So Class Racing is clearly in serious decline, but
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Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12565
Printed Date: 19 Aug 25 at 7:17am
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Topic: So Class Racing is clearly in serious decline, but
Posted By: iGRF
Subject: So Class Racing is clearly in serious decline, but
Date Posted: 05 Nov 16 at 11:54am
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Is handicap racing filling the gap?
From the the Regional Events thread and the post concerning the massive fall off in attendance according to the Y&Y tables. This comes from a spreadsheet totalling all attendances, averaging them since 2000 and comparing this year with the mean and the peak which showes a 25% drop from the peak in 2011 and a 17% drop from the average attendance at these events which are largely class nationals. Clearly something has happened since 2011 when the numbers peaked at 7496, the average for the period was 6800+ and this year was 5653 the lowest since 2000. Why is it, what happened after 2011? Is it a general decline, no way we can know that since there doesn't appear to be any figures published for say handicap events or returns, is handicap racing taking over or is it also in decline, serious decline 25% in 5 yrs something a governing body should be concerned about particularly one that is meddling in that period. What do we think is going on, obviously National Attendances are down, but are Handicap events up? Are there more returns going in? Is it a shift or part of a general decline? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Replies:
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 05 Nov 16 at 1:54pm
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What happened after 2011 is most of us got 5 years older.... A lot of things have ups and downs without any real solid cause. Clubs around here still have a good level of support from kids as well as adults. Unless you are running for RYA president or something, why worry about national averages and all that, just do what you can for your club(s) and your classes. If everyone looks after their own bit, the average will look after itself. |
Posted By: elzorillo
Date Posted: 05 Nov 16 at 2:37pm
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Too much of a spread in too many different classes maybe?? with the majority of them poorly attended. Some of the class racing on the open circuit is pretty poor.. racing against the same half a dozen fellas time after time just isnt fun. I'd really like to buy a Solution but the lack of attendance at races has put me off. That's the main reason I got a Supernova, because it has a busy (and friendly) well attended open circuit. I just think the number of active sailors willing to travel regularly are spread too thin over too many different boats.
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Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 05 Nov 16 at 3:34pm
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Some of the class racing on the open circuit is pretty poor.. racing
against the same half a dozen fellas time after time just isnt fun .... Exactly like club racing then ..... ? But that really does mean the same guys every week .. and at the same location. Not knocking it if that is what people enjoy but I suspect those of us who travel most do so because we enjoy getting out and racing with a bit more variety. IMO many CA's run too many 'pure'opens for political membership reasons when they should really run far fewer. It is not dilution with lots of classes that is the problem - it is perhaps unhelpful dilution with too many class events in some classes. But that is one for the traditonalists to ponder maybe ... The big handicap events don't seem to be suffering to any real degree and many of them reach the physical limits of what they can accept today and they seem to be still growing - perhaps people actually enjoy them more than 'pure' racing even when it is often implied it is 'second rate' ? Just a thought..... |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 05 Nov 16 at 5:31pm
| When my new club was two clubs (Leigh Sailing Club and Lowton Sailing Club) and I was sailing there in the '60s there were, IIRC, nine different classes raced on Pennington Flash. Leigh SC had Ents, Merlins, GPs, OKs and Herons, Lowton raced 505s, GPs, Graduates and Solos and both shared the water with Manchester Uni sailing society who raced Fireflys. I think both clubs had a handicap fleet too (at least I remember at least one IC racing at Lowton but maybe they were the 10th class at the time). The combined club now has mainly handicap racing with only a Solo fleet getting separate starts and results on a Sunday. |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 05 Nov 16 at 6:42pm
| Less people are dinghy racing ... bikes are cheaper, easier to slot in to life, less weather dependent, more sociable and don't require all the duties and other b**locks associated with being a member of a typical dinghy racing club , it really is very simple. |
Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 05 Nov 16 at 6:48pm
| the manufacturers that rather than help their existing boats just bring out a new design. smaller fleets being spread over more classes makes it less appea!ing |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 05 Nov 16 at 7:14pm
| But there are way fewer active classes out there now than there were in the glory days of the 60s and 70s. Don't forget back then there were dozens if not hundreds of small builders, and they all liked the idea of having their own one design classes just as much as RS do... |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 05 Nov 16 at 7:31pm
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Well if I were at RS I'd be worried since they rely more on class activity than handicap and with all their main classes down, the 800,700,600,500,400,even the 200 and only the Tera Feva and Aero's up which I wouldn't bet were as profitable boats as their more expensive models. The Aero is a runaway success and doing well for exports etc but is it making up for the downturn in the other classes, I have no idea, but nobody would want a previously successful multi product company to be single model reliant.
