Youth Class ?
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1266
Printed Date: 06 Aug 25 at 11:01pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Youth Class ?
Posted By: boatshed
Subject: Youth Class ?
Date Posted: 05 Dec 05 at 11:28am
|
Which double handed class should youths choose ? 29er or 420 ? Both are part of the RYA Training Programme. ------------- Steve |
Replies:
Posted By: Olly4088
Date Posted: 05 Dec 05 at 11:47am
|
29er every time ------------- Phantom 1298 |
Posted By: Ian S
Date Posted: 05 Dec 05 at 12:20pm
| looking at the figures people are voting with their feet and choosing the 420.. |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 05 Dec 05 at 12:30pm
|
Depends what appeals to them. Speed freaks will get more out of the 29er ... tactical/technical types will prefer the 420. I think the class that is selected for the youth worlds will usually prosper until the selected class changes again ... Rick ------------- |
Posted By: Bumble
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 2:56am
| 420... no contest. Fleet size, fleet quality, boat quality, boat economics, international recognition....... 420 every time. If its too slow for you, you should be in a cat. The 29er isn't that much faster. Exciting doesn't have to mean the fastest boat..... I don't think there is anything more scary than goosewinging an ent in a big sea. |
Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 8:40am
Personal preference. no contest 
------------- |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 9:35am
|
If you want a 470 medal sail 420
If you want a 49er medal sail 29er If you think there'll be a ladies skiff medal by the time you're Olymoic age and you want that sail 29er. And If you don't give a **** about medals go for a yacht in one of each and then sail whichever you'll have most fun sailing. |
Posted By: Bumble
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 9:59am
|
You can look at it this way........ you youth period is a learning/training time for when you grow up to sail with the grown ups; and have a shot at the much coverted scorpion national championship of all of England. That being the case, sail what you like, and do it with adults getting the best training, practise and support... and probably show them a thing or two. If my parents had offered to buy me a boat Id ask for a Cherub, or a new scorpion.... or one of those new RS500.... sounds cool, man ! |
Posted By: m_liddell
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 12:10pm
..and both have a place since they are 'mini versions' of their bigger olympic sisters. What is comes down to is do you want a skiff or not? |
Posted By: Contender 541
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 12:22pm
I cannot believe no-one has said that the only class to learn in is a Cherub. Perhaps the boys have not yet seen this thread and thought of a way to hijack it  ------------- When you find a big kettle of crazy it's probably best not to stir it - Pointy Haired Boss Crew on 505 8780 |
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 12:34pm
|
Choice would have to be the 29er.
420's are horrid IMO - sailed one; hated it never sailed one again. But the youth class should actually be the Spitfire / F16 ------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: Bumble
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 1:38pm
|
good point... leaving the way wide open for me to give a gratuitous plug for the Scorpion. Not only economical to sail on budget and kind to a very wide range of crew weights (youths really do have an even keel against bigger adults) but the well supported class sailing nation wide is without competition, the friendliest you will possibly encounter. Sail Scorpion!!!!!!!!!!! |
Posted By: BBSCFaithfull
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 1:43pm
|
Although both boats are good, they are both quite size dependant for example i am 6'2-3 and weigh between 12'10 and thirteen stone and my crew is similar and we are much 2 big for the supposed youth boats . Me and my m8 sail a 4000 because it has the equalisation system which means it is compettitve with other 4000 sailors. Whereas the 420 and 9er are very much crew dependant in copetition. In My opinion they should scrap both boats and go with the 4K!! Its much faster and requires a much better sailor to sail it well! ------------- Greatfully Sponsored By www.allgoodfun.com Int 14 GBR 1503!! |
Posted By: Bumble
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 2:11pm
|
On your bike, the 4k isn't that quick and is outdated, it is an overweight skiff wannabe, with the only design brief being cheap to manufacture! The only thing a L4000 would be good for would be keep the stupid masses buying new stuff, thus maintaining consumer sector growth, thus looking after my investments and keeping me in Scorpions (and crisps)! |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 8:09pm
I've taught quite a few people to sail in my Cherubs over the years. But its no longer a practical option. Back in the 60s there was even a Sailing school that used Cherubs, but they were very different boats then. |
Posted By: nathan
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 9:06pm
Thats is drivel! I'll give you that its much faster than a 420, but only marginal quicker than a 29er- py only varies (920-906=14) by a tiny amount... Quite how a much better sailor is needed to sail it well is totally unfounded!! It is a relatively striaghtforward boat to sail.. conventional rig (proctor ali mast) and hull shape.. I would say most sailors in this country would find the 29er considerably harder to master, it being a skiff and the associated handling chanes. Along with a fundamentally different rig with a composite mast section, and crew playing mainsheet. A 4000 is fairly popular, and the standard at the front of the fleet is comparable to many other national classes, but I wouldn't say it needed a better sailor to sail the boat well than any other class....
|
Posted By: damp_freddie
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 9:06pm
"Oooh, you are awful....but I like you." |
Posted By: HannahJ
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 9:12pm
|
Was it Michael Crawford who said that?
