Future of Sailing Clubs...
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12671
Printed Date: 19 Aug 25 at 2:41am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Future of Sailing Clubs...
Posted By: JimC
Subject: Future of Sailing Clubs...
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 8:04am
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http://www.yachtinghistorians.org.uk/downloads/Concerning%20the%20Fragility%20and%20the%20Future%20of%20Yacht%20Clubs1509.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.yachtinghistorians.org.uk/downloads/Concerning%20the%20Fragility%20and%20the%20Future%20of%20Yacht%20Clubs1509.pdf
Some interesting thoughts in this. Suggest most will want to start at page 36 and the section "Part Three the future" rather than wade through all the Victorian History. |
Replies:
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 10:01am
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Spot on... I particularly like this exert: "Before leaving the issue of time constraints, I would mention other features that compound the effects of these constraints. The first is opportunity costs – every time a person goes yachting, they sacrifice doing other things – seeing films/plays, spending time with family/friends, visiting relatives etc. As the time and time flexibility of the working person is reduced, so some of these demands require priority – such as caring for an ill parent – and cut into time available for yachting. These competing demands on younger people’s time can lead older commentators to see them in a negative light. In the ‘Letter of the Month’ in Classic Sailor, October, 2015, Sue Farrer, Elder Gaffer and Secretary, North Wales area Old Gaffers Association, is worried about the lack of volunteers to help in the running of yacht clubs: Most young people nowadays want everything given to them on a plate, which means always taking something out and not putting anything back in. (19) But this is what philosophers refer to as a ‘category (or level of analysis) mistake’. Farrer is ascribing psychological motivation to individuals, rather than seeing a sociological or political situation applying to that generation and its handling of the limitations on its time, which are much greater than those of the previous generation. |
Posted By: Dougaldog
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 10:06am
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Jim, an interesting perspective but am unsure on some of his data and the way he views it. The last time I looked, the Royal Southampton and Royal Southern were both thriving; the latter is based on the Hamble, the Royal Southampton is in.....Southampton (funny that). It also seems very SW centric and shows little in the way of understanding on how the clubs inland, in the Midlands and North of England, are responding to the challenges. These operate to a very different dynamic to many of the legacy clubs in the Devon & Cornwall peninsular. Nevertheless, despite the rather limited scope of some sections in the work, one would hope that those who have set themselves up to 'run' our sport would sit and read this - but I doubt it! D
------------- Dougal H |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 10:18am
he's a lecturer at Exeter Uni according to the cover page.... that might explain the bias in the presentation you rightly point out.
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 12:07pm
| It's a pretty depressing outlook but, it's mainly concerned with 'yachting' as opposed to 'dinghy sailing' (and in fact, he refers, briefly, to dinghy sailing as a possible solution). Most sports have boom periods (dinghies with the DIY building boom in the 60s, windsurfing when it was a new sport) and often decline when something new comes along. If they have anything going for them they usually settle down to a base level (as dinghy sailing and windsurfing have). One thing is for sure, things will change but I don't see sailing going into terminal decline anytime soon. |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 12:49pm
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 1:05pm
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what the report highlights well are the socio-economic changes.... whilst those who currently run the sport continue to ignore those changes and refuse to start formulating plans to counter it, well then the sport will continue to decline. FWIW - I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing. Consolidation has many perks.... imho, there are too many clubs and too many classes already in the UK and this constant drive to make sailing appeal to all, is frankly, not working. Sure, there maybe less of a market for those with a commercial agenda, and sure, there would be less 'jobs for the boys' at the RYA if sailing gets ditched from the Olympics, but that old adage about silver linings does rather spring to mind right now.
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Posted By: Eisvogel
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 1:17pm
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If dinghy sailing becomes even more of a minority sport it will be very hard to get grants (eg for training boats or facility upgrades), and everything will become more expensive (as economies of scale disappear). Surely that has to be a bad thing for everybody. Making sailing appealing to all is important if we want to be able to continue sailing in the future. Obviously not everybody will end up as a regular sailor, and that is not the point. Just look at the Netherlands or Germany in terms of their cycling infrastructure. Many people there bike, and as a consequence you have an excellent network of cycle paths. But few people cycle competitively. Now compare that to the cycle infrastructure we have (not) in the UK. It's never going to change, as only a brave minority dares to take a bike on a normal road. If we aren't careful, sailing will (very long term) end up in a similar situation, with the infrastructure decaying & clubs closing, leaving fewer and fewer opportunities to go on the water. ------------- Enterprise 20361 (Eisvogel), Laser 102727 (Halcyon), Laser 121986 |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 1:57pm
Poor comparison imho... Cycling is a green method of transport, reducing congestion as well as emissions in urban areas. Sure, it's also a nice way to experience some physical recreation at the weekend too, even for those who don't take the ultimate step of turning it into a competitive pursuit. Try as I might, I can't really envisage the old canal network facilitating my daily commute by D-Zero....
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Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 2:20pm
Why are we entitled to handouts for training boats? Why should we expect other people to subsidise our facilities? |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 2:31pm
what's good enough for Ben, is good enough for all??? https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-approves-75-million-for-sir-ben-ainslie-project-to-boost-portsmouth  |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 3:07pm
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It's not about entitlement, but if UK plc wants to encourage an active lifestyle, for general public health and/or pathways to medals reasons then the gov't is handing out our taxes to NGO's such as RYA, FA, RFU, UK Athletics, Cycling, and others (incl dance for all I know). Given that there is a pot of money there then we as a sailing community should ensure it is spent in support and furtherance of our sport. ------------- Nick D-Zero 316 |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 3:20pm
pragmatic approach - on the basis the Government are going to waste it on something, it might as well be wasted on a sport for the relatively privileged.
