What is the pinnacle of our sport?
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1261
Printed Date: 15 Aug 25 at 4:41am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: What is the pinnacle of our sport?
Posted By: Guest
Subject: What is the pinnacle of our sport?
Date Posted: 04 Dec 05 at 5:59pm
|
Interesting to read the article in the latest Y&Y about Beadsworth & Carr. I have to agree with Beadsworth that the Olympics is the pinnacle – it is the purest test of an individual(s) sailing ability. If we are looking for a test of a broader range of skills – technology, design, teamwork, financing, project management then it has to be the Americas Cup in my view. Where would the other major events fit?
How would you define an ultimate sailing champion? Rick |
Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 04 Dec 05 at 6:41pm
|
There's no one pinnacle, which in my view is a good thing. The Little Americas Cup - the C Class event is certainly a pinnacle, so is the outright speed record.
The top of true skiff sailing, for al its an AUS/NZ event only is probably the 12 foot skiff interdominion champs, with the other skiff classes being much less open in design these days. And how can you possibly exclude the International Moth World Championships? |
Posted By: m_liddell
Date Posted: 04 Dec 05 at 7:32pm
|
It's difficult to say the Americas Cup etc. because there is such a large team involved, all specializing in different areas. I'd probably have to go with Olympic Gold in the Laser class, since it is usually regarded as the most competitive and one design of all classes. Possibly the 49er class has this aspect too.
|
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 04 Dec 05 at 7:33pm
|
Almost impossible to answer. TBH it would have to be the following: Gold Medal in the Tornado at the Ollys - Elvestron managed a fiar colection, but this was the one he could not get. Sydney Hobart win Volvo ocean race win Americas Cup win. Vendee Globe win. Couple of speed records. I.e. Impossible ! No-one is going to do them all. I'd have to say that maybe a Gold in anything, followed by a America's cup win, plus some single handed would come out well. Ben's got a chance (Ellen needs to win a gold in the olly's). But our sport is so difficult that I don't think you can have an pinnacle that people will agree on. ------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 04 Dec 05 at 8:54pm
That's why it's an interesting topic ... I still think the Olympics is the purest test ... Our sport has many challenges each not easy to win; this is one of the reasons why it struggles with the media and sponsors ... but if we had to pick one what would it be? Perhaps easier to ask the question - who is the best sailor of all time? I'd say Coutts - Olympic Gold, 3 Americas Cup plus many others ... ------------- |
Posted By: 5420
Date Posted: 04 Dec 05 at 9:21pm
|
if you think about its a bit like saying who is the best car and bike racer keel boats being cars and dinghys being bikes there are many grat people but they are all good at difrent things so you would have to say who is best at each thing i would say coutts for keel and ben anlasy for dinghys ------------- |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 04 Dec 05 at 9:23pm
Can any seriously not say its Paul Elvstrom? |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 04 Dec 05 at 9:25pm
|
I did consider him of course but did he ever achieve in the AC or other keel boat events?
------------- |
Posted By: smurfer
Date Posted: 04 Dec 05 at 9:26pm
Ellen Mac hitting the top spot in Top Gear's 'star in a reasonably priced car'?
|
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 04 Dec 05 at 9:28pm
|
I just watched that ... I think that says a lot about her determination and ability to learn fast ... ------------- |
Posted By: Philsy
Date Posted: 04 Dec 05 at 10:24pm
Wasn't that wonderful! As was the touching tribute to Richard Burns. ------------- |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 04 Dec 05 at 11:03pm
Never eligible for the AC. This is his list of world championship wins. I think two Star Worlds, " Soling Worlds and 2 Half Ton worlds makes him an adeaquate keelboat sailor. FD x 1; 505 x 2; Star x 2; 5.5m x 1; Finn x 2; Snipe x 1; Soling x 2; Dragon x 1; Half Tonner x 2 |
Posted By: Bumble
Date Posted: 05 Dec 05 at 2:01am
I couldn't agree less. The Olympics is the pinnacle championships for the classes that are involved. All those not included have their own pinnacle, to name a few big ones: POW, Ent worlds, Scorpion Inlands, Errwood Gradute open..etc.
And Andy Bea' is bound to say that....after all, he's been in it.........well, I was heavily involved in a campaign for the Glossip and District Scorpion open a few years back so, I say that is the pinnacle - the purest test of blah blah blah.