------------- MIRROR 64799 "Dolphin" The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist hopes it will change; the realist adjusts the sail |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 9:21pm
|
dick emery i think ... ------------- |
Posted By: boatshed
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 10:37pm
|
I raised this point in order to chose between two "youth" boats - not discuss Scorpions, L4000 etc ! Both the 420 & 29er are part of the RYA Youth Programme. Also, the 29er is now the ISAF class for the 2007 & 8 worlds and the adopted youth class in Germany. If you were 16 ( I wish) and wanted to follow a prescribed training programme in the UK, which boat would it be ? Jim C gave the clearest answer but if the 29er becomes the ISAFyouth boat, will the very great, current appeal of the 420, along with its following quickly fade or will this class become the Girls youth class ? I believe their should be some guidance on this matter as it is the parents who pay.
------------- Steve |
Posted By: simsy
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 10:44pm
|
Ahh yes.....get rid of both the 29er and 420, and replace it with a boat that is highly suitable for two youngsters to carry up a slip way, which is full of lead, and racks that require a leap of faith in order to get on to.
|
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 11:28pm
Just ask your kid(s) what he/she wants ... if you get the boat that is recommended but you child wants the other then they will drift away from the sport ... ------------- |
Posted By: Skiffman
Date Posted: 07 Dec 05 at 10:08am
|
I sail a 29er and prefer it to the 420, but there is no better boat at. And for anyone who hasn't ever raced a 29er in a big compeition and says its not as tactical as a 420 then you dont know what you are talking about. The 29er is tactical, at the top level like any class all then boats go the same speed and you dont just ring the bell every beat like alot of people think you do. The 29er is also very tactical downwind and it opens up a whole new level of gains and losses. Someone also said that the 420 was cheaper?!?! That is not true, a 29er costs £5500, including everything to sail, thats it. Compared to the 420 which i know that the top guys pay more than that for everything needed to sail. The sails on a 29er last at least 4 weeks long regattas, wheras a 420 jib goes in a week along with the kite. The 29er has a really large competitive weight range from about 100-145kgs, especially at the worlds last year but they were in San Fran were we had crews of 160kgs in gold fleet and us who were 130kgs and in 25knots we could go the same speed. Its all personal preferance and which boat you want to sail and not which boat is right to sail. The RYA has always pushed people from junior classes into 420s but now its not the isaf boat (or not in 07 or 08) there pushing kids in the 29er. I picked the 29er because i wanted to go into 49ers after and for some reason i really do not like 420s at all. I think im also a speed freak because going out in 25-30knots in a 29er a ripping upwind and downwind is awsome. The RYA screwed up by dropping the 405 because now youngsters are supposed to jump from a oppy to a 29er and they are completly different. I use to sail a 405 and there awsome boats when your young, and 3 out of the 4 GBR 29ers in the Gold Fleet at the Worlds came out of 405, and the top 2 male 29ers in the UK now are also ex 405 sailors which has to say something when they have tiny fleets. anyway my thoughts oh and laser 4ks are not quicker than 29ers lol ------------- 49er GBR5 http://www.teamfletcherandsign.co.uk - teamfletcherandsign.co.uk Team Fletcher and Sign campaign site |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 07 Dec 05 at 10:16am
For the forseeable future the Youth worlds boat will swap between 420 and 29er at regular intervals. The reason is that the choice of boat is defined by what they can get a manufacturer to supply. So when the event is in European mainland it will probably be 420s, when its in USA/Australia probably 29ers and so on. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 07 Dec 05 at 10:18am
| I would say thet if you're jumping straight from Oppy to 29er then What are you doing sailing an Oppy at that age? The Topper/29er jump seems to present no major problems to plenty of good sailors, girls and blokes, where I sail. |
Posted By: Ian S
Date Posted: 07 Dec 05 at 1:19pm
Surely no sail maker is putting their name to a sail which will last only a week? |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 07 Dec 05 at 2:47pm
The sailmaker probably will say it lasts longer, but will hope that the sailors will continue to believe it doesn't. |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 07 Dec 05 at 2:59pm
It all depends on what you call "last" I would expect the sails of both classes to last much longer than the above - thankfully the days of the 2oz jib are gone ... Rick ------------- |
Posted By: Bumble
Date Posted: 07 Dec 05 at 3:11pm
I have never heard of a sail which remains the same through a 4week regatta, but thats not the same a 'lasts'. We all expect plenty from our sails, and while Ive never used them (the boats that is), I wouldn't expect 29er sailors to be any different. Would make a good new thread, this subject. |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 07 Dec 05 at 7:18pm
A fully battened mylar sail will hold it's shape for ages ... I'd happly enter a major event with a sail with 4 weeks use. The difference is usually the helm anyway ... Rick ------------- |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 07 Dec 05 at 9:40pm
|
I must be doing something wrong...surely a 4 weeks of use sail is, unless you happen to be sailing at Olympic level (and sometimes even there) new. The difference between a new sail and one with (say) a summer's use, is so small that for almost all sailors there will be no noticable difference in performance. Unless you have left it all day every day to flog in the wind, of course, but that is just stupidity. My 10 year old sails, however, probebly could do with a change, though they still win races...when I don't stop them, anyway. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Contender 541
Date Posted: 07 Dec 05 at 10:02pm
|
Does this mean that occasionally I should be changing sails?? I thought that they should be as soft as a bed sheet Hang on a minute...is that why I was given 2 spares when I bought C 541. Think I will change for the softest one and only think about changing back to the crisp ones when I have the remotest clue about what I am doing ------------- When you find a big kettle of crazy it's probably best not to stir it - Pointy Haired Boss Crew on 505 8780 |