Hi everyone. I was sitting around today and a thought came to me. What is, The Best One Design Boat Ever? Now I believe that for pure speed, excitement and closeness and quality of racing the Laser 4000 can not be beaten with it's excellent weight equalisation system it remains the best boat around for ultra compettive racing.

So there's my opinion what about yours?

On your bike, the scorpion is slow and is outdated it is an old persons boat!

The only thing a scorpion would be good for would be my wood burner at home!

This is destined to become a "my boats better than yours thread ..."

But just for the hell of it mines shown in the avatar ...

Rick

Is the Scopion one design.  Don't think so.

Before you can do this (and itr will get silly as Rick says), you have to define what one design means. 

One set of plans and tight tolerances ? - I.e. Laser (in theory) Dart 18 - very tight rules.

Or is one-design a single hull shape with a choice of sail shape, but area controlled ? - Like say the Tornado.

Discuss....

[Runs away fast]

Youve got it the wrong way round... you mean: one design like one set of plans and tight tolerances - like the tornado (or scorp) or one design like one mould owned by one manufacturer, and no tolerance - like the laser or tempest.

Well if you want to be all sensible about it, yes. 

D18 has multiple moulds, but you understand what I mean.  The D18 rules are VERY tight so everyone has the same kit. 

The Tornado rules are tight, but there are still a handfull of builders who could build you a boat (although in reality Marstrom builds them), and then the rig etup is fairly free... 

Blimey, I can'tm believe this...... I never knew the definition of a one design not allowing restriction free rudders (with the special exception of hydrofoils) and not building to the limits of the design. That rules out every boat that isn't one manufacturer made, and some that are.

Yeah..... bloody forever developing OKs, and contenders, and the relentless pace of Enterprise development pisses me off!!!!!!

Haven't we gone over this before? Think I remember something about best boat ever? Sensibly I'd say like others have said its got to be the Laser, or maybe the Topper......how many people on this Forum have learnt how to sail in a Topper and then raced them when younger? For a double-hander I'd say the 505 (if she can still be classed as one-design) just due to the fact that she was a cutting edge design for her time and seems to have stood the test of time, plus the fact that she's cracking to race within a fleet. You can't really class newer designs as the best SMOD ever as it's still to be seen if they will be successful over a prolonged ammount of time, I'd place my bets on the 49er still being a successful  class in 10 years time due to the fact that she has Olympic status but wouldn't like to guess for the other double-handed SMOD "skiff" classes which are already showing signs of decline. Reckon the MPS will also be another class which will be still successful with time too.......

Cat-wise, Tornado if she's classified as a SMOD, Dart 18 or Hobie 16 if not.

 I think the Contender has to be considered.  The hulls last ages, they competeive for a wide range of crew weights, easy to rig, excellent to sail, it's the nicest boat I've ever sailed upwind.  Recent turn outs at open meetings have been in the 40's with 51 at the inlands!  If your after a one design singlehand trapeze boat, with a large range of national & international competeion there's only the contender to choose from.  The design has stood the test of time and is still a really good looking boat.

The laser is a commercial success and has the best range of competition, but it's a real dog to sail upwind in force 4+, and a pain in arse to rig.

Well that's funny because the class rules say:

Could'nt agree more Rupert, well said mate.  Just watch your typing, you spelt Fireball wrong.

I would agree with Iain C, that the Fireball is an excellent one design.  This boat has lasted well and eveolved in a way which improves the class but still keeps the older boats competitive.  Its nice to have a one design with a choice of hull materials, professional or home-made, choice a rig, foils & sailmaker, this all helps to keep costs relatively low.  Look at the quality of a laser sail and how long the things last & how much they cost, there's no value in them whatsoever.

Have to say that the 505 still has my vote, and just checked with the class page, she is a one design. Beautiful boats to sail and race. Over 50 years old now and still popular in at least 25 countries.

The following quote has been taken from the Int 505 site, think it speaks volumes about the boat

"The 505 is really my favorite class because it is so lively and responsive in all types of wind and sea conditions. ...after having sailed all types of dinghy and all types of keelboat I would like to tell you that no other boat is able to give one so much pleasure as this one."

Paul Elvstrom Expert Dinghy and Keelboat Racing

There are different options for the rigs, etc, but the 505 class does still claim to be a one design according to their International Class Association webpage

You are of course all forgetting the boat that most of us in our middle age learnt to sail in. A class that has lost popularity recently but still has a good turnout at nationals and a circuit many classes would dream of. I am talking about the Mirror.

I have no axe to grind as I havent sat in one for about 25 years ( Im to much of a fat dad now) but I still rate them as a great little boat to learn to sail in with the extra benefit that you have to learn to get on with someone else in the boat and it has a spinaker.

Its a shame it has lost popularity as a junior boat but admittedly its not very cool looking now.

"Hey 'scuse my ignorance but is the Firefly a SMOD (like it was at first) or is there more than one current builder for boat and rig?"

Yes, she is still a SMOD, built by Rondar, spars by Proctor/Selden sails by Hydes. The difference between the Firefly and some others is that the class has chosen who the manufacturer will be. It is great to see other classes (V3000 springs to mind) managing the same thing, and spreading their wings.

Apart from my earlier shameless plug for the Firefly, in reality it is impossible to say what the best OD is. If you broke it down into catagories, you might get closer (best singlehander for small rivers with trees/ best doublehander for estuary sailing in a short chop/ whatever else you can think of) or best OD for 39 year old with 2 small children. Even then you could have as many opinions as there are people! Good way of wasting a few minutes while the small kids are watching Camberwick Green for the umpteenth time, though!

Only 39 your still a boy Rupert.

Ps thanks for the sail on Saturday.

Yes the Mirror is getting a new rig as part of its modernisation which started with the FRP boats which are now well on the pace.  The Mirror is still the obvious choice of parents wanting to teach their children to sail in a proper boat,  competitive racing and a great boat to sail attracts many of the country's top sailors with their offspring.

Simon Lovesey
Class Secretary
www.ukmirrorsailing.com

No you guys have completely missed the point!! All these boats you have stated may apparentely be 1 design but the 4000 has 1 hull design 1 sail maker and 1 boat builder. Whereas the laser may claim to be 1 design strict bla bla bla it still has different rig controls and has been modernised with the XD products meaning that it has been changed i.e. destroying its 1 design status. This is true to many other classes which have been mentioned such as the fireball and scorpion which have from memory the Fireball has 2 Hulll designs and difffernt sails i think but the scorpion has 3 hull designs plus at least 2 different sails designs.! Thus stating my point that the best boat has to be the 4000!!

Good effort ... but the answer to this one is still the Laser.

Rick

No, you have been arguing that the 4000 is the strictest OD, not the best boat.

In any case, there are plenty of other 1 hull, 1 sail, 1 everything SMODs around. Try the Hunter 707 or SB3, for something entirely different. They are just as strict as the 4000.

With any SMOD there are usually improvements in its life.

Just look at the new Tasar sails - they transform the boat.

Rick

Technically speaking it has one, or infinite, depends on your point of view.  Peter Milne (designer) was fairly loose in setting the rules particularly for the front end as the boat was designed for home construction and the idea was that an amateur would be able to produce something that would at least measure.  Over the years the boat gradually developed less rocker, and the Delanges produced the first true wide-bow that evolved into today's "one design" Winder. (that said, there were still older boats at the Worlds getting sanded down or built up with filler to measure!)

The Fireball if anything is now far more one design than it started out, with the Winder hull now dominating the open circuit numbers wise.

"eh?"

Rick, just saying that BBSCFaithful's criteria for the best one design are the exact things that would lead to it's disappearence, so probebly not a good way to judge this.

Ah ... I see ,,,

The trouble with one-design rules that are too strict is that they stifle evolution in the class. Take the case of the Wayfarer - in which the class and designer (actually the sons) are trying to maintain class rules so that wooden boats built over 40 years ago remain competitive. They do this by imposing draconian limits on materials and building techniques. So, there is no amateur building possible either for plastic or woodies. Why isn't there a stitch and glue version of this remarkable boat.

A more sensible approach would be to introduce a moment of inertia rule (like the Finns or the Snipes) so that there is no point in building boats with extremely light ends. With this type of rule boats evolve slowly - a reasonable target is that boats should remain competitive at international level for 8-10 years before being recycled as club racers.

As for best one design - let us start by deciding on categories

2 groups :  SMOD and "one set of plans/multi - builder" boats (I would suggest that this type of class will, on average, have a longer life.

categories:  single handed; two handed hiking dinghy, two handed trapeze, two handed keelboat, three handed keel boat

 My criteria : established class, international racing (not restricted to English speakers!), competitors of a high calibre (attracting Olympic class sailors), boats that don't need to be scrapped after a year or two (this explains my doubts about the 470)

My nominations (incomplete)

SMOD single: Laser, OSOPMB single:  Optimist or Finn, hiking 2hand OSOPMB : Snipe (longevity of class and boats, truly international racing, great class association, cheap); 2handOSOPMB trapeze 505 or Fireball or (reluctantly) 470; 2hand keelboat: Star (sail one you'll understand) 3hand keelboat: Dragon

Not sure if I could pick one boat out of all these

Gordon

I agree your more 'sensible option' beats a strict anything but the wayfarer case is a little different. What your taking about is a weight reduction, whcih for a boat this big would be s sinch. The question the class asked, and all classes proposing change should ask, is will this change create more members. The number of people racing classes like this has much to do with the second hand cost and that depends greatly on how competitive second hand stuff is.

Any weight saving to a boat like the wayfarer would not make it a 'light boat', would only make it a little faster, and not enough to change it into a skiff, and still make all the oldr boats uncompetitive. An association would be mad to vote for such a thing.

Further, the class is defined by its proctical use as a heavy, and therfore stable seaworthy cruiser/trainer/sailing introducer..... such use in the class is larger than racers. Its mere logevity is a statment towards its weight.

As for stitch, and glue...... youve not made amny stitchies..... the chines radius is too great - but you can tack them to a frame and then tape it in the normal way....just a squick.

As far as I know no-one in the Wayfarer class is talking about lowering the weight, I agree that this would be a nonsensical idea. The problem as I see it is that there is a considerable interest in wooden boats but the class is stuck with 1950's building methods (including  CP scantlings that are now difficult to obtain). There would also be considerable interest in an amateur built version. I am certain that a modern easy to build wooden version of the boat would be possible. To do this the class rules have to change from philosophy - from "this si the dimension and position of every stick of wood and screw in the boat" to "this is what the builder has to acheive in terms of weight distribution, shape and layout - let him evolve techniques using modern techniques.

What is clear is that there is a determination in the class that the early "woodies" (now veteran boats when they have not been in effect totally rebuilt) should retain their present high re-sale cost. I know of no other class that has this ambition. I am not sure that this is the best way to ensure the long term future of a classic and useful boat.

Gordon

Are you seriously saying that every laser 4000 that leaves the factory is the same weight or that all boats at the nationals are the same weight?

Unfortunately as they are not weighed there is no way of knowing.

Also I remember hearing about sails of different sizes coming out of Hyde’s this was 3 or 4 years ago. (take this with a pinch of salt but it was what I heard)

Therefore I reckon the Scorpion is a lot closer to the ideal one design than the 4000.

OH MY GOD...... hold the press gents..... this guy is a genius. That is the best point I read yet.

True, true.

Unfortunately for BBSCFaithful people who sail are not one-design - they are different sizes, shapes and have different abilities. Identical boats would only sail at identical speed if identical people were sailng them.

Which is why one design (as opposed to identical) classes allow some variation  layout , gear and sails.

The object of one design racing is to provide close racing and a fair test of sailing ability at a reasonable cost... I would suggest that in one design the fleet is often less spread out than in the "identical" SMOD classes.

Gordon

Anyone got any data on that?

I'd suggest that SMOD fleets are more spread as they are sailed by people with a wider range of ability. After all you have to know a little somthing to set up a one-design ... many new starters have no idea how to set the sails or tune the rig.

Rick

[/QUOTE]

Anyone got any data on that?

I'd suggest that SMOD fleets are more spread as they are sailed by
people with a wider range of ability. After all you have to know a little
somthing to set up a one-design ... many new starters have no idea how
to set the sails or tune the rig.

Rick

All I am suggesting is that perhaps newcomers to the sport percieve it's easier to get going in a boat that is "simple"; I guess that is why the plastic boats are so successful.

Rick

Am I being too cynical in thinking that complete beginners who buy a new "plastic" SMOD boat are those who have so little contact with the sport that their first port of call is to a salesroom rather than to a sailing club.

The marine industry has a short term interest in flogging as many new boats as possible - most sailing clubs have more interest in attracting long term members. The best way to do that is often to ensure that the beginner buys a second-hand boat from within the club (giving longer standing members the chance to up-grade).

But then I am just a grumpy old cynic!

Gordon

I suspect that may be the case by looking at the numbers in the RCR.

I expect a holiday sailor who fancys getting a boat probably buys what they used on holiday then looks for a club ...

RIck

Gordon and Guest#260 - I think there is a lot of truth in your observations.

Chris 249 - the Laser 4000 may be the answer it has the infamouse Performance Equalisation System where the lightweights have a wide rack (but weights in the boat) and the heavyweights have less rack (and less lead).  Its a step in the right direction I suppose, but my observation is that getting the right gust on a downwind leg is much more significant than any equalisation.  I would also say that the rig is so tuneable that it copes for a wider weight range than the equalisation system anyway. 

Actually I would question the basis of the equalisation system used for the 4000.  I'm not a particularly heavy bloke at upper 80kgs but I have to have a very narrow rack.  However I have to confess that there are many mixed crews in the 4000 fleet and if equalisation made that possible (even if only psychologically) then that's quite an achievement for a high perfomance boat.