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Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 3:27pm
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That's a cynical view James.Whilst it is fair to say that the majority are likely to be middle class (whatever that means) with a reasonable disposable income, I spend less on sailing than someone of whom I know spends on just watching football. Also, there are clubs around - one near here for starters - which make the effort to show 'disadvantaged' kids what dinghy sailing is about. That takes cold, hard cash to provide equipment to appease the 'Elf n Safety brigade with appropriate kit - not loaned or hand-me-downs, in addition to the small army of volunteers who give of their time. No doubt sailing is not unique in this respect, but any incoming grant cash is not only going to support those who arguably don't need it. ------------- Nick D-Zero 316 |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 3:37pm
And this is going to seem even more cynical.... but really, what's the point in that, other than to tick a box on their lottery funding grant application? It's not actually sustainable- we all know that current 'group think' would suggest you ain't part of the club until you step up to boat ownership. So how long is someone with financial restriction going to participate before they find another distraction or something else to compete for their time and money? And you could argue it's not aspirational either. After all showing something to someone with limited means to continue might just breed resentment- thus reinforcing the very stereotype which such endeavour was meant to breakdown?
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Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 4:40pm
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The point, surely, is that a (perhaps tiny) percentage might decide they want more and put some effort in to achieving it, whether by working hard at a job to earn money, or academically to have the freedom of choice later. Entry costs are not necessarily high - I think a large number of non-owners of two-person boats have little or no financial input. And, as I think you have said, an old L@ser can be bought for (almost) pennies. ------------- Nick D-Zero 316 |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 4:48pm
Well that's the trade off isn't it? Yes, you might get one or two who stick with it long enough to bring a warm fuzzy feeling in the stomachs of those who set about with the right intentions.... but for the other 98%, they potentially go out there and perpetuate the myth that dinghy sailing is elitist and expensive.... my own view is that sailing would be better off accepting it's not for everyone and stop trying so damn hard.
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Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 4:52pm
that bit is correct
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Posted By: Eisvogel
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 5:01pm
But how are you going to find the ones who enjoy sailing and will stick with it, without trying to give as many people a go as possible? Sure, many people will try it, and decide it's not for them. But excluding certain groups from the outset because they are not the kind of people who are typically the sailing kind of people (ie white middle class and above) is not the right approach. ------------- Enterprise 20361 (Eisvogel), Laser 102727 (Halcyon), Laser 121986 |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 5:11pm
@Eisvogel  ------------- Nick D-Zero 316 |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 5:29pm
| I'm all for Liberal ideals guys, as long as we accept they're pretty much a waste of time.... we would be better providing allied facilities to the current demographic... a decent private swimming pool would be a good draw for starters, what about a Yoga Studio? Or one of those on-the-water inflatable assault courses? |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 5:36pm
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In the spirit of modern debate, I would just like to say that I disagree on a fundamental level with everything in the report. I've not read it, obviously, but it is clear to me that it is biased towards the perpetuation of a elitist, liberal middle class minority passtime, and as such should not be allowed media coverage. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 5:42pm
You can't make everyone try sailing. You can offer it to lots of people, like for instance my wife's school offers a bit of sailing to primary school kids, but is that effective? It's good for the kids but probably not at all efficient in bringing people into the sport. Sailing is not something you can learn in 10 minutes, 'having a quick go' is likely to disappoint. You have to face the fact that it holds zero fascination for the vast majority of people. As for sailing being a middle class sport, possibly anyone who is capable of being any good at sailing is capable of succeeding at work too? I know quite a few club members and good sailors who are more working class but they tend to be successful at it. The kind of garage mechanics that start their own business, welders who earn good money, office workers who get promoted, shop assistants who become managers etc. I have known a few sailors who have been rubbish at their work lives, but they were more 'upper middle class' people. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 5:48pm
You should pick some random quotes from it.
various philosophies or ways of relating to the sea: the Corinthian – yachting as a means of challenging nature; the use of the yacht to escape, highlighted in the interwar period; and the location of quality family time, practised as families came aboard in the 1960s and 1970s. This means that alternative philosophies such as Corinthian yachting, and yachting as carefree relaxation, are challenges and threats to this world view |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 5:49pm
Precisely- I don't know of one kid from my daughters school who has taken up sailing as a past time in a local club thanks to it being on the current curriculum. I do know of about 50 mums who would give yoga with stand up paddle boarding in the summer a go.... just a shame a local sailing club doesn't offer it on a Tuesday morning.