So why does it matter someone asked, well it matters as it does in lots of the other sports, if sales volumes drop then prices have to increase. Jim is right about the fewer active classes, but wether that is fact or just they don't bother to tell Y&Y what they're up to, again I've no idea, perhaps he can elaborate as to the numbers of handicap returns are they up or down since 2011? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 05 Nov 16 at 7:37pm
| The stats would be meaningless ... it would all depend on the numbers of clubs who actively return data |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 05 Nov 16 at 8:58pm
But is there much point in comparing with 45 years ago? Sailing had mass appeal in the early 70s, it's now a bit of a niche, we had better get used to it. The Daily Mirror is not going to flogging kit boats to its readers in their 10,000s. The world has moved on. |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 05 Nov 16 at 9:16pm
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If the comparison with 45 years ago may bring up relevant information, surely the comparison is worth it. The comparison may show that sailing can still grow even when there are as many classes as there are today, for example. You're right that we have to get used to the sport being smaller. Some people are choosing to panic and are looking for a cure that could be worse than the disease. Yes, the sporting world has moved on. Unfortunately, many of those who would like to think they are influential in sailing seem to be only looking at the hype is going, rather than where the live bodies are going. The hype is going to so-called extreme sports but the bodies seem to be going the other way, like towards road cycling as others have noted.
------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 05 Nov 16 at 9:55pm
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How many of the sailors are moving out of "national" classes into the local classes, which often seem to be doing quite well? From the small classes like the Axe One Design and Fowey Rivers class through the medium-size ones like BOD up to the mega-classes like the Salcombe Yawl and Sea View One Design, lots of them seem to be reporting strong growth. I haven't had a chance to really look at the numbers and can't work out long term trends until I buy a replacement copy of an old book that listed the numbers in many of the local classes, but the SVOD has gone from 100 to 200 boats since 1981, a period in which dinghy sailing has declined. The two small classes mentioned have gone from one active boat to 7-20 or so; Sprites and others seem to be similar. Obviously the sailors of the 1700 or so boats that stopped doing nationals are not all getting into local classes, but surely we can also learn from the classes that are growing. ------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 05 Nov 16 at 10:35pm
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Oh, and one thing that seems clear is that the people who told us that moving to hyper-performance boats would revitalise the sport were talking complete codswallop. There has never been a greater increase in speed at the top end, and there has probably never been a greater loss of fleet numbers overall. ------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 05 Nov 16 at 11:00pm
I'm not sure you should read too much into the SVOD figures. Sea View is a bijou little village on the IoW where rich folks spend their summers. Most of the SVODs are only launched for a few weeks. They are clinker built, with a pretty, but small and unsophisticated rig. There is great racing with plenty of depth of quality. I suspect that the growth has much to do with the production capacity of the little wooden boat builder that makes them. They might not be able to do many more than 4 a year with there other work too.
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 05 Nov 16 at 11:30pm
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 05 Nov 16 at 11:42pm
| Well, fast boats are invariably harder to sail than slow ones, (all else being equal) but fast boats have the glamour...... |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 05 Nov 16 at 11:46pm
| I suspect the current political,economic situation is having a small but persistent effect. Insecurity, fear and uncertainty rather dampens the need for expensive excitment. |
Posted By: patj
Date Posted: 06 Nov 16 at 7:58am
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Are open meetings offering enough interest to attract people? Are the courses interesting?
If all that is available is sausage-triangle sailing round three laid marks, why travel miles just to do the same thing in a different place? Club mark courses are usually far more interesting with the added challenge of finding them and coping with the tide/current at that point. Maybe that's one of the factors accounting for the popularity of sailing at Salcombe where a race is a major tour of the estuary. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 06 Nov 16 at 9:09am
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I've heard rumours of life beyond the English Channel.... Anyone got any idea what's happening over there? |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 06 Nov 16 at 10:01am
| Don't get carried away RS, my chart has "here be dragons" printed on the bits beyond Blighty..... |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 06 Nov 16 at 9:04pm
This. At any given event there are usually only three or four boats with much chance of winning. If you want 50 others to turn up, you have to make it worth their while. Whether that be by putting on good apres sail or a novelty race doesn't matter, but expecting folk to pay £20+ to finish a leg behind and then face a long drive home is wishful thinking.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 06 Nov 16 at 9:49pm
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Agree about the need to cater for the majority, not just the top of the fleet, but what does a novelty race bring to the table?
