and more people question the validity of PY numbers, fiddlling with them at club level is unlikely to go well. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 11:44am
Put a good sailor in a boat mostly sailed by beginners and you have a bandit.... ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 11:54am
Do you lot ever actually read posts? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 12:07pm
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There's nothing to stop you using another set of numbers alongside the PY numbers, 2 sets of results. I'd use the PY numbers for dishing out the trophies though. See how it works out, do it for a couple of years and then gauge membership opinion with a formal vote. |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 12:39pm
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If you have a clear case for adjusting a PY and data to back it up then adjust. If you have low confidence then probably best to leave as is. At my local club people always whinge about the D-Zero winning everything (it doesn't) and how a big step forward has been taken (it hasn't). My usual response is 'Well what about Solo that has had a lot of rig development and optimised hull? The Laser with the Mk 2 sail (definitely quicker especially in marginal conditions) the Supernova that has shed some 15-20kg of hull weight...usually shuts people up because those boats rarely win anything.... (aside from the Solo but the guy in that is front end of the fleet nationally). The only clear cut instance where we did adjust was with the Phantom back when it was on 1047 and the new epoxy hulls came out with carbon masts and laminate sails. We had guys who were nowhere in their respective fleets suddenly cleaning up and being unbeatable (and that change was driven bu the Phantom fleet itself within the club). So yes look at adjusting but only if the PY is clearly wrong. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 12:39pm
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I have raced N12's, Merlin's, Salcombe Yawls, Lasers, I14's and Solos over the years in handicap and pursuit races under PY at all sorts of venues and never felt agrieved by the PY system, I have always ended up roughly where I expected to be. My only concern is that the current 4 digit system implies an unrealistic degree of accuracy in the PY numbers given the quality of the data, which i.m.o. is why people complain. ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 12:41pm
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why not dual score under all systems, post all the results to keep 100% transparency to the fleets and at the end of the year have a round table with all competitors to discuss your opinions on what you see in the various results and what would benefit you most. You could also re-score last the last few seasons so you could implement for next. I would then adopt the system that reduces the differential between 1st and last positions as this is the most "competitive" outcome. ------------- https://skiff-media.teemill.com/" rel="nofollow - T-SHIRTS https://www.photo4me.com/profile/23908/" rel="nofollow - PRINTS |
Posted By: Gordon 1430
Date Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 1:11pm
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Yes Grf I do read most of what's posted on here, and do you honestly think the 50 or so people who us this forum represent the majority of dinghy sailors?
Even amongst those of us who do use the forum I still think the majority believe we have a good system as stated before. ------------- Gordon Phantom 1430 |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 1:20pm
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Clubs are encouraged to 'adjust' PNs by the RYA are they not ... ? But many don't bother or perhaps suspect they would be on the receiving end of 'lobbying' from various malcontents who may often have a vested interest in the status quo. However that does not make it an unreasonable proposal by the RYA. The GL approach is however almost exactly applying the RYA's proposals - they adjust the RYA PN numbers to reflect experience. 1000+ individual competitors each year at the SJ series seem to accept it well enough, it provides great racing and the GL numbers use is increasing at other locations and events. This must mean more racing organisers do see something in the RYA's (and GL) proposal / approach. The GL number system, as an adjusted package of numbers, may even today constitute a 'fig-leaf valued by some clubs given the 'proactive feedback' that would come from some of their members if they dared evolve their own local set of numbers. GL ones are an 'off the shelf' already adjusted package ... Nobody is forced to compete at the SJ series etc etc - 'you' don't have to take part if you don't want but I suspect not all vocal critics will have often done so in the past anyway. Hey ho .. Each to their own. This subject always makes it a good day to sit back in the deckchair with beverage and crisps ..... and just watching ! |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 1:52pm
Well I don't disagree with you in the context of advice for this thread, as you might have noticed had you read what I'd said prior to telling everyone to ignore it. That doesn't mean I think it's a good thing as it stands, nor do I think the GL system is any better, but I'm bored saying it, or suggesting anything different to this collection of folk who wouldn't change, even if someone came up with the Golden solution. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 1:57pm
| I know its totally unworkable but I sometimes wonder if a boat should have two handicaps, one for wind below X and one for wind above X. In the past this was impossible but now that clubs use plug in like WindGuru its possible to track the wind speed measured on top of club house over the duration of the days race and then apply the handicap based upon the most prevalent wind conditions. Let the flaming begin. |
Posted By: Eisvogel
Date Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 2:00pm
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More relevant than the wind is probably the course setting. At our pond, you can have any mixture of beats/reaches/runs, and some courses suit some classes better than others. There are just too many variables, so it seems futile to find anything even approximating a perfect solution. ------------- Enterprise 20361 (Eisvogel), Laser 102727 (Halcyon), Laser 121986 |
Posted By: ohFFsake
Date Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 4:21pm
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GL just seems to be PY but based on a smaller selection set and with an arguable degree of commercial interest... I would suggest that if you feel PY is producing consistently unfair results at your club then propose some local adjustments and apply them retrospectively to the last two or three years results to see what the effect would have been. Then take these to the sailing committee to see what everyone else thinks.