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Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 6:08pm
You must move in interesting circles. This paddle boarding malarkey mostly looks like a silly, unstable sort of canoeing. Most participants make it look like a slow and awkward game. Just the latest way to encourage people to flange around in a spoil pit in the Midlands. Then they come down to the ocast and look stupid. Maybe they need to work o their yoga? The only time I've seen it look appealing is in surf, where paddlers were able to get to waves that swimmers were too late for, and of course they're already standing on the board when they get there. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 6:15pm
| I tried SUP(ing) briefly, on flat water it was pretty easy and thus quite boring. Bumpy water, who knows, I suspect that would be beyond all but the dedicated. I suggested it was a way for the windsurfing manufacturers to sell us another toy (a 'light wind alternative' has been the windsurfing industries holy grail for more years than I care to remember). There are definitely people who think SUP(ing) is wonderful and get a huge amount of pleasure out of it but, for me, windsurfing, dinghy sailing and kayaking are all infinitely more enjoyable. |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 6:15pm
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That's precisely my take on it too Mr 400... great fun in small mushy waves and shed load easier than prone surfing; but ultimately I sold my boards as it was just another thing that took me 8 hours driving for 3 hours play. I vaguely enjoyed paddling on the river through town.... once. That said, I wouldn't discount the idea that it could also provide a novel way to get some exercise on flat water for thoes with opener minds than I... after all, tell me again what the feck a room full of spin bikes is offering to be so over-subscribed... go for a bike ride FFS!!! STand Up paddle boarding and Yoga gel very well.... hits a female market that wooden solos can't, and provides cross over marketing to other family members. It could of course just be a fad, by why not ride the fad if it brings in an income and an allied membership base?
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 6:24pm
Nope it's piss easy.... you can score twenty waves a session on your first few times out on easy breaks. IT gets progressively more fun, technical and tricky on shorter boards though... but a 10'5 or 11'0 picks up on its own... you don't even need the paddle if you can pump properly
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 6:30pm
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Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 28 Feb 17 at 6:49am
Is that so? Apparently the many 100s who cycle past my door every weekend haven't got the memo. |
Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 28 Feb 17 at 7:04am
We are not "entitled". We have to make a case. And why not. If Community Sports funding is available, someone is going to apply and someone is going to get it. Why not sailing? Since most of this money ultimately comes from the Lottery and Lottery sales are in decline, the party may be over anyway. |
Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 28 Feb 17 at 8:10am
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I think the fact that clubs have to put bids in for training equipment only serves to highlight that for the vast majority of sailing clubs training is not viable as a source of income. It generally doesn't seem to be viable as a source of members either which is even more worrying since clubs use hours and hours of members time on it. All training really does is allow you to tick a box to justify the club's existence and to enable you to apply for money that if you didn't bother with training you probably wouldn't need! (Obviously boats are just one potential use, but you get my meaning). It seems to me that inland racing clubs used to do better for members in the "bad old days" when you used to turn up on a Saturday with your old trainers and a jumper hoping that Bill's crew had let him down again so you could get out in club racing. Why did this work better? Because you were actively involved in what the club did. You got taken to the bar where the race was rerun over a beer and learned how to sail on drip feed. Eventually you'd find out that Bill's actually crap but Doug needs a crew for the next three Sundays so that would sort that out. You might buy the scabby Laser down the beach that noones touched for five years to save you from Bill but he's now got someone else going through the initiation process so to guarantee a sail you'll have to learn to helm................... And that is where the course should kick in. I think that a lot of smaller inland clubs need reminding about why their members joined in the first place. Speech over :)
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 28 Feb 17 at 8:49am
| You don't need a course to learn to helm, those of us who learned in the '60s didn't go on a course we were told the basics and then shoved off in a Oppi or something. My son learned in the '90s by the same method (in an Ent with a Firefly mainsail). The best way IMHO, one of the big attractions of sailing, especially a youngster, is the 'freedom' aspect, not best illustrated by being shouted at by an instructor. |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 28 Feb 17 at 10:02am
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Sailing needs to appeal to the modern generations...........So what are these people like? Why are they different from us baby boomers? They have a different outlook on life. How can the institution of sailing fit in with their needs? Doing more of the "same old same old" and doing it better ain't going to work IMO. |
Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 28 Feb 17 at 10:06am
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I've been involved in a bit of instructing for RYA courses, and I can assure you that shouting at participants is not the approved, or generally applied approach. ------------- Peter Ex Cont 707 Ex Laser 189635 DY 59 |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 28 Feb 17 at 11:03am
Yeah, maybe a poor choice of words on my part (I qualified as a RYA Windsurfing instructor many years ago and also taught driving for 30 years before I retired in 2015). What I really mean is that while rigidly structured training schemes might be the most efficient means of producing competent sailors it's hard to convey the sheer joy of simply messing around in boats within those constraints.
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Posted By: Eisvogel
Date Posted: 28 Feb 17 at 11:10am
Yes, the courses are too short (they have to be, otherwise people wouldn't be able to join them given pressures on their time). So we need to provide opportunities outside/parallel to the courses. In the course they learn how to competently handle a boat, and in social sailing sessions (non-competitive) they can practice messing around. But you need volunteers for safety cover etc, so this is something the clubs need to organise, and it can't just be offloaded to the instructors. ------------- Enterprise 20361 (Eisvogel), Laser 102727 (Halcyon), Laser 121986 |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 28 Feb 17 at 11:27am
I think we need to await the digital detox economy to come to fruition before engaging with the younger generation becomes a realistic proposition. Nokia just re-issued the 3310- we're told this is to fill a gap in the market for those looking to simplify their digital needs. Obviously it's just a marketing stunt using nostalgia to showcase their android smartphones in a crowded market with well established key players.... but who knows, maybe it'll back fire and WhatsApp, Facebook and those f**king pouting lips and sh*t eyeliner selfies on Instagram will be a thing of the past in the very near future.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 28 Feb 17 at 11:39am
Hmm, where to start. So, they were not left to play alone in bomb sites, travel 5 miles to school on their push bikes aged 6, be taught to use knives and axes and tie knots in Cubs and Scouts, have to compete in running and other races where there were actual winners and lots of losers, not constantly told they were special and 'talented', not given false hope that celebrity stardom is just around the corner and they're singing and dancing was not akin to the caterwhauling of a demented dervish, not parented & pacified by electronic games, tv and tablets, not pampered, preened and above all, not entitled. That's a few of the differences, not much for the professional marketeer to overcome. 