Being an owner of such a boat I have 2 observations:-

1. The Laser 4000 is a fast, and powerfull boat and yet many quite light people sail it.

2. The rig is so easily depowered it does not need a lot of weight over the side to go quite well in a blow.  (this is true upwind anyway, a tight 3 sail reach is another matter).

As you can see I can't decide if its worth it.  What I do know is that the adjustable racks mean that in general tall people have the racks quite short making the boat a lot less comfortable. 

Heavy people are at a big enough disadvantage without having less rack.  This is particularly so in modern high performance boats which have less rocker than older designs.  Less rocker gives higher ultimate speed in a blow but it then becomes much more difficult to get the transom out of the water in light winds.

People are heavier on average than they used to be and - the performance equalisation system needs to be adjusted to accomodate this - then we'll get heavier people into the class.

I would say that a modern rig such as the 4000s is sufficiently adjustable to be its own performance equalisatiion system - adjustable racks are not required.

And getting back tothe One Design question.  If the 4000 does not develope it will die.  Its quite a dilema - technology moves at a pace and the 4000 in particular is aimed at those who want something fast.  It would be relatively easy to design a boat as fast as a 4000 now whereas it was one of the fastest things around.  Consider the 29er and the 59er.  The 29er is a kids trainer as very nearly as fast, the 59er doesn't have a trapeze and has a lower PY number.  In time the 4000 will have to re-establish itself in its niche - or die.  A carbon rig would be a step in the right direction - mast boom and pole would save about 10kg? and in all the right places.

Its not a strict OD - there is a tolerance on the spreader deflection which has quite an influence and you can rake the mast any angle you like.

In my opinion the best one design singlehander has to the Laser.

It is still by far and away the most popular class at my club. It appeals to recreational sailors right the way through to Olympic sailors. It is easy to rig and relatively inexpensive. I know it has lots of faults but for people that want competitive, hassle free racing it is unsurpassed.

In the two handed category the field is less clear but for my money it is probably the 505 - If you can call it a one design. It has stood the test of time remarkably well. Whilst it is starting to be little dated now it still offers a high performance package in a relatively stable boat - (versus the skiffs that it is now competing with for market)        

I mus disagree with you (Swiftsolo) and anyothers who have put forward the Laser as a 'best OD'. Its popularity is due to all the reasons you state, with a double underlining of cheap, and further driven by the fact it is popular...... up to a point in conforms to Mr Lloyds previously mentioned Metcalf's Law...... the idea being the more people own the more desirable it is.
I myself have owned 2 and raced them extensively for 3 years, but I put my wish for ownership down the simple reason that so many other great sailors had one. The racing was competitive, close, thrilling, cheap, and always among like class. Im happy to have raced them, and I learnt much about racing - the foundation from which I can now happily stand (or hike).

This doesn't detract from the main reason for leaving the class -the boat is the most horrible, unbalanced, dog beast, possible. I still have pains in my knees from my Laser days, and I used to be in constant pain of one type or another, trying to get the best out of what is essentially a wide sailboard with fittings.

Everyone I know who doesn't sail one, chooses to cos they perceive it as a nasty boat to sail..... and in that respect it is unique - love it or hate it...... only 2 types.

Simple - yes, cheap - relatively, popular - still, great boat - no way.

Hi Woody,

Welcome!! We need people like you, who believe in their opinions despite (or because of...) the opposition.

Have fun on this forum. It's full of people from everywhere, with different ideas and opinions about everything - don't believe it stops at sailing matters! Some are very vocal, some are very quiet; others still are so silent I wonder if they really exist.
Our oh-so really serious members will talk about wind weight and tactics and rig tensions and luff and crew weight and hull shape and commercial interests.... and all these things I don't understand - very impressive. Others members join in occasionally for a bit of fun, and talk about their sailing experience. And right at the end, there's one person who talk rubbish! You've met her!!  

Agreed; has to be the Laser; not my choice but 180,000 owners can't be wrong ...

I actually agree with the points you make. In addition the sails last about 5 minutes. It basically has weather helm all the time. The top mast breaks if you put on the sort of vang needed to depower the rig. It wants to roll to windward on the run in heavy weather. I have owned 2 of them as well. The idea of flogging my guts out to go upwind in more than 12 knots doesn't appeal to me either.

Having said that I still think that its simplicity, the competitive nature of the class and the fact that 180,000 are out there is reason enough to say that it is the best one design. 

Just don't ask me to sail one!!

The Best One Design has got to be the 300 or Santa would sail some thing else

Hang on a minute ... two of them must be fakes as there is only ONE Father Christmas ...

Santa sails a 300 called "Fat Bottomed Girl"??? He must be a fake

The one on the left must be the other fake as that is clrearly John Inman ...

im gona stick my neck out here and go for the laser.

(already running i left my hands behind to type this)