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 5:11pm
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You might find that some competitors dont mind a worse handicap if it results in a greater perception of fairness. What does not go down well is if the handicap is adjusted in a way that it can be perceived as a personal handicap system that favours the less competent ... unless it is promoted as such. We turned up with a Yawl at the Chichester Snowflake a few years back, and our handicap was adjusted by a minute on a weekly basis until we stopped winning; we didnt really mind, it made for better and more enjoyable racing for everone. ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 5:19pm
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The sail wave program will soon pick out if you have a bandit issue. It will give you an idea of how people are performing against their handicap within your fleet. In most clubs the national level sailors can usually perform 6 or 7 per cent quicker than their handicap compared to the fleet average if there is a good spread of ability.
You can spot the issues easily when the winning boat is usually 15 per cent quicker, and the average sailors in that class are also outperforming the fleet average. This is what happened at Hunts with the Phantom, and I am sure any light quickly accelerating vessel would do the same there, so I am not surprised about the D zero comment. We seem to be very reluctant to share the chocolates in sailing. In other club individual sports there is often a system to adjust individual performance, and an inclusivity for prizes. If on a sailing committee I would write into the club rules a mechanism for correcting outliers. At least with the Great Lakes system we know that we will see changes, even if they are not always to my liking. ------------- Andy Mck |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 8:45pm
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GL just seems to be PY but based on a smaller selection set and with an arguable degree of commercial interest... Quite a charge to make .... Evidence of 'commercial interest' at least then please ? |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 8:51pm
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The whole thing is a plot by the pushchair maker to have their boat win handicap races, didn't you know? ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: NickM99
Date Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 9:19pm
| Others have said it all. Stick with PY. I think bringing in local PY is only justified if A) you have a lot of data and B) the local conditions are clearly going to favour a type of boat (e.g. a 3 knot tide will hamper smaller/slower boats; an I14 is not going to win on a small pond.) But is most cases people will sail boats suitable for the water their SC is on. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 9:34pm
 Commercially interested poster defends the indefensible shock horror probe! ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 11:15pm
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Commercially interested poster defends the indefensible shock horror probe! Could you possibly explain your 'logic' GRFi ..... I have NO commercial interest
whatsoever (Keep up with things for goodness sake ...) I am just a regular punter just like you and have been for quite some time ..... Sorry about that, got carried away for a minute and nearly
entered that parallel universe of yours
myself . So OK maybe, on seconds thoughts, “a regular
punter IF NOT quite like you”... And what is the 'indefensible'
bit about anyway ? Either handicap numbers are based on a
methodology or they are not ... so do indulge
us a tad further and try explaining exactly what you mean. (And I don't mean by 'explanation' a 'don't like/understand' one) And I only rattled the cage momentarily to see if you were
lurking out there in the gloom given the date and time of year ..... Happy Birthday |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 31 Oct 17 at 7:09am
| I don't know the answer to Oinks original question, but his/her situation is very similar to mine. We have traditionally altered PY numbers to "better" suit our lake and this is a job I have now reluctantly inherited. We have currently rejected the Great Lakes scheme essentially for fear of the new and lack of "officialness", reverting to standard PYs is considered a retrograde step but to avoid personal handicapping tweaking them requires a degree of subjectiveness. |
Posted By: Eisvogel
Date Posted: 31 Oct 17 at 9:05am
Good point. It can be a bit disheartening if the same two or three sailors win all the trophies on Awards Night. And I'm sure they know they're good sailors already anyway. Obviously it should not go the other way, as the anti-PC brigade always whines (that everyone, even the last one, has to get a trophy), but making it harder for last year's winner to get to the top spot again can only be good for progress. Has anybody else tried the PRATT racing (http://go.prattracing.com/)? It sounds like a good approach, and is probably as perfect as any PY score will ever be... My own approach to handicap racing is that I generally know if I did well or not, regardless of position, so I don't really care much. It's nice to see that I get closer to boats that were previously way further ahead of me, so I know I'm progressing. Though I doubt that I will ever get into the chocolates at our club. Fleet racing, of course, is different. That's why I like going to Open Meetings. But that doesn't involve PY/GL. So I guess my point is, we shouldn't get too hung up about PY figures. If a change in handicaps is the reason for you to change your club, then either you're taking it all too seriously, or there is something else wrong with your club that made you leave. ------------- Enterprise 20361 (Eisvogel), Laser 102727 (Halcyon), Laser 121986 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 31 Oct 17 at 10:09am
Other than having a keen enthusiasm for dinghy racing, with all due respect, you are nothing like me, you have a history of being in business in this very market and using the GL series amongst others to promote your wares.