Basically activity sports that work in cold wet reality are f**ked if they are to rely on the millenials. Better to market harder to the new generation of active retirees that may not have had the chance to sail in their busy lifetimes. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 28 Feb 17 at 12:23pm
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The two clubs I joined last year are positiviely cluttered with under 16 sailors. That may be a by product of being in towns which are actually some sort of community, and being on the coast. But yes, it is actually a strength of sailing that you can still be competitive at 55 and beyond, it is accessible to people who are way past a lot of sports, yet it is still useful for fitness, Those people have the cash, the time and the need. My old club, we had a whole family join as rank beginners a few years ago. Dad and son picked up trophies in separate series last year. |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 28 Feb 17 at 12:23pm
Yep, pisses me off too. There are some good un's out there though. So, what do we have: Available on the club member market.
a significant and increasing number of narcissistic, low empathy individuals who can't think much beyond next year because they might not have a job (or a life if we get many more Putins or Trumps)......and who are not likely to volunteer V's Current club format membership requirement needs. Unselfish, good empathy, team players who have enough emotional security to have a long term plan and who will volunteer. Clearly sailing clubs running on the current volunteer basis are going to be stuffed once you and I have shuffled off. It won't be a sudden transition either, I believe the problem is already occurring at some clubs. Edit for emphasis. One of the biggest threats to traditional clubs is the decreasing number of suitable volunteers. |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 28 Feb 17 at 12:41pm
actually time to 'fess up.... I'm not in the same boat as you here. I'm one of the guys who didn't race in 2016 because the 8 races I could have actually turned up for weren't worth the 2 days of duties I would have had to have completed. So I bailed on it.... nothing to do with the cost of the boat. I spent more on Snowboarding in the summer than the cost of a 'disposable' Laser ... and my club even offers reasonable enough club boats for hire for the price of a cinema ticket. The rest of the time I windsurfed, but 2016 was spectacularly poor wind wise for me. The combined effect... I won't bother renewing in April and will find sailing in other forms going forward. The report rang very true for me about time sensitivity. I'd like to think that I might be more time rich in the future, where I would give back a little more to a sailing club - maybe duties, maybe on a committee or something- assuming they still run to the same format. I just can't see that for about 15 years or so with two kids under 10 and a wife who don't share this particular interest. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 28 Feb 17 at 1:06pm
Sorry to hear that. But, that would be much the same for other sports in your position. And sailing will take you back in 15 years or whenever. Not all clubs have duties. Not all racing needs club membership. But 8 races a year is quite sparse. OTOH, you have the snowboarding and the windsurfing, which from sailing's point of view is part of the problem. |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 28 Feb 17 at 1:21pm
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Part of the problem? Maybe one way to look at it.... I've always approached the windsurfing as the same thing as dinghy sailing for me. One suits the coast and windier conditions better than the other.... same game though, hence both are off the list for UK-based participation for the next year or two. With no viable alternatives that I found equal enjoyment from, then sure, I guess a Laser and the duties would make sense- even if it's only twice a month on average. I know I'd rather freeze my nuts off on a committee boat writing down PY times, even accurately, than ever kick a football again. Try as I might, cycling just doesn't have much personal appeal- despite it being so damn easy to participate in and balance with family life- I can see why it poaches sailors and golfers as it has done. An evening's snowboarding session provides a place to do something for a few hours that doesn't rely on the weather, nor daylight. I can even see the kids before I go as the sessions don't start until 8pm. Have I enjoyed it as much as good races, or good windsurf sessions? Probably not. But the overall return on time makes for easier living and the progression is linear as opposed to the creviced plateau I find myself on with liquid watersports. You need time to get consistency and improvement- a clear run of 6 weeks sailing once or twice a week and I know I'm better for it. It also serves as a spring board for family holidays.... we're taking the kids out for a second half term next week. The overall cost of which is probably equitable to any of the new single handers on display on Saturday... even those on Rodney's stand. But you can't really compare the costs.... one is a just a selfish toy, the other a complete family experience for all to remember in a beautiful, dare I say, magical location.
I'd love to know which clubs around here don't have duties.... that'd be a start. I've asked around before, the only one that offered a buy-out doesn't race midweek. As you say, my interest in this thread is very much the future.... as for the 'now' and how to ensure that there even is a future for it.... that's someone else's problem. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 28 Feb 17 at 2:15pm
I've not entirely figured out the detail of how those two clubs don't need to have duties. Partly I suspect it that one of them is actually as much a yacht club as a dinghy club, so has a big pool of people it can fidn volunteers from. Both clubs have a number of kids sailing whose parents muck in. Both clubs are 'town sailing clubs', so probalby retain loyal members who used to have boats etc. Both clubs have affordable (going on towards 'bargain') membership and charge significantly to store and race a dinghy. From appearances both clubs are in good health. I have since joined another club which is more on the typical club model with duties, bar volunteers, work parties and all that. |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 28 Feb 17 at 2:41pm
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I guess the one thing that surprises me is that when I look through the results, well over half the participants are doing well under half the races per series. I don't think we have a qualification minimum level anymore, even signing on once is enough to 'qualify', but it does seem to me that there are definitely some folk who are happy with the number of races they get per duty - even if it's minimal. I know some people even enjoy running the racing, doing rescue cover etc, I guess it gets them out the house and is better than murdering fish to avoid the wife and brat..... I envy them I guess.... it must make life simpler to just accept it.  Your point about the kids participating is very true.... nothing so formal as duty roster, but I've lost count of the saturday mornings I've spent shovelling poo at the yard, organising big group get-togethers and PTA stuff like tombola and the annual spit roast...