I mean, really!!!! such arrogance makes me want to puke.....urggggg |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 05 Dec 05 at 2:20am
|
Bumble, the "pinnacle of OUR SPORT" is surely quite different from the pinnacle of a local class, no? While I understand the point, I wonder if the AC stuff like fund-raising ability should be counted as part of the pinnacle of the sport. If it is, Larry Ellison would probably be the best sailor around as his ability to earn money, raise a team etc is so high and he can sort of sail. I dunno if Andy B is being arrogant - even international officials and world champs from classes as proud as Int 14s and 505s are now happy to refer to their classes as amateur classes where a different level of campaigning is required. Paul Elvstrom was invollved in an AC effort (for the French) but got sacked. Being sacked by a French AC effort is probably a badge of honour though! :-) Paul didn't get a Tornado medal but IIRC he got 4th, at about 56 years old. How would he have done in Finns at 56? Surely therefore you can't use the fact that he only got close to a medal as an indication that Ts (the least popular of all Olympic classes) are the pinnacle. The bronze medallist in the Ts at Athens didn't have anywhere near as much experience in the class as other T sailors, yet they did very well and (IIRC) one of them did a lot better than he did in Lasers. I'll have to disagree with Jim about the world Moth championships. They are good sailors but it's such a tiny class, and to be perfectly honest the former winners have not moved to other classes and dominated like former world champs in some other classes have. The ones I know are all great sailors and great blokes, but better than Ainslie??????????? IMHO it's impossible to say what the pinnacle is as you can't compare Lasers to 470s to Around Alone. One candidate would have to be Robby Naish. He started winning worlds at about 13 and went on to win about 16 world titles. He sailed SMOD longboards, Olympic D2 boards, long raceboards, slalom boards, waveboards, etc and won multiple worlds in each (apart from D2s where he was 2nd). His versatility, from upwind light-air tactics to looping the loop, was extraordinary. He was also a consumate professional and PR man and a good guy. When he was at his peak, there were 1 million boards being sold each year.....such numbers meant competition was HOT. IF you could compare such things (and IMHO you can't) he was better than Ainslie etc but better than Elvstrom????? Hmmmmmm. Of course, Ben has many years yet to go and we don't know what he'll do. Dennis Connor reckons Bill Buchan, multiple Star world champ while still being an amateur, could have been the best on the planet. But DC reckons Stars are the hottest class while the top of the Star rankings are full of guys who only recently moved in from Finns. If Star sailors were so good, how come you can walk in and beat them so quickly? |
Posted By: a_stevo
Date Posted: 05 Dec 05 at 4:32am
|
all questions about the pinacle of the sport are always going to be hypothetical and full of conjecture. personally a laser world championship is to me a pinacle. I sailed in the last moth worlds, came 16th form memory and i dont think ive ever drunk that much in a regatta, or been that unfit going into a regatta or been that far off the pace of the winning boats. If anyone approached a laser championship in the same manner you'd be a long way out the back door. other big achievements would be a 49er world championship, im not into keelboats, but ive got a lot of respect for anyone who wins world championships in boats like the farr 40's or etchells or dragon. I dont like the boat but to win you have to be good. When it come to the crunch its not really important though. people chose the type of sailing they want o do, and the sort of comitment they are willing to put in. Personlly, i like fun, fast small boats, these happen to have small fleets but i tried lasers and just got bored. |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 05 Dec 05 at 5:29am
Thanks for a very well-balanced post Stevo.
|
Posted By: Blobby
Date Posted: 05 Dec 05 at 7:58am
|
It is very difficult to define a single pinnacle in a sport which is so varied in its nature. In tennis the four Grand Slams are played on different surfaces - winning Wimbledon is the pinnacle of grass court, the French Open the pinnacle of clay - but the mark of a true master is not just winning one but taking titles on all. In sailing each class has its own pinnacle, and each type of sailing has its own pinnacle...all building up into a range of himalayan proportions. Now if you could come up with a Decathlon of sailing ranging from Laser through skiffs, sports boats, match racing, and minis to Open 60 multis solo round the world (without a shore-based team of weather routers) then that may represent the Everest...but as an event it doesn't exist and probably never will. But defining the pinnacle of the sport doesn't necessarily define the greatest sailor of the time or of all time - many have climbed to the top of Everest but not all of them are the greatest climbers in the world! |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 05 Dec 05 at 9:16am
I said a pinnacle Chris. After all, to reverse your point about moving into other clsses, Olympic sailor Adam May does very very well in the Moths but he hasn't won a Champs either. As far as pure racing round a track obviously th Olympics are a different level to anything else, but one of the good things about our sport is that there are so many aspects to it. |
Posted By: furtive
Date Posted: 05 Dec 05 at 9:32am
it also proves that it pays not to weigh very much. |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 05 Dec 05 at 10:38am
OK, I thought it meant one of the larger pinnacles. Mea culpa. Good point about Adam not dominating. I get the feeling there is a difference between ultimately how hard it is to win in a class, and how long it may take to get used to the class. Finns are a tough class but you can move into the top ranks pretty quickly because they are fairly similar to a lot of other classes, other classes may not be sailed to the same standard but they are so unusual or hard to keep upright that even the best take a while to learn them. It may be like switching to windsurfers - even if the standard in a windsurfer class is not enormously high, even a brilliant dinghy sailor will still take a long time to move to the front of the fleet. The class to class comparison is always hurt by the fact that one class can suit someone better than another.....interesting that Nicho reckoned some people who you would expect to sail very well move into 49ers and don't succeed, while others you wouldn't hold much hope for do very well. But I dunno about these things, I'm just interested in other people's observations. |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 05 Dec 05 at 10:38am
I think that her skill at the task was 99% of the issue and perhaps 1% weight ... ------------- |
Posted By: furtive
Date Posted: 05 Dec 05 at 11:04am
OK, you keep telling yourself that! Although it was doubtless a good performance, being 40kg lighter than a lot of the opposition would make a significant difference in such an underpowered car. |
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 05 Dec 05 at 11:24am
Not a great deal IMO. Car is going to be (around, and it's a guess) 1000kg, so 40kg is 0.4% of mass; maybe she gained a little more in the corners by being lower too; another small %.
Skill and learning fast. The comments from Clarkson about being on the correct line were telling. She did not get the red mist down and just go for it like whats-his-name the week before. Just cool, collected and accurate - going 3 laps in the within 0.3 of a second shows she was spot on. Edit. Times for all people on the challenge are here: http://www.suzuki4.co.uk/liana_html/liana_frameset2.html - Top gear times ------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE
Date Posted: 05 Dec 05 at 11:49am
|
Mate, don't forget the 2 World Championships he won in the class with his daughter crewing as she did at the Olympics. Has there been any other females represent the Tornado class at an Olympics or even won a Worlds. The greatest catamaran sailor of all time and one of the worlds greatest ever sailors, The Olympics only come every 4 years and whilst it is easier to win at an Olympics against a much smaller fleet compared to the fleet sizes you see at a Worlds...... It is an enormous achievement just to represent and is something only a select few sailors will ever achieve. Added to this, a successful team must work up to a 4 year peek at the right time to come away with a gold. 4 to 8 years of pure determination, focus, training and development for one regatta is only something an Olympic Athlete can fully comprehend. My hat is off to all that have succeeded in representing. Therefore I believe that for dinghy, cat, windsurfer and small keel boats..... The absolute pinnacle would have to be an Olympic Gold. ------------- 
http://www.formula18alive.com - www.formula18alive.com |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 05 Dec 05 at 12:27pm
Quite ... last week it was Ian Wright (Arsenal football player) he was all over the place ... a much more entertaining lap I have to say and not abad time. Anyway ... what were we talking about ... ------------- |
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 05 Dec 05 at 12:46pm
|
I wonder how fast Ian Wright could go if he had the proper line...
Would be a giggle to get the top 10 (say) back and give them in a go in a single seater and see what they could do. ------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 05 Dec 05 at 12:56pm
|
Here are the times; http://www.bbc.co.uk/topgear/star_laps/ - http://www.bbc.co.uk/topgear/star_laps/ Now - back on topic. Is the ISAF sailor of the year thing the best we'll ever come to a pinnacle?
------------- |
Posted By: Bumble
Date Posted: 05 Dec 05 at 3:23pm
|
Car is going to be (around, and it's a guess) 1000kg, so 40kg is 0.4%.... yeah good point, except she would be 4% saved, which is quite good. If I knocked 4%off my boat it would be illlegal. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 05 Dec 05 at 3:51pm
And also 40kg less adhesive weight so less grip under braking and acceleration and round the corners... |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 05 Dec 05 at 4:04pm
|
Agreed it is an advantage to be light ... but I'd guess she is about 60kgs and the average bloke about 80kgs so it's more like a 2% advantage on weight. Even so I think she did a great job beating people on that list who fancy themselves as racing drivers like Jay Kay and Jodie Kidd. Hats off I say ... Rick ------------- |
Posted By: Bumble
Date Posted: 05 Dec 05 at 4:42pm
|
yeah... well done to the little middles class girly who did something that has nothing to do with yachting. |
Posted By: MikeBz
Date Posted: 05 Dec 05 at 4:43pm
|
But also less weight to accelerate/decelerate. Tyres aren't linear - if you add weight then for sure you increase the grip available from the tyre, but the extra grip achieved is less than the extra grip required to accelerate/decelerate the extra mass. Hence more weight means slower. Not that the weight was relevant in this case, being such a small proportion of the all-up weight. Apologies for prolonging the thread hijack... Mike |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 05 Dec 05 at 4:54pm
|
Ok - back on topic ...? ------------- |
Posted By: Philsy
Date Posted: 05 Dec 05 at 4:55pm
1000kg would be very light for a modern car. I'd guess it would be nearer 1400kg. There's no way that the weight of the driver would have any noticeable effect on the performance. ------------- |
Posted By: Philsy
Date Posted: 05 Dec 05 at 4:57pm
Ouch, that's harsh. If you'd read her autobiography you'd know that her background is far from conventional and she achieved her success by sheer determination and hard work. ------------- |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 05 Dec 05 at 4:58pm
|
Paul Elvestrom is,undoubtedly, the greatest ever "regatta" helmsman i.e. sailing short races round bouys (even including the Half Ton "offshore races). I would rate Dennis Conner as the ultimate keelboat sailor (AC, Stars and many more). But surely someone like Paul Cayard deserves a place in our Hall of Fame for the variety of events in which he has succeeded (including the Star Worlds's, AC and various round the worlds - and still competing). Torben Grael, after the Olympics and the AC is now trying to follow in his footsteps around the world Funny that - they all sailed in the oldest Olympic class...the one everybody hates except those who have had the honour and privilege to sail in them! Could this be telling us something about the pinnacle of our sport? Mind you they all sailed in Snipes at some stage of their career as well... Gordon
------------- Gordon |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 05 Dec 05 at 8:05pm
| You can't realistically include the AC as a measure of the greatest because winning it to a very large extent was whether you managed to get employed by the right team. A very valuable professional skill of course, but hardly a measure of greatness. |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 05 Dec 05 at 8:43pm
|
I'd say the likes of Coutts and Connors built then lead their teams to victory rather than just jumping on board the favorite ... ------------- |
Posted By: damp_freddie
Date Posted: 05 Dec 05 at 11:31pm
|
Back on topic- I'm not gonna say any trite like 'it could be the topper fleet at Gravel&Weed SC' There are two types of boats, and one type of race- The first requires both athleticism and finesse to sail and has pushed the envelope of design and materials for over 100 years now The sydney harbour 18 foot skiff If I was a mere 20 years younger I might dare to aspire to them Secondly, the humble laser You can take your canting keels and aramids to terra del fuego and sink em there- the purity of sailing is what is beautiful in this class. |
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 05 Dec 05 at 11:38pm
My Impreza is 1235kg! ------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: Bumble
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 2:48am
|
Sorry for quoteing myself (damp freddies style). This post of mine appears to have rubbed some of my fellow posties the wrong way. This wasn't intended as an attack on Ellie, who I respect and admire for achieving blah blah in the face of difficulty, always trying, blah blah etc. I simply wanted to highlight how far off the topic the posts had gone by implying it was an ordinary thing done by an (in this context) ordinary person. I therefore unreservedly retract the post and hope everyone is still my friend.
The thinking behind this post was to highlight just how self inflaterly it is refering to a competition an individual was involved in as the pinnacle of anything. Anyone can validly claim an event is the pinnacle, except those who entered it. Trite indeed, but not literal. |
Posted By: Philsy
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 9:11am
You're right - the Suzuki is 1160kg. I'm used to German cars which tend to be lardier. ------------- |
Posted By: Bogg Inne
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 10:23am
|
saw a sad git in a white imprezza with Scooby in huge letters along the side few saturdays ago north end M6 , Guess the size of the drivers trouser trumpet is inversersely proportionate to the height of the subtle lettering .guess the size of his exhaust didn't draw enough attention .
You want to track this fella down , he's givin you a bad name !
Cars are for getting you to yur boat .
|
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 10:55am
I've adopted the "run a classic car" - OK mine is only 9 years old, but most of the other ones have been stolen and crashed. Mine's also only done 55K miles And yes there are some muppets out there. Best bit is that mine is quicker than the new "standard" WRX's and they just don't understand why a P reg car is quicker than their new WRX If you are into German cars, you should come and take a look at Tyresmoke. German as in Audi/VW, or BMW etc ? ------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: Philsy
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 11:34am
German as in Porsche - sadly I don't own one, just write about them - www.total911.com ------------- |
Posted By: Shingle
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 11:38am
|
On the strength of that I'm cancelling my Trabant enthusiast membership! ------------- Drink Feck girls! |
Posted By: Philsy
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 1:29pm
I bet a Trabant would be affected by the weight of the driver! ;) ------------- |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 2:10pm
|
4th in the 1968 Olympics in a Star. 13 world championships in 7 different classes. 4 Olympic Golds. Still sailing Finns at an age when most people are on Zimmer frames. Nobody else comes remotely close as the greatest sailor of all time. To answer your original question, the pinnacle is either Olympic Gold or a World Championship win in a major international class. What is really impressive is a record at that level in several different classes. AC: not as impressive to me. The thing about dinghy sailing is that, at least in the major sailing countries, anyone with the talent can get the funding to compete. It may not be easy but it can be done. In AC you are really competing against a tiny pool of people, albeit highly talented ones. Dragons, Farr 40s etc. - these are such team efforts that it is hard to attribute success to one person. I ran a 5-person keelboat for several seasons and I know I got my best regatta results when I had the best crew around me. It's not a one-person show, even if one person is "in charge". And in high profile classes like Dragons and Farr40s, the helm will very likely be paying professional crew. So while the helm certainly needs sailing talent, they also need $$$$ to succeed.
|
Posted By: Bumble
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 2:15pm
I think Lawrie Smith does! |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 2:24pm
Argument is interesting, assertion is boring. Justify your view please. |
Posted By: Philsy
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 2:30pm
|
How about the Ellen MacArthurs and Francis Chichesters of this world?
Surely their acheivements are hard to beat. (and I'm not talking about lap times!) ------------- |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 2:35pm
|
The question was "How would you define an ultimate sailing champion?" While we might admire Ellen and Francis's achievements, I don't see how you can call them "sailing champions" at all.
|
Posted By: Bumble
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 2:38pm
|
Lawrie Smith has won the Fireball world, European and national championships (three times), and national championships, 470 French championship, and the Endeavour Trophy (champion of champions) twice.Olympic medial winner in the Soling, World Champion in Six-metre, ent and Fireball, National or European Champion in the J24, 505, Merlin Rocket and Ultra 30, Endeavour Trophy (Champion of Champions) twice, Admiral’s Cup: Winner, top boat and Fastnet winner, America’s Cup: Skipper of Lionheart and Victory, Whitbread: Skipper of Rothmans and Intrum Justitia. Thats just for starters, my memory is very rusty. I also would like to add that many of these were won when the classes were very, very competitive (I know, subjective)..... Elvi' while a great innovator, showed people how to sail faster round the course, in a time when 'gentlemen' didn't hike. And still only 50. Sorry for being lazy before but typing hurts my hands |
Posted By: Philsy
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 2:41pm
|
Depends on how you define champion. Ellen has won plenty of races... ------------- |
Posted By: Bumble
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 2:50pm
| Yeah... rubbish, isn't he, that Lawrie Smith...... not even been on the BBC for going round the world on his own yet. |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 2:55pm
|
Such as? With more than a handful of other boats competing? She is more of a record specialist. Actually what "champion" means in our sport is pretty clearly defined. Champion = winner of a class championship. Preferably, World Champion of an ISAF-recognised international class.
|
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 2:59pm
|
So I make that one Olympic medal to Elvstrom's 4 golds, 1 world championship to Elvstrom's 13. Yes Smith did a lot but compared to Elvstrom; not in the same league. If Lawrie is only 50, what's he done lately? Seems to have given up sailing completely, or does anyone know better?