As to the GL system/series, other than the hard fact that it is managed by a completely commercial operation, of course I have no hard facts to present proof of whatever collusion/corruption of the PY system for personal/class gain there may or may not be, but I have been in the periphery of this and other marine businesses for the past 40 years, and have what can I say, a keen instinct for spotting smoke and mirrors. Interesting to note the Hadron is now getting the 'treatment' somebody must be worried about the sales it's been making. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 31 Oct 17 at 11:11am
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http://greatlakes.org.uk/The-Method.php" rel="nofollow - Our aim is to allow the top sailors in any class an equal chance of winning when conditions suit that class.
Is your club trying to allow the top sailors an equal chance of winning when conditions suit? Or are the trying to give representative results for sailors across a series? Data from the Winter Championship handicap events held at Draycote, Grafham, Northampton, Queen Mary, Rutland, Yorkshire Dales over several years, and Datchet and Oxford last season has been collected and analysed - over 5000 race results in total. This has been the primary data source used for making changes. Data was taken from these events, how similar is your club racing to these events? If your club evens don't attract the same fleet density then those 5000 race results may not be so representative. The RYA have long said that the PY should be altered locally. The problem is, locally you don't ever have enough results for it not to become a personal handicapping exercise. Basically, you have to be prepared to stand up and single out a handful or less sailor who you don't think deserve the results they have been getting. Obviously very decisive. Unless you have a quantifiable reason (tide), or it's a development class which has undergone significant recent change then I'd stick with what you have.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 31 Oct 17 at 11:22am
Fudging handicaps so the best racer doesn't win, whilst still awarding the prize as if it were for 'best racer' is bound to cause issues. If you want to open up the prizes then it might be less contentious to do it through other award; personal handicap series, best attending, most improved (biggest reduction in personal handicap?), outstanding performance, first family. Think about the characteristics you want to see at your club, identify them and reward them; but do it openly.
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Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 31 Oct 17 at 11:34am
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of course I have no hard facts to present proof of whatever
collusion/corruption of the PY system for personal/class gain there may
or may not be ..... (etc etc) So there we have it direct from the horses mouth .... so it is all just supposition, speculation or whatever we now might call 'fake news' - Logic being if you repeat ****ocks often enough some naive mugs might just believe you. The world today I suppose ... Next we expect to hear that your own 'preferred' altenatives (and this is a constantly and regularly moving target of course ...) are nothing but shiny, pure, bright and new and just what 'we' all really need. Yeah right of course ...... think most understand now exactly where you are coming from .... We can expect to see you at which one of the SJ series this year ?! No ? Not at all ? Thought not. Better leave you to your winter sailing then .....'Keyboard' class has a very attractive handicap again I hear. |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 31 Oct 17 at 11:54am
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1) PY straight up RYA numbers, no local amendments- any whinging, forward them to the RYA and remind them PY only really works over the series as general indicator of performance. Any change or deviation will cause trouble, and unlikely you'll be thanked for your efforts. 2) Return results to RYA to ensure you're doing your bit to make next year's numbers as reliable and representative of the classes sailed at your club as possible. 3) encourage fleet racing for those who seek a higher level of competitive sailing
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 31 Oct 17 at 4:43pm
You missed the bit... The bit that went 'other than the Cold Hard Fact that it is managed by a full commercial operation,' the entire series that would be doing what? Other than assuring such an event maximised their profits? Tell me perlease you're not completely commercially naive. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 31 Oct 17 at 4:57pm
This sounds like a decent, simple approach that will cause fewest ripples. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 31 Oct 17 at 5:10pm
ftfy ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 31 Oct 17 at 5:15pm
Indeed that's true.... I've re-editted your edit, as for once, I'd tried to make a sensible post. After all there's no hiding behind the data, no great conspiracy and no place to blame anyone but yourself for the results you turn out on a fleet race. The irony is, for those whom handicap racing is designed to meet their needs, none of that need apply either. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 31 Oct 17 at 5:19pm
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Sail Juice publish the PY in the notice of race, just the same as any other PY racing. If you don't like it you don't have to race.