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 28 Feb 17 at 3:32pm
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At our club we have pretty high levels of participation in Junior Training on Tuesday evenings and Saturday mornings, with perhaps 100 junior members. The club has been grant aided in getting a range of suitable junior boats. Some of the Juniors notably children of active adult members form part of our racing fleets and are good at a national level ... then they go to University, On the whole, we don't get 100 Juniors transfering into the Club's racing programme. But they are the base of the pyramid, hopefully they won't forget their skills and will re-engage with the sport as they approach middle age ... even if this is a Flotilla holiday in Greece. So I regard what the club does with its Sport England support as a bit of a success, In the old days there was a clear division between a Sailing Club and a Training Centre, which were often at opposite ends of the lake. As we all get more demanding of facilities that must resemble those of a Sports Centre; we need to find ways to combine Sailing Clubs and Training Centres, without losing the comraderie of a club, but taking advantage of two income streams, to provide the facilities that are expected in 2017. ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 28 Feb 17 at 4:06pm
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On a smaller scale, we are very much in the same position, Davidyacht. Not sure I recognise much of the Doom and gloom from other posts. Our junior group bases it's days round the RYA stages, but we give out certificates at the end of the season, so someone can take as long as they want in a group, even staying in it after being signed off if that is where their friends are.
Adult courses are another matter entirely, but we have had a lot of club input from quiet a few of our recent course members, helping with Sailability, juniors, crewing etc. Doesn't mean this year will do the same, but we work hard at keeping the training as something that suits the members. We just sometimes have to guess what that is, as it often isn't what they say! ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 28 Feb 17 at 8:11pm
| out of all courses and try outs last year (approx' 80 people) we gained 2 members 1 of these already disappeared, other 1 not missed a session, none of new members for last 2 years have learned to do duties, tbf they have all turned up on their duty days, but have not advanced enough to do on their own and not one could set a course |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 28 Feb 17 at 8:40pm
| I'll bet that's not entirely true. I suspect they could all set a course, just not one that a bunch of sailing anoraks considers proper. Who cares if the beat isn't square or there's no run? If someone is volunteering their free time to run a race for you, you should be grateful! |
Posted By: drifter
Date Posted: 28 Feb 17 at 8:47pm
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Duties have always been a small problem at our club in leafy Oxfordshire. One success was allowing people to choose between race duties, and catering
on a Sunday. Result-everyone does what they are comfortable with, and we have had restaurant-quality lunches every week (except August-no galley) for £2.50 per head. The vegetable curry at Sunday's prizegiving merited the biggest trophy of the year in my opinion. For those who don't sail, or can't cook, winter work parties maintaining the club grounds works too. Something for everyone, and out of about 500 adult members down to do duties, only half a dozen refuse to do anything. So we take their money anyway.
------------- Stewart |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 28 Feb 17 at 8:52pm
| Haha, no, tbf they are all interested, but can't grasp basics, we have a peg board and string, but even with this, blank looks. I never set a purists course when I am on duty, I always set a course to suit Laser type boats, fast reaching, no runs. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 28 Feb 17 at 11:55pm
| What? L@sers love runs (just look at Steve Cockrell's video)..... |
Posted By: ChichesterHiss
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 2:07am
| There was an explosion of sailing clubs in the second half of the last century. Nature will take its course. Some will thrive. Some will wither and fade away. |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 8:38am
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Exactly. Of course it is fine to academically observe and speculate. However, I can see little to no material benefit from the exercise. There is no universal rule, some Clubs are businesses and some are truly Clubs in the old sense. Rural lakes, Municipal Waters, Fee paying harbours, Beaches. Little or much, slow or fast, Clubs will follow demand. Sailing is by it's very nature weather dependant self motivated activity, which ultimately means you can only sell it to people who want to do it anyway.
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Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 9:50am
I'll take it that your not joking. You make it sound like a one way street. If I was giving time and effort with nothing in return then yes I could see your point.
I assume your club has a duty rota where all contribute, so it's a two way street. It's reciprocal, you are returning some effort to the communal pot that you also take advantage of, returning a favour. personally, I've laid some crap courses over the years but I think my efforts have improved. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 10:13am
| Duties are part of the deal, I want to race, for me to do that there has to be, at the very least somebody to run the start sequence and log the finish. Some kind of safety cover is nice too. If we're not paying somebody to do that then we all have to take a turn or nobody gets to race. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 10:20am
Absolutely, and if course setting is not done to a reasonable quality, that affects the whole quality of the club. Likewise if you can't get served at the bar, or get a cup of tea. Or any of the other things that volunteers and duty members might be doing to make the club work. It's all part of the deal. |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 10:23am
is that idea so pejorative...? I know a good few excellent sailors in retirement age, and indeed still in education, who might very easily be persuaded that their time could be better valued at a decent sailing club rather than stacking shelves in Tesco or answering banal questions from the plebs that frequent B&Q on a Saturday morning. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 10:38am
In the past I've raced windsurfing events (local/regional opens with a dozen or so racers) where courses have been set by an informal 'committee' of the racers. No reason why a couple of knowledgeable racers can't advise the inexperienced OOD so that a decent course can be arrived at.
