Finn race format
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12697
Printed Date: 19 Aug 25 at 4:22am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Finn race format
Posted By: Noah
Subject: Finn race format
Date Posted: 17 Mar 17 at 12:06pm
|
Cribbed from that 'other' sailing forum frequented by colonial cousins (amongst others...) "The Finn class will be trialing a new race format at the Palma regatta starting in 2 weeks. It looks like this The format in Palma will enable all sailors to sail a minimum of five days, while keeping the last day for the Final.
(Thanks to http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/194847/Finn-Class-to-test-new-format" rel="nofollow - http://www.yachtsand...test-new-format for details) I personally find this totally crazy and makes me less and less interested in Olympic sailing. I can think of some situations that would make a mockery of this. 1. Somebody wins every one of the 9 fleet races and then doesn't win a medal. 2. Somebody comes last in each of the 9 fleet races, finishes 5th in the semi-final qualifier, 3rd in the semi final and wins Gold in the final. 3 Modification of above, but instead of last in 9 races, DNF's in 9 races. As it is the Finn, imagine if somebody like Ben Ainslie arrived at a regatta ill, started each of the 9 races and then headed back to bed! To me, ignoring what has gone on in 9 out of maximum of 11 races is
crazy. The fixation with making sailing more media/TV friendly is
pushing more and more ridiculous formats. Surely enough is enough. On
this basis, why not simply have one single race, winner takes all
because as a true test for our sport that's almost as valid as what is
being proposed. Discuss... ------------- Nick D-Zero 316 |
"Replies:
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 17 Mar 17 at 12:31pm
|
Sailing is more akin to Heptathlon, Modern Pentathlon and Decathlon. Having a tournament style event just wont work for sailing. It is and has always been about being strong across a range of days/conditions/races (similar to the athletics events mentioned above). Sure if you win all the races then you will win overall but consistency is what helps. This new format will put me off watching Olympic sailing, but then again I am a sailor and not a member of the wider public. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: furtive
Date Posted: 17 Mar 17 at 1:10pm
Worth pointing out that Point 2 above is incorrect - if someone comes last in each of the 9 fleet races they won't be able to progress by winning the semifinal qualifier, as the five boats going forward at this stage do so based on overall series ranking (see Round 2 bullet point above). There are still some other issues that are valid, but it's not quite as extreme as the post from SA suggests.
|
Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 17 Mar 17 at 2:12pm
|
Been through all this discussion with a similar format proposal for RS:X.
It will change the way people sail in the fleet races; the good guys will take less risks as they only need to be there or thereabouts. The lower fleet guys will really bang corners, a couple of lucky guesses could get them into the knockout rounds - by then it might be 'their conditions'. A lot of effort to make it slightly more understandable for people that aren't really interested in sailing, whilst spoiling it for the people that actually sail. |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 17 Mar 17 at 2:22pm
|
I think it's a good idea and reflects real world sailing more and more.... hardly anyone cares for the series results in a club, it all comes down to individual races- with maybe one or two key club races that carry more gravitas than the rest. It might as well be the same for the top tier of the sport too.
|
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 17 Mar 17 at 2:43pm
| I think there are flaws and it is unnecessarily complicated, but I have no problem with a winner takes all final race. I don't hold with the line of thought that you need a long series to find the best sailors. |
Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 17 Mar 17 at 2:50pm
| Disagree. You often see outliers popping up and winning the occasional race through getting lucky with a big shift. Nobody wins a series through luck. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 17 Mar 17 at 3:08pm
Nobody cares about the series, until mysteriously it all changes at the annual prizegiving? |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 17 Mar 17 at 3:16pm
Why bother with the rest of the regatta? Just pick 8 boats from the rankings? How many times would the eventual winner miss out on this basis? OTOH, I can see some merit in the top few guys racing without the distraction of a big fleet. And in avoiding the situation where the winner doesn't need to sail the last day. TBH what the pro's in the Finns get up to is not something that worries me over much, I wouldn't even worry too much if a regatta I entered was on this format. But I wouldn't want it to become general. |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 17 Mar 17 at 3:19pm
I guess those that actually go to a prize giving might care, but if say 50% of series entrants were bothered about anything other than a single race in isolation, please explain why there are so many DNCs in most club series result sheets? But your other post is spot on, it doesn't really concern me too much what happens at Olympic level Finn sailing.
|
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 17 Mar 17 at 4:00pm
| Yes, obviously it would be naff format for Fed week or your local club. I think there is much to be said for just having one race at the Olympics - keeps it really simple, allows for the odd bit of drama/upset, but generally cream floats to the top. Then the same sailors could do a different event the next day with a different medal up for grabs. |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 18 Mar 17 at 6:45am
|
Apart from the issues people have already pointed out, one factor could be that this is the 59,000th time someone has come up with a bright idea to get Olympic sailing to rate well and the previous 58,999 have done nothing. That seems to indicate that either sailing will never rate well, or there needs to be much more of a rethink than just playing with scoring. I seem to recall checking the IOC's reports and noting that the introduction of skiffs, spinnaker cats and hybrid windsurfers - each of which was going to revolutionise Olympic sailing - didn't move sailing one spot up the ratings rankings. When predictions have been completely wrong so many times, I have zero confidence that any predicted ratings improvement will occur this time. ------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 18 Mar 17 at 9:36am
|
Are other sports expected to follow bizarre and complex procedures and scoring for the Olympics which bear no relation to how people conduct the sport at other times? This seems to the following the monkeys approach to writing the bible - or the racing rules - give enough PR "whizz kids" enough time and you may if you are patient end up with something not too much worse than where you started  ------------- Peter Ex Cont 707 Ex Laser 189635 DY 59 |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 18 Mar 17 at 9:37am
|
Sailing can look exciting, this video on youtube proves this, well I think it looks exciting, obviously strong wind, this is always going to be a problem relying on weather, issue is how can you make an interesting spectacle in a drifter, (short of having a sponge fight). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FbWTFJ3kV0 |
Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 18 Mar 17 at 9:48am
|
Mmm, that's a lot more exciting to do than to look at! What I enjoy looking at as a spectator is close interboat racing, prestart manoeuvres etc. with some good commentary. Modern technology makes doing a good job of that a breeze, but it rarely ever happens. The editors can never stop themselves cutting from a really interesting prestart position to a boring shot of lots of boats at the critical moment. And at least half the commentators are loud mouthed motor mouths who don't understand what they are looking at and rarely are interested in letting those who do finish a sentence. Would that ever have real wide appeal? I don't know, but I'd like to see it tried. I don't think the assumption that boats moving fast with lots of spray and sudden death scoring is the way to appeal to, and hold, a wide audience is correct. But perhaps if you start by trying to appeal to the people who actually follow the sport you just might not only find an audience, but maybe even increase the appeal of the coverage and even the sport. ------------- Peter Ex Cont 707 Ex Laser 189635 DY 59 |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 18 Mar 17 at 9:53am
|
"perhaps if you start by trying to appeal to the people who actually follow the sport you just might not only find an audience, but maybe even increase the appeal of the coverage and even the sport." Well said. One other thing is that the world's biggest spectator events include the Tour de France and Formula One. Both of them are usually decided before the last event. That seems to make it pretty damn apparent that there is little if any correlation between ratings and having a sudden-death final. ------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 19 Mar 17 at 8:48pm
|
In fairness to the sailors (Olympic or otherwise) they don't have much of a say in the race format... they just go out a race. I think it's fair that the organising authorities are trying out stuff (how many times has the medal race been won by the Gold Medalist?), but I don't think this is going to prove to be any better. Sailing is different to other sports, in that we have a regatta series to find our winners, and hopefully a multiple day champs will throw in varied conditions so that our winner is the proven best-all-rounder. If someone wins with a race to spare, then so what? They've obviously dominated and should be rewarded for that, otherwise why would we go and do 8 races in a weekend Open, instead of just a single race then hand out the prizes. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 20 Mar 17 at 12:55pm
|
It's stuff like this which makes me think the Olympics isn't very good for sailing. Which is a shame, because for as long as I can remember it's been the pinnacle of small boat sailing. Sure, Olympic brings funding in to the sport, and the exposure on TV supposedly increases participation. However, it can be a double edge sword; lots of non-sailors I spoke to watched Rio and it just confirmed that sailing is a sport that they don't want to do.
Creating 'one race winner takes all scenario' is more viewer friendly; but only for a one off viewer. But i'd be skeptical it would build longer term engagement when every event you have a different seemingly random winner. I felt the medal race was an okay concession to increase 'spectacle'. This just seems confusing. I'd like the olympics to have a 10 day offshore race. On board camera's, live tracking, keep it coastal so helicopters /drones can get out regularly. Plus it would be host cities (country's) dream to show off a wider coastal area.
|
Posted By: JohnJack
Date Posted: 20 Mar 17 at 10:34pm
I imagine the sailing out on the surf in the Olympics to look more spectacular than this. However we never got to see it, even recorded!!! We ended up watching the course beneath the mountain that seemed about as shifty as Dovestone
|
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 20 Mar 17 at 11:45pm
|
The medal race concept is completely cr@p, it doesn't mean a thing and is actually far more confusing than a straight forward series. Anybody who follows football, motor racing or a plethora of other sports understands the series/league concept (the only hard bit to understand is the discards and even that relates to stuff like ice skating). You get points for wins/places and "what do points mean?"....... Actually it's a bit like a football match where the actual result is decided on penalties, the actual match only function being to give one team a head start..... ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 20 Mar 17 at 11:47pm
See above but Formula One does fine with a simple system of points for places..... ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 21 Mar 17 at 7:19am
|
Maybe it is the discards that are the problem. The Stars used not have discards in their Worlds and they arguably have produced some of the finest sailors. The possibility of a big score in the last race would keep people on their toes, and be just as effective at keeping interest going as would a medal race. At this level gear failure should not be factor if the classes where competitors provide their own kit, and redress should be available if manufacturer supplied kit breaks in genuine circumstances. ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 21 Mar 17 at 9:18am
|
There is always the chance that the last race will be a bit random though. Big windshifts, very light or very windy. Or a rules incident where someone in contention for the title gets fouled. |