They give a reasonable explanation of why the handicaps are changed from what many are used to and even seem to have a fair bit if data unlike many clubs making changes on gut feel. In the end handicap racing is good for a winter get together or according to many on here club racing when the options are classes they don't like. But anyone believing moving a few arbitrary numbers one way or the other will make the racing materially fairer are expecting too much. |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 31 Oct 17 at 5:24pm
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GRFi .. you are intentionally being obtuse now. You want
a major national series to be produced by who exactly ? Your proposing
things should be run by purely amateurs now ? ... on a zero budget and ‘goodwill’
basis ?
This is getting surreal or is this just what happens on Halloween in
deepest Kent. You are barking up the wrong trees again or are you really just
part of a ‘click-bait’ scam ? Charging for entry etc and running things on a sensible and
commercially sustainable basis does not necessarily
mean corruption does it ? Frankly your conspiracy
theories don’t really cut it and if you can’t prove a single ‘claim’ against anyone
you hint might not be playing fair, and never have managed to in the past, then
most will draw the most simple
conclusion. You are deceiving yourself
and trying to deceive the naive and gullible as well. Now go
on and organise your own series with your own handicap system if you must .... ‘keyboard class’ entries are the only one
likely to make it to the line though. You seem to know about these things - so do tell me exactly what the current rate
is for a proper ‘decent’ handicap ?? .... I
don’t think I’ve budgeted for quite enough in recent seasons .... |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 31 Oct 17 at 5:52pm
Allow me to remind you of the post that initiated this... Now, you crack on and on and on and on and on about how fair and reasonable a series in which your former Banditry revelled and you expect not to be called on it? Can we talk about that big rig thing you cowboyed that event at Oxford with or the small rig thing you cowboyed our local derby with? Don't lecture me on where and when I choose to sail, in my mind that event is bent right out of shape so I choose not to support it as much as I'd like to. One day maybe I will, then again maybe I won't but to me corralling all the decent winter events into one particular style for others to profit by aint my idea of cricket, so I'm not playing thanks. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 31 Oct 17 at 7:29pm
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Yeah yeah - if you say Donald..... I mean GRFi. Whatever you choose to believe none of us individual regular racers set handicaps, influence handicaps, sit on handicap committees, or corruptly 'buy’ handicaps or even get Russian trolls on the case. Now I know this might seem strange but bear with us a mo ..... just think about what you are really implying..... without a shread of whatever. Not one .... Might be time to just finally accept things like they are rather than you like to imagine them. Much of what you occasionally suggest that is constructive simply gets washed away in all of the rest of the repeated ‘conspiracy’ drivel. And Yes .. you are still avoiding
the previous question ... How much does a good handicap number cost ? and who should we approach ? If somebody were to ‘pay’ more this year what
is the current going rate in terms of ‘minutes per hour’ or say PN points
? We must know ! |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 31 Oct 17 at 8:02pm
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Between fifty and sixty grand, will get you a half decent series last time I set one up, though considering inflation maybe that should raise to 80 -100grand to be safe.
For which you get a new handicap methodology based on the boat, once fixed never altered unless the boat itself changes materially. A handicap allocation system per helm, based on height, weight and experience, this number can fluctuate according to results attained, pro's race scratch individual helms goal would be to shorten their handicap. Membership of the new handicap racing organisation committee formed from the trade and competitors selected transparently and open to change from the membership. A prize fund of 10 grand per event, say five events. That's your initial price, the system should produce an annual revenue stream depending on take up and access to the handicap issuing site would of course be monetised. Or you can stick with your existing system nobody would force anyone to join in. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |