SMODwatch from Racing Classes Review
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1259
Printed Date: 14 Aug 25 at 8:45pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: SMODwatch from Racing Classes Review
Posted By: JimC
Subject: SMODwatch from Racing Classes Review
Date Posted: 03 Dec 05 at 6:29pm
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I keep a spreadsheet with some of the Class Stats. Seeing what's happening as refers to numbers makes some of the spin put on it by the associations rather amusing. However this is practised by everyone, and some of the worst offenders are not the SMOD classes.
Here's my assessment of some of the two handers Where's my bonus, boss? ======================= RS200 - 105, averaging about 90 for the last few years. Suprise Revival =============== RS400 - 38 new boats this year, 6 last year Steady ====== 49er - 40ish last two years 29er - 50ish Dropping ======== RS800 down to 25ish from 50ish a few years ago Glad I'm not the Head of Sales ============================== L4000 - 8 new boats RS600 - 2 new boats B14 - 2 new boats Buzz - no new boats Tasar - 1 new boat, but first for a couple of years. Maybe the new rags will rescue it. Nailed to the Perch =================== 5000 - 1 since 1999 Boss - none since 1999 Iso - none since 2002 Laser 2 - none since 2002 Spice - none for a few years |
Replies:
Posted By: les5269
Date Posted: 03 Dec 05 at 6:34pm
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Interesting stats So what that says is most of the new boats your buying will only last about 10-15 years then you have to find something new? ------------- 49er 531 & 5000 5025 and a mirror(now gone to mirror heaven)! http://www.grafham.org/" rel="nofollow - Grafham water Sailing Club The greatest inland sailing in the country |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 03 Dec 05 at 7:12pm
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What are the figuers for the dev classes? Rick ------------- |
Posted By: nathan
Date Posted: 03 Dec 05 at 7:26pm
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Interesting reading. Would be good to know number of new 14s etc. Slight differences with the 29er and 49er in that those new boat numbers are worldwide and not just the UK. The RS', whilst selling some abroad, I would imagine 95% are domestically sold. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 03 Dec 05 at 7:40pm
| Development Class numbers are low by comparison as you'd expect. They've all been pretty steady the last few years as have most longer established classes. |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 04 Dec 05 at 12:42pm
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Jim, I'd be interested to see you sheet fully populated as per National Championship Attendances Table How about a NEW thread sharing your analysis showing ALL the classes that reported? Rick
------------- |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 04 Dec 05 at 5:27pm
Then I'd have to go back and get numbers for various classes I'm missing etc. You'll have noticed I included no singlehanders... |
Posted By: Shingle
Date Posted: 05 Dec 05 at 12:41pm
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RS600? ------------- Drink Feck girls! |
Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 05 Dec 05 at 1:19pm
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I saw in the classes review that there were 3762 new Lasers(all rigs) in the UK. Can this be true? It seems excessively high for UK only figures. ------------- Bonnie Lass Contender 1764 |
Posted By: damp_freddie
Date Posted: 05 Dec 05 at 11:39pm
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Phew, new thread for this one! Cheers Whatever happened to the MRX?? 38 new build RS400s -..oowaaah......a grand VAT, a grand rig, a grand sails and sheets, two grands hull, half a grands foils....one and a half grand margin a pop?? things are healthy at LDC, why spoil it with an RS5.....ok I'll stop there!! |
Posted By: Bumble
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 2:13am
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Thats some margins, Im in the wrong business. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 9:40am
Not as simple as that. How much do the premises cost, how much the marketing, how much reserve capacity do you need, all the rest of it. Judging by the number of times Topper have gone bust its not the most profitable of businesses. Restaurants work on far higher gross margins, but don't necessarily make money. The easiest way of making a million building raceboats continues to be to start with 5 million. |
Posted By: Bumble
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 9:49am
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fair point..... I was just a little suprised when it all weighs up just how profitable a mass produced dinghy might be. Thats got me thinking and, dispite toppers failures I still feel its a good turner.......its just extremely important you have a success..... like the RS400, and not a loser like the BOSS.(or dare I day RS500). Restaurants suffer risk cos marketing has limited effect, for boats its a directly proportional response....so best keep on the good side with Y's and Y'ing. Ive not even finished my day yet and Ive already lost 5million+ so it can't be that bad. |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 9:51am
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Pop along to the Merlin Rocket forum and there was a surprisingly even-handed thread on the subject recently. |
Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 12:44pm
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Do you not have any for singlehanders then? I still think 3700 new Lasers in the UK is very high???? ------------- Bonnie Lass Contender 1764 |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 1:01pm
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Agree. How many people buy a new (racing class) boat and don't then take it to the Nationals? The figure looks way high to me. |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 1:07pm
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The RS400 is not even close to being "mass produced" in the normal sense of the word. "Mass production" means turning out (minimally) 10,000s of units a year from an assembly line. The RS400 is probably "batch produced". Consult a textbook on "Operations Management" for endless discussions of the terms. |
Posted By: Bumble
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 2:48pm
| Yeah... hang on honey..... Im just pooping down to Tesco's to get us a couple of boil in the bag RS500's. |
Posted By: damp_freddie
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 9:03pm
For UK manufacturing with this labour intensity a GM of 25% is positively indecent. Marketing? Y&Y is hardly the sunday times supplement back cover is it? Sell ten RS400s a year- pay most of their marketing costs and the staff will do weekend event cover for no pay(?) - dare I suggest they are enthusiastic about it all and happy with this GM (guestimate- please no law suits) Factory? stack your moulds, build in 5's, oh little order for 600s or that wee keel boat they did, dig it out the store and get the same staff on it. Who seem to build to pretty high quality finish. |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 9:50pm
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Compared to what? |
Posted By: damp_freddie
Date Posted: 06 Dec 05 at 10:04pm
got a link for these? -25% - many would like to aspire to this but have to rely on consumables, installation and down stream servicing to keep going without conceding to China. vis a vi Rover granny mobiles...bye bye |
Posted By: Bumble
Date Posted: 07 Dec 05 at 3:18pm
Compared to a run of Yand Y'ing would be a good start, or those sinclair pedlos that did so well..... British industry, best in the world..... maybe its because everyone who can read is getting paid to watch this forum. |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 07 Dec 05 at 3:25pm
Seems to me this figure of 25% is a random number picked out of thin air backed by no facts what so ever. It's a free market - if you think it is so easy then go for it ... ------------- |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 07 Dec 05 at 3:57pm
http://www.merlinrocket.co.uk/forum/main/topic.asp?topic=1750&forum=main&comments=31&page=1&sort=5&order=1&search=mrx - http://www.merlinrocket.co.uk/forum/main/topic.asp?topic=175 0&forum=main&comments=31&page=1&sort=5&o rder=1&search=mrx I could point you at manufacturers making GP at 70-80%. Net profit much, much less. There is a huge difference, particularly if you are doing R&D. But 25%, even supermarkets make that on a lot of lines. |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 07 Dec 05 at 7:02pm
Exactly what is wrong with anyone making a profit? I want the people I buy stuff from to be profitable; that means they will still be in business if I need some after sales service. Rick ------------- |
Posted By: Ian99
Date Posted: 07 Dec 05 at 7:24pm
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Nothing is wrong with making money - I really don't think anyone working in sailing is making very much out of it. In making something like a boat or a rudder, an awful lot of man hours go into it - and the cost of the product is really quite low. Most factories producing small specialist items will be looking at around £60 per man hour for workshop time and only a few pounds of that will be profit. The majority will go on rent / tax / bills etc. Given that I can buy a complete rudder for about £400, that seems pretty good value to me once materials are taken into account - it would take me a lot more than 6 hours to build one myself! |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 07 Dec 05 at 8:27pm
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Provided the consumer has a choice, nothing at all. My point was the 25% gross profit is thin in most industries. As you said, we are arguing about made-up numbers here anyway. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 26 Nov 06 at 11:53pm
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SMODWatch 2006
Not nearly so much info this year... Again I only have some of the two handers What have you got to hide?? =========================== RS, not quoting new boats built *or* latest sail numbers for any of their racing classes! Has it been a *very* bad year boys? First green shoots? =================== B14 - 4 new boats from 2 last year Tasar - 5 from 1 last year Dying out? ========== L4000 - 0 new boats for second year running Sail Number inflation of the year ================================= Buzz, last year latest no 1100, this year they claim 1 sold and latest number 1200!! Still Nailed to the Perch =================== 5000 - 1 since 1999 Boss - none since 1999 Iso - none since 2002 Laser 2 - none since 2002 Spice - none for a few years Us, Keep Track? =============== 49er - sent last years numbers 29er - no sales figure recorded. Sail number figure is 150ish, but the sail number increase has always been higher than the quoted UK new boats. (120 and 35 last year. ISO - Latest sailnumber was quoted as 1208 in 2002, 1251 in 2003, 1220 in 2004 & 5 and 1207 this year! What's quite clear is that non-racing rotomoulds are where the money is. For all the strength to the youth classes none of the adult smod racing two handers seem to be doing that well, if you assume the lack of info from RS is embarassment rather than the inability to fill out a form. Could be either I'm sure. RS do quote a RS200 sailno number in the text which implies about 70 shipped, well down from the last few years 100ish, but that might not be at the same point in the calendar. |
Posted By: Chris Noble
Date Posted: 27 Nov 06 at 7:44am
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laser right at the beginning were not using sequential sail numbering, im pretty sure you dont have ot in relivance to number of new boats. I think youll also find the number of new 29ers this year to be very high, given not only the xx but second hand boats are scarce as rocking horse droppings given its selection as the ISAF youth worlds boat at the next worlds. ------------- http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=561 - Competitive Boat Insurance From Noble Marine FOR SALE: I14 2 Masts 2 poles 3 Booms, Foils Kites/Mains/Jibs too many to list. |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 27 Nov 06 at 9:33am
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Jim, You overlooked the winner of the "Where is my Bonus boss" category this year with 60 boats sold ... Musto Skiff Also there were loads of Fireflies built ... Rick ------------- |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 27 Nov 06 at 10:16am
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Yep, I left out single handers and long standing classes, just as last year. The Musto Skiff is shipping about the same numbers the RS600 did at a similar stage in its life cycle, which is obviously very respectable indeed.
So far none of the "new wave" UK based SMODs seem to have managed to be still healthy ten years from introduction (other than Laser 2000 and Pico!). Of the racers from 1985 to 1995 only the 49er (and maybe the B14) looks as if it will still be about in 10 years time. It will be interetsting to see what happens to classes like the 3000 that move to the more traditional class association led model rather the advertising backed SMOD route. |
Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 27 Nov 06 at 11:36am
Ah, but are you sure you can believe the Musto marketing guy, Rick? Don't forget, he's probably paid to make inflated claims to hype the class. |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 27 Nov 06 at 11:55am
All Musto Skiff owners are listed here (as best we can keep up with them) http://www.mustoskiff.com/sailors-database.htm - http://www.mustoskiff.com/sailors-database.htm Sail numbers are issued sequentially and there are no gaps. We have never inflated any sail numbers or build figures; we welcome any audit. Our numbers were audited by ISAF as part of the recent application which was approved when the class was approved for ISAF Recognized Status. (Note: ISAF require we use the Z not an S). Rick ------------- |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 27 Nov 06 at 12:20pm
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The Musto guys do seem to be very open with the numbers. I think they're as reliable as any and more so than most. You also have to give them credit for starting at 1. So few classes do these days.
There is a lot of inflation going on, and other naughties too. For instance Laser conflates Full rig, Radial and 4.7 sales into a single total, then lists the single total separately for each class! |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 27 Nov 06 at 12:25pm
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Thanks Jim, production actually started at 050. There were I think 7 prototypes/pre prods which were numbers 1 - 7. The first 50 are reserved in the same way as they are for the 29er & 49er so that the top 50 at the worlds can use their position as a single / double digit sail number. As we will have our first proper world championship in Garda in 2007 perhaps we'll start using these numbers ... Rick ------------- |
Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 27 Nov 06 at 1:26pm
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Lasers used squencial numbers in blocks, so for example the UK builders may have 188501-188800 and OZ builders may have 188001-188900. ------------- http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 - |
Posted By: Andrewst
Date Posted: 27 Nov 06 at 1:54pm
| I believe the 3000 had one new boat last year which was the prototype V3000 and 5 new boats this year so things are looking up. The medway maniac may correct me on these numbers. |
Posted By: tickel
Date Posted: 27 Nov 06 at 6:35pm
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A builder/ designer that I am friendly with has designed 2 succesfull single handers, One of them has been in small scale but steady production for 30 years and he still produced 2 boats last year. The other design has been very succesfull and has now been sold off. When working flat out he produced 3 boats a month, on his own! Small cheap workshop with low overheads. Now that made money. Incidentaly there were 5 new Tasars. ------------- tickel |
Posted By: NickA
Date Posted: 27 Nov 06 at 6:43pm
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Mark Giles of lightning 368 and sujpernova fame? Also note the Buzz that has gone to a new independant builder. ------------- Javelin 558 Contender 2574 |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 27 Nov 06 at 6:47pm
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Were they built in the UK or imported from Aus? Rick ------------- |
Posted By: tickel
Date Posted: 27 Nov 06 at 6:52pm
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Imported. ------------- tickel |
Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 27 Nov 06 at 9:58pm
Sorry Rick, that post of mine was definitely meant to be tongue in cheek; no aspersions to honesty intended. We need a little tongue-in-cheek/taking the p**s emoticon. |
Posted By: combat wombat
Date Posted: 27 Nov 06 at 10:33pm
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Remember B14's are also built in Australia, so the figures aren't
completely accurate. Not many new ones are sold (to date Ovingtons
have sold roughly 25 since 2000) but the 2nd hand market is good. And the reason so many Fireflies were sold is because they are back in style for team racing - so the Uni's are buying them in batches of 6 (which I did for my Uni before graduating). You won't see any of those boats at the Nationals however. ------------- B14 GBR 772 |
Posted By: Calum_Reid
Date Posted: 27 Nov 06 at 11:07pm
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duno about that edinburgh uni took there boats to the nationals ------------- 
|
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 27 Nov 06 at 11:24pm
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Spot on Andrew. And while five boats may sound small, the first production boat wasn't available till September and all five are going to active racers - in a small class that makes an impact. Our builder, Vandercraft, is in for the long haul and had a similar situation with the Phantoms when they started building them - just look where that class is now... |
Posted By: BBSCFaithfull
Date Posted: 28 Nov 06 at 9:11am
Please get them to take the 4k aswell! 
------------- Greatfully Sponsored By www.allgoodfun.com Int 14 GBR 1503!! |
Posted By: Chris Noble
Date Posted: 28 Nov 06 at 9:46am
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thats the thing if you look at the 3k 4k and 5k theres always been so much skope for improvement, it wouldnt take much for soeone to take on the construction of them at all, your always going to have loyal followers within a class. As far as i now the moulds for the 5k were given to the class association a long time ago anyway. And rumour is that the 4k isnt long for the laser production line. ------------- http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=561 - Competitive Boat Insurance From Noble Marine FOR SALE: I14 2 Masts 2 poles 3 Booms, Foils Kites/Mains/Jibs too many to list. |
Posted By: BBSCFaithfull
Date Posted: 28 Nov 06 at 9:54am
Well when you sell a boat that is so heavy etc and SO exspensive to buy new and maintain im not suprised they have not sold any! I remember hearing a 4k sailor telling me that the 4k used to be quicker than the 5k. But when laser found out they weighted it up.  ------------- Greatfully Sponsored By www.allgoodfun.com Int 14 GBR 1503!! |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 28 Nov 06 at 10:06am
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From a UK Laser 2 Class Association press release dated 1 March 2006: New Laser 2's available again in UK
Hi Ian, ***** ******* As novice sailors my Wife and I have had a fantastic time sailing the laser 2 but if we want some serious competition at opens and nationals (next year maybe) we are going to have to move on. Looking through the Y&Y class listings mag there aren't many boats that fit the bill. Our criteria:- We can't spend a fortune, we want symetric, we weigh 120 kg together, not youngters anymore so trapeze....It's a shame this boat is "on the perch", but there you go, things change. Fireball, 470 or go assymetric I suppose. |
Posted By: Pierre
Date Posted: 28 Nov 06 at 10:16am
| Furball or Osprey I would think ...... Marvellous. |
Posted By: laser4000
Date Posted: 28 Nov 06 at 12:28pm
Rubbish, there were at least 20 or so university or club owned boats at the nationals and doing well.I'll see if I can dig out the stats off a mate as they're not online. cheers |
Posted By: tickel
Date Posted: 28 Nov 06 at 12:36pm
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Did I hear a rumour that someone was taking on Byte from Topper ? ------------- tickel |
Posted By: combat wombat
Date Posted: 28 Nov 06 at 3:26pm
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People can really take things to heart on here! Don't worry mate, I'll stand heavily corrected if I am wrong. All I know is that there are loads of Uni's with Fireflies and not many went to the Nationals. The vast majority (including ours) stayed at Club. Our's were out of class anyway due to having cheap team racing sails rather than proper Firefly cut rags, plus weren't rigged for fleet racing. ------------- B14 GBR 772 |
Posted By: charlie1019
Date Posted: 28 Nov 06 at 4:18pm
| Ovi seem to now be dealing with the Byte CII |
Posted By: Hobbo
Date Posted: 28 Nov 06 at 4:23pm
I reckon Meatball at that weight, nice boats, quicker than L2, symmetric and good second hand market. ------------- Contender GBR 362 Osprey 1318 - IVplay SSC |
Posted By: NickA
Date Posted: 28 Nov 06 at 8:09pm
Not that one of them was an active racer before his V3000 arrived
------------- Javelin 558 Contender 2574 |
Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 29 Nov 06 at 3:30pm
my thoughts exactly |
Posted By: Offshoretiger
Date Posted: 29 Nov 06 at 8:42pm
Or a Hornet depending were you are. I think there more localised than Furballs but they rate about the same as Furballs so if there are more of them around were you are they may be a better option (yes, I know thats rubbish english before anyone starts) ------------- ...yesterday I couldnt spell enginner...now I are one!...... |
Posted By: laser4000
Date Posted: 01 Dec 06 at 7:18pm
Hey combat... I wasn't taking it to heart, I just get a bit annoyed when people post stuff thats factually in-accurate. you said "you wont see any of those boats at the nationals however"... well the sats are that there were 107 boats at this years firefly champs of which 27 were university or club owned boats. universities there included oxford, sheffield, birmingham and edinburgh, and they all had lots of fun particular on "sponsor a student night" when the workers of the class put their hands in their pockets to buy beers all night for the students...you should have been there!! Whilst I'm on this thread I'd like to post a couple of comments about the 4K as it seems to be getting some stick on here.. 1) Yes it is still being built by the laser centre 2) Yes it is still very actively raced - over 75 entries in the UK series events, over 40 boats at the nationals (and a rolling average of 53) - admitttedly not a massive club racing scene but thats because we all tend to do events.. 3) Yes you could build a lighter version and stick a carbon stick on it, but it was designed as a strict one design 10 years+ ago, and it still is.. 4015 (one of the first ones built) has been very competitive on the circuit for the last few years including 2nd at last years 4) There's been phenominal growth in Italy over the last couple of years, and whilst there might not have been many (any) sales in the last year in the UK there's been loads in Italy where the class has really taken off. 5) In the UK you can buy a good s/hand boat for 2K which will be quick enough to get you in the top 5 in the nationals. And with the boats getting so much cheaper then the average age of the class has plumetted - no longer the 30 somethings, its more like 26... 6) Weight equalisation rocks - you can get 60kg helms racing equally against 105Kg helms. Not many other boats you can do that in!! 6) the fleet is frirendly but really competitive - Peter Barton & Roz Allen (RS800 Eurocup Champ won the nationals), Wilson/Barker (49er squad sailors) won the Europeans, and it was only a couple of years ago that Penny Mountford and Helena Lucas were racing at our nats as an aside from their olympic stuff. last year Andy PF came 2nd at the endeavour!!! 2007 we're going to Sardinia for the Europeans and our nats are in Abersoch. 2 of the prettiest venues in the World to sail in!! Why not vist our http://www.laser4000.org.uk - new-look website and come and have a go if you think you are good enough!! |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 25 Nov 07 at 7:59pm
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SMODWatch 2007 As before my list is restricted to two handed racing classes.
What have you (still) got to hide?? =================================== RS, not quoting new boats built and in most cases not latest sail numbers either for most of their racing classes! There are latest sail numbers for 200, and 400. These imply about 80 200s last year and around 25 400s over the last two years, but latest sail numbers are never very reliable. New shoots looking a bit rocky =============================== B14 - back to 2 again (last year 4, from 2 the year before) Tasar - 3 from 5 last year (5 then 2) Resuscitation attempted? ======================== L4000 - 1 new boat, first for 3 years. Possible stirring in the coffin ================================ Iso - 1 boat this year,first since 2002 Still Nailed to the Perch =================== 5000 - 1 since 1999 Boss - none since 1999 Laser 2 - none since 2002 Spice - none for a few years Us, Keep Track? =============== 49er - no sales figure again. 29er - no sales figure recorded for second year running. Sail number figure is 150ish up, but the sail number increase has always been higher than the quoted UK new boats. (120 and 35 in 2005). ISO - Latest sailnumber was quoted as 1208 in 2002, 1251 in 2003, 1220 in 2004 & 5 and 1207 in 2006 and now 1197 this year! Non-racing rotomoulds are still where the numbers and presumably the money is. For all the strength to the youth classes only the 200 and maybe the 400 amongst the adult smod racing two handers seem to be doing OK. These boats aren't doing Champs. I wonder if clubs get to race them or what happens to them? For all the SMOD revolution was supposed to have damaged the traditional classes, I note that Fireball and 505 outsold every adult SMOD trapeze boat with the possible exception of the 49er... |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 25 Nov 07 at 8:16pm
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Er, I don't want to appear a fanboy here but haven't you overlooked the
RS500? I know it's not this forums favorite, but they did get over 30 at the nationals and they've only been available this past year. And they must have built a 100 plus by now. |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 25 Nov 07 at 9:38pm
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The Iso, to be fair, has been without anyone that's actually wanted to build them for a fair few years- when was the last time Topper put an ad in any mag for them? Promotion is now much more down to the volunteer class association. There's also an issue that the top guys in the class are convinced that the older ones are fastest (for the first race of the day at least)- one member of the technical committee sails a boat that has the rudder post lashed to the gunwhale, and if he won't buy a new one, who will? As far as "latest sail number" goes, I'd picked up (whilst sailing one) that the last known built White Formula built one was 1207, though 1206 has never been seen. The official sail number of the new one (which hasn't actually been bought by anyone) hadn't been decided lasy I hear; think they were going to plump for 1300. Remember, the first one was numbered 500 or 501.
The Boss and Spice have no builder, and no real class to speak of. But then, the Spice barely existed- as far as the Iso guys know, Topper sold approximately sixty of them. The 5000 is no longer listed as part of Laser's range. Tasar and B14 are different to the rest, as they aren't UK centric and never have been. |
Posted By: Ross
Date Posted: 25 Nov 07 at 10:09pm
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You can still buy 5K bits from laser. ------------- Ross If you can't carry it, don't sail it! |
Posted By: CurlyBen
Date Posted: 25 Nov 07 at 11:24pm
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I think Laser were trying to get rid of the 5000 moulds a while ago, they may not even exist anymore. As for bits, I heard a couple of weeks ago they're down to the last 5 spinnakers...
------------- RS800 GBR848 Weston SC |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 26 Nov 07 at 8:16am
RS have overlooked publishing anything in the way of useful data. |
Posted By: tickler
Date Posted: 26 Nov 07 at 9:09am
| Perhaps some boats never wear out. They may get a bit shabby and need a bit of a tidy but still stay stiff and fast. We are of course talking Tasar here, stick a new mylar rig on and a bit of Dulux and save yourself the cost of a new boat. A better judge of Tasar numbers would be to count the new rigs. |
Posted By: aardvark_issues
Date Posted: 26 Nov 07 at 9:14am
Hardly going to help class growth though is it. It will keep everyone involved happy, but theres no easy route in, which is most of the point of a smod. |
Posted By: Chew my RS
Date Posted: 26 Nov 07 at 9:21am
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Y&Y missed me (NS14) out! One sold last year and hopefully one, possibly two, more on the water for the sart of next season. ------------- http://www.sailns14.org - http://www.sailns14.org - The ultimate family raceboat now available in the UK |
Posted By: Chew my RS
Date Posted: 26 Nov 07 at 12:27pm
|
As best I can make out the three big manufacturers have introduced 24 new racing monohulls in the last 15 years (including the general purpose Laser 2000 and Pico). Eleven have now been discontinued by the original manufacturer, of which 5 have found new builders. This doesn't include the B14 which was also dropped by LDC, but was not originally a LDC boat. In that time there have also been four 9ers launched, one of which seems to have sunk without trace and another seems to be in the balance now that the Olympic women's high performance skiff is a no go. So it seems that nearly 50% of new SMODs don't last 15 years (most not even 10). I guess that is symptomatic of the dinghy industry becoming more professional and being prepared to dump "slightly profitable" Product A in favour of "more profitable" Procuct B. That, and the fact that many "Product A's" were rushed-to-market rubbish that no-one wanted when the initial hype died down. ------------- http://www.sailns14.org - http://www.sailns14.org - The ultimate family raceboat now available in the UK |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 26 Nov 07 at 12:38pm
| If you compare this to most industries, 50% of products still around after 15 years is a remarkably high figure. And yes, it's an "industry". Caveat emptor. |
Posted By: Chew my RS
Date Posted: 26 Nov 07 at 12:55pm
|
Its quite hard to think of an industry which one compare the dinghy industry to. Cars, for example, have a design life span of about 15 years (with a few mid year styling tweaks) before being replaced. However, people don't (generally) race cars, so being part of a fleet is of less importance (okay popular cars are easier to sell second hand, but no one buys a Focus just because there are lots of others).
------------- http://www.sailns14.org - http://www.sailns14.org - The ultimate family raceboat now available in the UK |
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 26 Nov 07 at 12:57pm
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Not quite sure how much I believe the figure of 25 new 505s in the UK. 70% of the nationals fleet replaced in one year? Hmmmmm. Looking at sail numbers at the nats:
So, 25 new boats in the UK, and only one shows up to the nats?... 25 new boats worldwide I could just about believe. 25 sail numbers issued to builders (but all said boats not necessarily built yet) I can easily believe.
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Posted By: tack'ho
Date Posted: 26 Nov 07 at 4:14pm
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No seems about it, boats have been ordered at least one built probably more haven't seen Dave or Chris for a while! ------------- I might be sailing it, but it's still sh**e! |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 26 Nov 07 at 7:06pm
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Definitely 4 built. A friend of mine took delivery of hers around a month ago and they had 3 more on the wagon to deliver! If only I were a few stone lighter  ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: combat wombat
Date Posted: 26 Nov 07 at 8:06pm
B14 was not "dropped" by LDC... we changed builders to a much superior yard. ------------- B14 GBR 772 |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 26 Nov 07 at 8:21pm
| Plus, it was first launched (though not in the UK, I'll admit) well over fifteen years ago- the B14 is a child of the eighties, not that you'd know to look at it. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 26 Nov 07 at 9:18pm
Mate, if you want to do a better job feel free. My little annual post I do on my terms and my rules, and they include doing it solely based on the incomplete data in the RCR. |
Posted By: Villan
Date Posted: 26 Nov 07 at 10:14pm
There could be any number of boats he left off GRF, so dont feel as if its a personal attack against you.
Only available for a year .. That may also be a good argument against your point. There will be no accurate data for him to go on, so it wont be included for that reason. I can think of many doublehanded, racing classes off the top of my head .. Many of the more succesful than the 500 ... RS800 420 470 Mirror Laser 2000 And from what I have seen Mr Windsurfing God, you dont even like your 500! If you dont like the way something is done ( Totally voluntarily I beleive ) then do it yourself. Stop bitching. Its getting boring now. (ps: RCR = "Racing Classes Register" I think ) (pps: Keep up the good work JimC ) ------------- Vareo - 149 "Secrets" http://www.TandyUKServers.co.uk" rel="nofollow - TandyUK Servers |
Posted By: Chew my RS
Date Posted: 27 Nov 07 at 9:22am
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DO the BMIF or anyone collect data on boat sales? Jim's analysis is really interesting, but by his own admission uses a limited source of info. I think a detailed analysis of the way the dinghy market has change over the last 40 years (and will continue to change) would be a fascinating Masters project. ------------- http://www.sailns14.org - http://www.sailns14.org - The ultimate family raceboat now available in the UK |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 27 Nov 07 at 9:49am
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"Do the BMIF or anyone collect data on boat sales?" - hard to get this data, it's almost always skued by manufacturers and boat-builders who will list orders taken but not delivered as "new boats built in 2xxx" to try and inflate their numbers. The RCR asks the class associatations but as this thread proves, they are sometimes a little optimistic or use a metric like build plates issued which isn't always accurate. ... Its also quite hard to tell what the BMIF "do" in terms of the dinghy scene, IMO they're focused more on the yacht and motorboat market as these are the bigger revenue and employment generators ------------- Feeling sorry for vegans since it became the latest fad to claim you are one |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 27 Nov 07 at 9:54am
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Its tricky to do a more valid data gathering exercise. BMIF, for instance, wouldn't be interested in homebuilds, and it does seem as if RS are now treating the data as being commercially sensitive, and they can always inflate sail numbers, for which there are endless precedents!
Then there are all the different ways sail numbers are allocated in internationally built classes, with some doing single sequences, in small or large batches to different countries, some doing separate numbers for each country, and some having a single registry. My RCR review spreadsheet goes back a few years, but the earlier years are very incomplete as I only typed in the classes that interested me. Maybe I'll go back through the loft and fill in some more some time. The assemblage of data is Y&Y copyright of course, so I also need to be restrained in what I do with it... |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 27 Nov 07 at 10:04am
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I think what most of us like about your data analysis from the review is that it saves us having to do any maths. As for it being incomplete/inaccurate, that is up to the classes. Maybe if the RS class associations filled in the forms, rather than RS (I'm assuming they don't, here, could be wrong) would we get better data? Maybe GRF can dig out the 500 stats so we can compare them with it's rivals? I'd like to know how it is comparing to the Fireball now, as at Whitefriars it has killed them. I'd be surprised if that has happened in too many other places, though. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 27 Nov 07 at 1:42pm
RS I believe run their class associations. It's been part of the key to their success. |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 27 Nov 07 at 4:28pm
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My impression, having talked with the chairman of an RS class association, is that members set the direction but RS provides the operation e.g. secretarial support, website etc. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 27 Nov 07 at 6:00pm
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Well coincidently I was at RS today picking up a couple of Fevas for our
club training programme next season so I did ask the inevitable. They've built about 120 500's and they are still going strong demand wise, that, despite the opinions of most on here. Interesting though, like me some of the staff there view this forum as a most strange collection of opinions, the loudest not always the being best informed, which is strange given that it should be a wise collection of more adult views like its counterpart run by Boards Magazine for windsurfers. That RS500 boat is a well priced traditional crewed but modern in design vehicle for club use and I really was surprised from the outset at the derision from the mindless here. O.K. I'm sufficiently well grounded not to be swayed by girlie college boy cherub puddle riders who have yet to experience the full gamut of what life on the ocean can chuck at you so make my own opinion, but listening to the sales teams stories of money saved over long periods for a purchasing decision then swayed by the disinformation on this site, is frankly wrong. A forum should provide a degree of factual advice and experience and if you don' t know then don't advise, or couch the views with anecdotal yet qualified experience. The views expressed in the lead up to my first forum experience here and initial ban after the referral to a certain medical help site were bang out of order. O.K. my response was probably equally out of the same disorder, but it was born from the same level of frustration. Wether you like what I write, or the way I write it I could give a damn, but the plain fact is, last year and the season gone recently I am a genuine entry level sailor, seeking these pages for advice. O.K. I might have a sense of humour that could best be described as warped and at worse downright outrageous, but that's all it is, a shield of sarcasm and a sword of irony to fend off the terminally dumb. And regretably they appear to be legion here at times. Whatever, I have a thick skin and an enthusiasm for sailing which will always overwhelm any disdain that might creep into any negative opinion formed about some of its other proponents, so inevitably like it or not y'all be hearing more from me - tough luck if you don't like it, just ignore the post or take me to task, if you do then great - its called free speech, it used to be legal but then that's another tale... |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 15 Nov 08 at 4:49pm
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SMODWatch 2008
============== As before, just looking at two handed adult racing classes. I shall have to consider reworking this if I post again next year because there seem to be fewer and fewer such classes about... I reckon that sales of two string and equivalent (B14) boats are less than half they were ten years ago. You would have thought, with the first generation of 29er sailors well into their 20s now, that the skills base capable of handling the extreme boats is so much bigger that the performance boats would be thriving, but no. How is it, for example, that there were 40 buyers for the rather (IMNSHO) then nasty and antiquated I14s in 1991, but in the last few years, when the class can, for the first time in something like 60 years, genuinely claim to be near state of the art, and are about twice the boat to sail, people only want 5 or 6 a year? It seems as if high performance boats are just going out of fashion. Its interesting that Laser and Topper have effectively dipped out of the racing class market. It begins to look to me almost as if sailing is going the way of the motor industry, where racing is a minority activity principly handled by specialist concerns, and the majority of vehicle purchasers are not interested in competition. This strikes me as a very big challenge for sailing clubs, especially the inland ones. Start a new topic if you want to discuss that folks, and lets try and avoid last year's sub ideal OT rants... Thanks to Nick Peters I have RS numbers for the last year even though they're not in the YY document. I note that not only did the RS association secs not send the new boats built numbers he gave them, they also sent YY different latest sailnumbers!! Rude health =========== RS 200 78, sail numbers suggest averaging 75 a year RS 500 89. Its very early in the lifecycle yet these, but RS must be pleased so far. Its perhaps marginal whether I should have included this class in the list and not the Feva, which is also doing very well. Picking Up Again ================ RS 400 36, sail numbers suggest they had a bit of a blip in 06/07 and are recovering from that. RS 800 27, again the sail numbers suggest they only sold about a dozen in 06 and 07, so my thoughts that they were begining to look rocky were correct, but things seem to have improved. Still kicking ============= B14 - 5 last year from 2 Tasar - 4 up from 3 Back in the Emergency Ward ========================== L4000 - no boats again, 1 in last 4 years Still wriggling in the coffin ============================== Iso - 1 boat this year, 2 since 2002 Still Nailed to the Perch =================== Nah, I'm not going to list them, its too cruel:-) Us, Keep Track? =============== 49er - no sales figure again. 29er - no sales figure again. I particularly mistrust 29er/49er sail numbers which have never seemed to have a big relationship with boats sold in the UK. No report at all for the 59er. The customers just didn't come. This is a shame, because its a boat I thought would have done well. That proves what *my* opinions are worth! As for the 29erXX, I'm beginning to wonder if they've actually sold any at all.. |
Posted By: Chris Turner
Date Posted: 15 Nov 08 at 5:50pm
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29er 128 49er 23 XX 32 rigs sold Sail numbers relate to International sails as they are International classes, numbers applied to and supplied from ISAF. None of which are single manufactured one designs (SMODS) in fact there are three licensed builders of the 49er and seven builders of the 29er and XX. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 15 Nov 08 at 6:33pm
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In that case the published sail numbers suggest that 128 of 129 worldwide 29ers were sold in the UK, and 23 of 25 worldwide 49ers. They're by no means the only classes for which the data is problematic, and you mustn't take this survey very seriously.
As for SMOD or not, I think for most of us if a class isn't measured and is controlled by a manufacturer or consortium of manufacturers it counts as a SMOD. The class on the list whih could probably object most to that categorisation, if is indeed objectionable at all (its usually used as a sales point) is the B14 where I believe you can pick your own supplier of sails and they have to measure rather than meet specification. AIUI the 49er and 29er were developed by (different) consortia of manufacturers. To me at least, a non Single Manufacturer one design is a class like the Enterprise or Tornado, where rights are held by the Class Association and the various components must be constructed to fall within a range of measurements which are intended to provide "room for error" in construction rather than differing shape, and there is normally much more freedom on things like fitting layout, choice of sailmaker and so on. However the boats are all intended to be the same basic shape, and the same person gets the designer's royalty. A restricted or development class is one where the rules are framed to deliberately enourage variation in design, and the person responsible for the shape of the individual boat is entitled to the design royalty. Naturally every single shade of gray in between exists, one design hulls with development rule sails, one design rigs with development hulls, and I can think of one class at least which, if my memory serves me right, permits very open development of rigs with single manufacturer hulls! |
Posted By: KennyR
Date Posted: 15 Nov 08 at 6:55pm
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I know locally the Tasar is in fine form, but two of
those new boats that are in there and they are actually the same boat [I think this year if not last]. One badly made hull hull failed and was replaced by a new one. It happens to all classes, but when there are only a few hulls......it distorts the figures some. I think the figures are telling and cannot be ignored, and this pulls across several threads here recently. Much is made of ISAF and how bad and conservative they are, but when you see, in the UK [possibly the most design saturated market in the world] that the Solos sell over a 100, the RS200 over 70 and wayfarers over 60 boats a year, and that the bulk of boats are not flat out b*lls to the wall, twin wire machines we hear all the noise from. They are just the opposite and we must recognise that the market speaks volumes [queue silent majority cliches]. The plain fact is more people value the 'brain' side of sailing, than the 'brawn' side and that, like buying cars, everybody with the cash to splash, likes a bit of choice [RS200 excepted of course]. The result is if they value being beaten by a 'better' sailor [qualified I accept] than a just a younger, fitter one - so be it. Just because these guys with the cash do not post virulently here does not mean anything. JimC - you are doing fantastic work - keep it up |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 15 Nov 08 at 8:08pm
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Kenny, thanks for the kind words...