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Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 10:46am
As much as I hate to admit it I think that is the only way that many clubs will survive. Fewer clubs making more money with paid positions. Local councils facing more pressure to capitalise on their land/property rental. Clubs facing closure. Changing attitudes of younger generations with time issues and a sense of entitlement (rightly or wrongly) expecting service for their subs..........Inability to share the honours, all sailing single handers. What do the rules say about taking selfies at the windward mark? Nothing?....it won't be long.....hopefully I'll not be sailing by then.
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 11:01am
c'mon, we all know you old boys hike harder when the camera boat is coming past .... you're just as egotistical as the 'sick dude' with his factory fit go-pro mount on his RS Aero. FWIW - I don't have a problem paying for hobbies and interests, time is more valuable than cash.
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 11:16am
No, not at all but most clubs don't seem to want to consider it.... status quo maybe?
4 people employed for 5 hours on a Sunday would, if you paid them minimum wage, cost the club a around £1200 (assuming around 35 race days in a year). For a club with 250 members a subs hike of £5 a year would cover it so it's not entirely unaffordable.
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 11:24am
you can probably double the real cost once you factor in administration - if you run it as a paid employment model - but your point still stands, even +£20 per member is nothing if it takes away the onus of 'duties' and makes the whole race management semi-professional rather than amatuerish and open to bi-lateral abuse.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 11:25am
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Are you sure about those sums?
My Excel makes 7.2 min wage * 5 hours £36 * 4 folk £144 * 35 weeks £5040 pa. Then as a very rough ballpark total costs of employing someone (insurance, admin, employers NI contributions etc) get close to doubling, so roughly £10K pa, divided by 250 members is £40 extra subs per year. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 11:29am
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Yup, way off base there, don't know how but mea culpa...... Not quite so affordable then :(
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 11:37am
Well, not unless you're TT anyway. |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 11:37am
Given the 35 weeks of sailing in the calcs.... that's as low as £1.14 per race day for semi-professional race management. Bargain basement if you ask me....
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 11:42am
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If you really want a work around, then don't pay those people via employment, offer them credit back against their own subs..... it removes the NI, tax and payroll costs for starters. edit: Although I'd see this as less attractive and arguably a little divisive if poorly implemented.
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Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 11:42am
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That's why most clubs don't use this business model and for inland clubs with fixed overheads it's just not possible. Draycote sc make it work, but only just. Think they have only made a profit twice in the last decade. On the other hand having to pay seven Trent in the region of 25k a year doesn't help their balance sheet much.
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 11:48am
I guess that's what exclusive use costs.... let's be honest, if ST didn't do that, it'd turn into one of those ridiculous ponds with about 5 different warring-factions sailing under different burgees..... a bit like that puddle next to the Ikea on the North Circular or a river tour of the arse hole of Essex - the Crouch. I'm sure that all makes great playtime for the Titty Walkers out there, but back here in the 21st Century, decent contract management was something our committee did very, very well to secure a future for the club. edit- duties are optional, they only apply to racing members which I think is a fair enough compromise given the parsimonious mindset of the majority of dinghy wallers. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 11:50am
| It is still possible, just, and with the cooperation of the 'employee', to get around the tax and NI issue (they need to be a self-employed 'freelance' and, provide the main equipment needed to do the job.... so boat, flags, stopwatch?) but it has been getting much more difficult as HMRC try to block any loopholes employed by the black economy. |
Posted By: Eisvogel
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 11:56am
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The main problem then, however, is that it's no longer a Club, but a Watersports Centre. It's not a communal thing where you socialise, but a commercial service, where you come, race, pay your money, and then go home again. Why would you need to interact with anybody else? Arguably that might be what some people want, but adding paid staff into the equation fundamentally changes the whole atmosphere. You are unhappy with the course? Complain, as you're paying good money to race, and are entitled to enjoy it. This won't work in a club. And it's not sustainable, unless run very well. A club is more resilient, as the expectations are lower: after all, we're all volunteers, and you cannot expect more than you would yourself be able to do. ------------- Enterprise 20361 (Eisvogel), Laser 102727 (Halcyon), Laser 121986 |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 11:59am
I appreciate your levity lol. and In general, not all youngsters of course but in very general terms there is a trend to move closer towards individuality amongst the younger generations, particularly with the millennials.......whether this is good or bad is of course a matter of opinion but one of the symptoms, which would be foolish to deny, is the rise of the "f**k you Jack I'm all right" attitude seen in nearly every quarter of what was ironically called "Western Civilization". The traditional volunteer run, member owned Sailing club is incompatible with this trend IMO. And yes I do have some very nice pics of us in a boat, the galling truth is that my crew is much more photogenic than me. She doesn't pout or wear ridiculous eyeliner either. |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 12:02pm
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Quite happy to do my RO duties three tims a year plus some opens ... I enjoy it, and get average points . I am not sure that I would want to race with courses set by the same race officer every week, particularly if he/she was a poor one. Different people bring different ideas, which adds to the variety. Some go the extra mile, some don't. But they are all volunteers and are appreciated. My course setting philosophy honed from when I was a youngster on a small lake, where we were encouraged to duties; is to set the best and longest possible beats that the water will allow, then build the rest of the course around them. ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 12:04pm
Thank Mrs T. ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 12:06pm
hmm, I'd say me and my snowdome membership would beg to differ.... it has the same 'groups' you find as sailing club Facebook groups etc. Historically there was even a section of old school foruming like this place for it. As for the beers.... well yes, we grab one and there are socials. The demographic of which is kids with their parents, teenagers, twenty somethings, students, thirty somethings and plenty in their 40s-60s too. They also organise about 4 or 5 ski trips abroad each year as part of wider groups..... it's all very collaborative on the ground, with professional management overseeing it with a commercial objective. So to say, 'it doesn't work' for a commercial operation to provide a sense of community is simply not true. Maybe to suggest dinghy sailing's primary mindset would rather wither away to an ageing core than adapt and survive to the realities of the 21st century ... well then sir, you might have a point. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 12:10pm
I thought one of the most interesting parts of the original paper I linked to was when it talks about the effects of what it calls ‘neo-liberal capitalism’, in particular the discussion around p46. It highlights that its probably a mistake to see things as a selfish attitude from individuals, but more as a reflection of changes to society. I shall stop there, because otherwise I shall get into very political territory, and while its desirable for sailing folk to work out how we should respond to visible changes in society, I think discussing the desirability of or alternatives to such change is best discussed elsewhere. |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 12:10pm
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 12:16pm
Sorry, no, I'm with Eisvogel entirely on this, and you can't compare a bloody fridge with a sailing club however you're tinted Oakley Goggles might paint it. To Outsiders, HISC, Weymouth, they're akin to the municiple baths of old, some curler in hair vape hanging from mouth Hilda Ogden sneering 'dyawantsauce in your sarnie luv' that'll be £10.50.. not quite the same and as for the 'distance' of the race team from you as a competitor, it might as well be run by the UN. In fact exactly like the experience we're about to have up in Londonistan this weekend at the hands of the peoples republic of Haringey. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 12:30pm
au contraire... we are talking about building communities, not facilities- and there are pretty shoddy examples of facilities calling themselves sailing clubs out there! I'm sure I could compare a breeze block building housing squash courts if I had first hand experience. I could certainly site sheds in fields that charge £500 per month to look after your family pets.... but that would probably be to showcase how 'not to do it' For guy who built a career from understanding beach and skate park communities, I'm curious as to why you can't see my point, but then if you turned up wearing googles at the dome, it wouldn't surprise me you'd get flagged as a gaper....
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Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 1:01pm
The word selfish is most often seen as a pejorative but being selfish in the right situation is a positive trait..a time to every purpose. The millenials were raised in a different global situation to myself. In general terms they are more "self oriented" than the baby boomer post war mob. Modern attitudes are a evolutionary and necessary reaction to very real societal pressures. The author of the article has got hold of the right thread IMO but he doesn't know the extent of that thread. Could write reams on this stuff but in a rush so skimped. |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 1:02pm
I don't think it's completely incompatible, I'd just suggest the number of sailing clubs that can carry on like that is unsustainable as numbers drop, and more critically, numbers of competent volunteers dwindle. Glad she doesn't pout.... or apply sh*t eyeliner. People have been keel-hauled for lesser crimes.
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Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 1:42pm
We normally react to changes in society by banging on about the 1960s and 70s. The paper makes a change by banging on about the 1860s and 70s..... |
Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 1:44pm
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we do not have duties at FFSC, we rely on a few 'ladies' to start our wednesday evening races. We now have an automatic starter that one of the yoof has made with some raspberries?? we have volunteer safety boats which although offers of duties have been made non taken. An active junior training centre full (just about on saturdays). we are now contemplating letting adults do training - open to the public but heavily discounted for club members- a complicated topic. A fledgling fleet of club boats available to hire for £10 for a multi £5 for a mono, to encourage participation without fuss. Net result? club membership is neither up nor down, but there are now some younger members actively changing how we sail and race. Does the dinosaur skiff sailor and dinosaur ok sailor like it? we still get to go sailing, we might complain that flags and what we deem as basics are being eroded.....but buckle up - we sail because base line we enjoy sailing. the racing will change but we are still sailing (with no duties! sailing / bar/ food) PS we have a paid club steward who does the bar, a restaurant franchise. so maybe not the cheapest beer on the east coast or the cheapest food. but it is bloody good adnams and top rated meals. so join us, and take part in going 'over the bar' ..... PPS by dinosaur skiff sailor i mean one that is ahem in his mid forties....ish! but no bomb craters for me sorry grf, but i did cycle 5 miles to school....
------------- Cheers you only me from over the sea...... |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 1:51pm
Communties are not necessarily 'clubs' as we know them, take kitesurfing, there are dozens of FB 'communities' where they agree where to ride and when, help each other out with lost kit etc We as a club did for a while try to accomodate them, the same as we attempted to draw short board recreational windsurfers to no avail, but they don't need us, don't actually want a fixed venue, travel with the wind direction. It is only the requirement for competitive or other 'organised' activity or social need that drives fixed clubs, last I was there I did even try to get a cross dressing evening going to attract Stand UP Paddleboarders.