|
Posted By: Philsy
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 3:03pm
Oh, what a pedant ;) How many boats do you need to compete against before you can be called a champion? Going back to Rick's original question, I'd argue that some of the round the world events are the pinnacle of the sport, and that's what Ellen and others do. ------------- |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 3:16pm
|
Forgive me for being unimpressed if it is only a handful. For example, the current yawn-worthy Volvo race. |
Posted By: Philsy
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 3:19pm
Bet you wouldn't be yawning if you were a competitor. Let's face it, no form of sailing is really an exciting spectator sport, is it? (hides quickly...) ------------- |
Posted By: Bumble
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 3:26pm
Like I said.... just off the top of my rusty old head.....its gotta be more than 1 world champ. The guy's a walking legend but I can't back it up cos I don't have the figures. Can anyone out there help...please |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 4:01pm
|
Ever done an offshore race that lasts a few days or more? In fact you do masses of yawning. Sleep deprivation is a form of torture, as EM reminded us. |
Posted By: Philsy
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 4:03pm
lol! OK, you have a point there! ------------- |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 5:25pm
|
In 1966 Elvstrom won the World Championship in 505 (heeling from the trapeze), 5.5 metre (then an Olympic class) and the Stars. Between the 505 Worlds and the 5.5s he broke his leg. He beat in the process some remarkable sailors - Larry Marks, Jim Hardy, Lowell North... Let us compare like with like - Chichester, Macarthur, Tabarly are/were remarkable seamen. But they were/are involved in a different sport, that requires different talents to the sport of racing small sailing boats. Would anyone try to establish a hierarchy between, for instance, winners of the Grand National, the Derby, horse jumping, polo, carraige eventing and 3 day eventing. All the have in common is the use of a horse, the active involvement of various members of the Saxe-Coburg- Gotha family and a major contribution to many Frenchmen's diet! Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 5:47pm
|
And in sailing too. Not sure the comparison between sailing and horsey-stuff stands up that well. Large numbers of people seem to find horsey-games entertaining viewing. Now if we only could get the public betting on the outcome of sailing races, we'd be laughing all the way to the bank. |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 6:29pm
The point is that nobody pretends that all the different types of competetive activity involving our four legged friend are the same sport. We refer to equestrian sports (using the plural). I believe that we should talk about sailing sportS, a family of related sports using wind-powered floating objects (to include the windsurfers). In which case there cannot be one pinnacle but several. Few manage to attain the summits in several disciplines - i would suggest that someone like Paul Cayard is one of them. I would also point out that we have been talking almost exclusively of helmsmen/women. People who twiddle bits of wood, or steel, at the more comforable end of the boat are in a minority in our sport.
Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: Bumble
Date Posted: 07 Dec 05 at 8:27am
Thats a very good point.... who can recall the name of the guy who crewed Rodney Pats to 3 gold medals.... you know, whatsisname...... and that guy with the beard at the front of Smiths Fireball......, thingamejig. Come to mention it, Ive forgotten my own crews name.... you know, bob, no rob, no andy.....oh.... whatsameblokey, with the red life jacket. |
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 07 Dec 05 at 11:40am
|
so we cannot agree. The reason being that we have differnt sports / skills Olympics is small fleet racing, so a premium on boat speed. Large fleet worlds - also boat speed, but starting becomes veryu important and the ability to get your self out of a problem Short off shore type races, spee, tactics loacl knowledge Longer off shore (fastnet, Hobart etc). Speed, skills in boat prep, Nav etc Longer races VOR - speed, boat prep, Nav, routing, weather etc Long single handed / Non stop races - speed, boat prep and the ability to fix on the move etc, Nav, Weather, routing, sleep stress etc.
------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 07 Dec 05 at 12:41pm
Perhaps sponsors have got bored with him breaking stuff and not finishing:-) More likely the demise of cigarette sponsorship hit him very hard as they were his normal option. Putting Smith in Elvstroms league is pretty optimistic to say the least. I think even he would be embarrassed. |
Posted By: Bumble
Date Posted: 07 Dec 05 at 3:14pm
|
I met him a couple of times and he stuck me as a confident sort of chap..... not the kind to feel embarrassed by being talked about, or considered Elvis' league...... the king lives!!!! |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 12 Dec 05 at 11:15pm
|
Could we agree on the pinnacle of dinghy racing? Laser Worlds? Rick ------------- |
Posted By: Black no sugar
Date Posted: 13 Dec 05 at 1:58am
|
Olympic games? Let's revive the thread!! ------------- http://www.lancingsc.org.uk/index.html - Lancing SC 
|
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 13 Dec 05 at 11:34am
|
I think the Laser Worlds is a harder challenge due to the size of the fleet.
Rick ------------- |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 13 Dec 05 at 1:09pm
| Of course we can't agree. But if you restrict the thing to the pinnacle of one design racing there's no way its not the Olympics. The pressure level is an order of magnitude greater than Laser Worlds. |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 13 Dec 05 at 2:07pm
|
Yeah; once every 4 years does up the anti ... ------------- |