One thing to remember is that whilst numbers can tell us what people are doing they can't tell us why. Maybe all those Solo buyers are the hundreds of Fireball and 505 sailors from the 60s and 70s, splashing out on a new boat every year because they know there's no point in saving up cash that will only get used up in care home bills in another few years, whereas the grandchildren who might like to buy Musto Skiffs or Foiling Moths are desperately saving up for mortgages... And then when I was young we teenagers normally had older boats than the sailors of our parent's generation, but these days it seems to be the reverse, and it seems to be considered that the kids should have the latest and bestest kit. You can maybe see that in boat sales... If this is the case it seems to me that it may have its downsides... As I have got older and earned better money I've been able, by and large, to have nicer and newer boats. It must come as quite a shock to have to move from having decent newish boats to having ratty old ones when you have to pay for them yourself, and I can imagine people giving up sailing for a few years instead... |
Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 15 Nov 08 at 8:11pm
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I wish. ------------- 600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it. Also International 14, 1318 |
Posted By: no limits
Date Posted: 15 Nov 08 at 9:00pm
yeh i wish i saved up for 2 years for my first boat laser 113966 now hopefully buying a brand new laser sometime soon  yes my parents support me but not in terms of boats or kit im 16 and having being sailing for a few years and that is just how it has always been ------------- |
Posted By: Ian29937
Date Posted: 15 Nov 08 at 9:59pm
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There is of course another scenario where demand exceeds supply. I Think this was the period when RS were having a particularly torrid time with a manufacturing move to Brasil. And for the 800 .. wasn't there a holding period when the new deck layout was in development and a lot of people had to hold off purchases whilst the trials played out..... Ian |
Posted By: tickler
Date Posted: 15 Nov 08 at 10:08pm
| New cars are sold and after a number of years use are scrapped (exept in a few rare cases) New boats are sold and last much longer, our Tasar is over 30 years old and still racing against newer boats. Does this mean that the "stock" of boats is always expanding? Perhaps only the ultra competitive or wealthy amongst us feel the need to buy new boats and the number of new hulls, at least, will slowly dwindle. |
Posted By: Skiffybob
Date Posted: 16 Nov 08 at 1:22pm
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I think perhaps there is some truth in that. Generally overall, I think that materials, and manufacturing techniques have improved to the point where boats do stay competitive for longer. I remember in my yoof (many moons ago), by the time most O.D.'s were about 3 or 4 seasons old, they were starting to show stress cracks and de-lamiation problems, where they were bending under the rig load or just generally becoming un-glued from pounding in waves. Today these are pretty rare occurrances. |
Posted By: m_liddell
Date Posted: 18 Nov 08 at 12:41pm
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As soon as a good second hand market appears, manufacturers don't sell many new boats and introduce a new class to make more £s.The wealthy and keen racers hop from class to class keeping up with the latest and greatest which helps kill previously popular classes also causing no new boat sales.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 14 Nov 09 at 12:44pm
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SMODWatch 2009
============== As before, just looking at two handed adult racing classes. I shall have to consider reworking this if I post again next year because there seem to be fewer and fewer such classes about... Trends I observed in last year's post seem to have continued... In particular its striking and I think worrying how much dinghy sailing is tending to become a youth sport. Rude health =========== RS 500 82. I'm not sure whether this really counts as an adult class though. Not a good year ================ Well, it hasn't been a good year for lots of people, so I don't think we can read too much into this! RS 200 36, previously averaging 75 a year RS 400 7, whilst the caveats apply, maybe last year's recovery was just a blip and the class is past its peak. RS 800 10, similar thoughts to RS400 Still kicking ============= B14 - 4 (last year 5) Tasar - allegedly 8, but the quoted last sail number is the same as last year's! Still Nailed to the Perch =================== Nah, I'm not going to list them, its too cruel, but basically all the others I've listed in the past:-) Us, Keep Track? =============== 49er - no sales figure again. 29er - no sales figure again. The boat nobody wanted ====================== 29erXX - for all the fuss, proposals to put it in the Olmpics etc it sure looks as if the only people who seem to sail one are those who are loaned/given rigs for a 29er. It would be crazy of ISAF to put this class in the games. Its interesting to note that after years of everything they touch turning to gold the last two Bethwaite classes have been flops. I guess no-one can get it right all the time... Most Optimistic Writeup Claim of the year ========================================= ISO - "this growing fleet". I happen to know that in the last two years we've cut up for the skip at my club as many ISOs as have been sold in the UK. Trading standards anyone? |
Posted By: mike10626
Date Posted: 14 Nov 09 at 1:50pm
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Judging by who turned up at the Inlands and the Nationals I would count it as an adult class. At least two thirds of the sailors were not Youths. I imagine that trend will continue as most of the serious Youth racers are sucked into the 29er. It is interesting how the 400 has seen a resurgence of numbers at their events without many new boats being sold. Similarly the 200 was having no sign of a bad year on the water. Mike
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Posted By: Mikey 14778
Date Posted: 14 Nov 09 at 2:03pm
Interesting stuff Jim.
Why restrict yourself to SMODs though ? I'm pretty sure the Fireball sales figures will blow most of the SMOD stuff into the long grass. And as we're all sailing Winders in this country, it's a SMOD in all but name anyway. There must be others too, where do the Flying Fred, the Miracle and the 505 fit in ? ------------- http://www.fireballsailing.org.uk/register/boat_info.php?sail_no=14778 - Fireball 14778 - 'Cruel and Unusual' http://www.draycotewater.co.uk - Draycote Water, fantastic ! |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 14 Nov 09 at 2:33pm
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Jim; you've missed the MPS off your analysis ... another good steady year ....can I say that here? ------------- |