Joking aside the only windsurfers that ever joined were racers and the only time Kites looked likely to group around us was during that period when kiting might have been an OLympic activity, that could yet happen, probably why your experience of snow boarding is different to mine, back in my day Snowboarding was never going to be a discipline of Ski-ing and was strictly the province of rebels. That may have altered and with it the rise of municiple fridge life, but I don't see our world benefiting in any way given the huge divergence of class and boat types not touched by the Olympic pathway. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 1:56pm
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As soon as a club becomes a commercial endeavour subs/prices etc have to go up simply because a club is typically a non profit organisation and a business' primary function is to make money for somebody. My local waterspouts centre charge £20 for a day ticket to sail on a tiny little puddle next to a motorway embankment (which, as it happens, is to the south-west of the lake thus buggering up the wind 9 days out of 10). And there's no racing.......
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 1:57pm
Child. You haven't lived.------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 2:00pm
That's if you can find a competent RO to work Sundays for min wage on a ZHC. The going rate is more like £200 to £300 a day. The problems is, when you start paying the RO, you have to start paying everyone from the RIB driver to those who muck in and haul the RIB up the beach. You'll want paid handymen, secretarial staff, interweb people. Directors instead of committee members. Why would you volunteer your time to prop up paid people? It's bad enough for clubs justifying buying in a Judge or a PRO for a Nationals when lots of members are giving their time for free. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 2:03pm
Sounds like some open meetings. Not pointing the finger at any particular class. Much.... |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 2:13pm
well exactly. That sort of high expense, paid staff approach is all very well for companies that pander exclusively to the well heeled executive class, but the sort of clubs I'm involved with have a good variety of ordinary working or retired working folk as well, and are all the better for it. |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 2:28pm
I think you've missed my point if you think what I'm suggesting is pandering to an executive elite.... quite the reverse in fact. I'm suggesting that human capital / sweat labour can get a reasonable and fair direct monetary value attributed to it, as opposed to the many relying on the few as per the usual situation when voluntary labour is the only option. The way I see it, maybe a few of those retired guys won't need to top up their pension with a casual weekend shift pattern at Wickes or WH Smith.... not if they get 50 quid for running the racing a couple of Sundays a month. If paying a fiver per head for the racing once a week is really too much of a stretch on top of the basic club subs for infrastructure, then frankly I think it's no wonder the sport is in decline.... and denial too. Yes, 'those fivers add up'.... but really it's not a lot compared to most other leisure activities out there. You can barely get two hours parking at the shopping centre for that..... never mind the milky coffees and meat ball paninis....
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Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 2:33pm
| You are of course entirely free to start a sailing club which runs on that basis. |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 2:36pm
Whatever the future is it won't happen overnight.........I think I'm safe from too much change so b***er everyone else. |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 2:37pm
I remain unconvinced that those retired guys will do a better job than an active dinghy sailor ... ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 2:49pm
indeed- and who knows, one day I might just do that. But you'd be mad to even consider it in the UK based on the general opinions show here- there just isn't the appetite to pay for sailing as there is for other leisure activities. Ironic though, the parsimony emanates from predominantly the same folks who think they are also entitled to Government handouts to keep them going... And honestly speaking I can't see anything like a 'new' sailing club being viable at all anywhere in the UK, not unless the old sailing club, and all those located around it, goes pop first. The market is mature - both in an economic and demographic sense. Anyway... I'm not suggesting any gloom and doom around the corner, or even a mass closing of sailing clubs.... that's all a long while off... and may never actually come to fruition.... there's probably enough latent interest to keep boats racing for a few decades yet, even if it means a few folks will move to the club up the road before they hang up their hikers for good.
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 2:54pm
depends - if sailing focuses on 'core' rather than mainstream participation, then the really active dinghy racer might well be giving up much club sailing and focusing on a circuit instead.... I'd rather pay the old guy we know to do a good enough job, than draw straws before taking covers off.
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Posted By: pompeysailor
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 3:44pm
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If I was to make my ideal club it would be: * Professional Admin, Bar, Bosun and P/T RO - to keep the club organised and running * Sailors do 2 duties per year - RO, RIB or Bar - its not the end of the world! * Wednesday Evening Racing - for people who cant get out at weekends * Friday Evening Racing- for people who cant get out at weekends * Sunday Racing - 2x Races in the morning - 10:30am & 11:30 - so not a whole day commitment * Facilities / Activities for Wives and Children to WANT to visit the sailing club * Kids Coaching / Learn to sail * Working alongide a Sailing school that encourages people to join the SC. * Number of exciting club boats to sail - nothing like a modern wayfarer etc. * Great Caterers * Bar open evenings and weekends with Social Events * End of Year Prize Giving / Social *** PLUS Lovely Sea Venue, Warm weather, all year round sailing, F3-4 Every day and always high water + Lots of OK Sailors to race against ------------- Formerly - OK 2145 Phantom 1437, Blaze 819, Fireball 14668, Mirror 54145 |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 4:05pm
Actually there is plenty of pay'n'play racing in the UK. In various forms. More to do with bigger boats. Sunsail will do you a race with 40ft boat any day. But also quite a few of the dayboat fleets in the Solent. Some have club owned boats. I think quite a few seaside clubs you can just turn up in the School Holidays and pay'n'play? Or you can do opens without being a club member. Winter series? A lot of special 'no duties' deals. Seems to me that a lot of the dissatisfaction with the way sailing is is related to the crapitude of living inland. Well there's a thing.... |