And I'm not really into the apres sail thing when it means getting rat-a****d. Why drive two hours to do exactly what you can do at home, where, if you are that way inclined, you can nurse the hangover in the morning rather than try to go sailing. So what does make a good event? Outside the actual competition lack of hassle has to be high on the list I think. Reasonable lunches, easy car parking, good support on the beach, effcient results service, quick prizegiving (particularly difficult to get right because some competitors will be ready to go while others are still thinking about taking the mast down), what other things make the experience better? I think photos are a good thing to organise, be it a proper pro who can do prints you'd be pleased to put on the wall, or just an amateur taking snapshots that look OK on your phone or monitor at work... What else? |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 06 Nov 16 at 10:03pm
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19 Solos did the tour of the Salcombe estuary for Saturday's club race. Solo racing is also alive and well at the various Regional Championships and Nationals which regularly have turnouts between 50 and 100. So from where I am looking Class Racing is not is serious decline. However, it is worth looking at the demographic, the Solo class has a fair number of age 50+ sailors, who are probably trying to hold onto the type of sailing that we have enjoyed since we were teenagers in the dinghy sailing boom time of the 70's. It is also fair to say that no two races are the same at Salcombe, the variety of courses, wind strengths, wind direction, state of the tide, strength of the tide and direction, together with a sense of journey, make for an experience that is still interesting forty years on. Despite the enthusiasm by the proponents of handicap racing, the level of churn in handicap fleets seems much higher than one design fleets; possibly those who race one designs have a greater comraderie with the other competitors, discussing the racing and boat set ups etc. as well as more of a sense of belonging at their club, drinking together at the bar, or sharing a table at laying up suppers etc., plus national class events, with another level of social participation Sadly, it would appear that this is not the case everywhere, but I do note that the clubs with interesting waters, with a good local sailing demographic, such as Lymington, Warsash and Hayling seem to be bucking any declining trend. ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 06 Nov 16 at 11:41pm
I did a lot of regional open meetings and a good few nationals during my windsurf racing days (for the best part of 30 years) and can honestly say that my prospective finishing position was never a factor when I was deciding to go to an event. I race because I like racing more than I like winning. I believe the majority of sailboat racers have a similar ethic and race for the challenge and the fun of it and, like me, do their turns without being asked when they know they got it wrong. That's how it should be and the 'win at all costs' attitude is what is destroying dinghy racing (and many other sports).
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 07 Nov 16 at 8:00am
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Yes, sorry, I wrote in a hurry. Agree with all that JimC says. I'm not personally into studenty drinking game evenings, though clearly the 200 fleet are and it creates a clear demographic at their events (possibly to the detriment of attracting a wider range of sailors). The point I was trying to make was that if racing is too serious, or too focused on pleasing the minority who can actually win, the majority will eventually fade away. Can you really be bothered to travel 100 miles to see if you can get revenge on Bob and finish in 18th place this year. Will Bob even show up? Cycling sportives and fun runs are immensely popular at the moment. You have to commit a long time in advance, no turning up on the day after looking out the window. They offer a challenge on a number of levels - for those that want to win, those that want to set a PB, those that want to finish, or those that want to raise money for a cause. It is no coincidence that the best attended events at our club are Barts Bash and the family day. These are low key festivals of sailing, fun for those who haven't memorised the rule book.
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Posted By: Fatboi
Date Posted: 07 Nov 16 at 8:56am
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Too many classes diluting the racing pools and meaning that people swap classes to one they think they can do better in. Thinking back to 2010 and the Phantom was doing really strongly. Since then people have moved to D1's, RS100s, the Halo, etc. Plus the price of fuel and the price of boats going up each year doesnt help the average person buy a boat. a 200 with top/bottom covers, launching trolley and harken fittings now costs £9,631 RRP. I am pretty sure 5 years ago that they were about £3k cheaper! A feva or Tera has probably gone up by about £500 in that time... No wonder they are thriving!!
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 07 Nov 16 at 9:25am
Me neither
I sort of agree but see below
Back in the day when I was racing Raceboards, yes and yes (except other factors kept me away from two day events i.e. National series)
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 07 Nov 16 at 9:44am
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it's horses for courses - the purpose of studenty drinking games is to break down social barriers and get people involved, many of whom are often complete strangers or at best, passing acquaintances ... even if it's sipping a lime and lemonade it shouldn't matter .... if it's making people feel uncomfortable, or in anyway excluded, then frankly you ain't doing right. In an ideal world they don't take over, they simply sit in the backdrop to a good, convivial evening and can be used to up the tempo when a social gathering starts to flag. It's no coincidence that executive events and seminars often use very similar 'games' as ice breakers- especially if you're doomed with the post-lunch graveyard shift. It's all very well the same 8 blokes leading the charge to the curry house after 3 pints of ale, but not being rude.... you can do all that at home with your real mates anytime... no need to hitch up dinghies, travel the country and blow a night away pass for that. It comes across as a bit cliquey to the outsider.... frankly if all it is is sailing and a curry, then sailing clubs and back to your local is cheaper and ultimately more rewarding.
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 07 Nov 16 at 9:51am
I haven't attended any RS200/L4k events that are renowned for the apres-sail 'cos I've never owned either of those boats but, frankly, if I knew such shenanigans were on offer it would probably put me off attending. A quiet pint and a chat with some like minded individuals OTOH  But then WTF do I know, I don't even like curry........
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 07 Nov 16 at 10:21am
I thought you liked Spicy stuff?
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Posted By: JohnJack
Date Posted: 07 Nov 16 at 10:34am
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I think you have to separate Nationals attendance away from Open attendance. Their are a few classes that seem very Nationals Focused. Also for most Classes Nationals are a completely different beast from Opens, comparing a week of sailing (with possibly a part family holiday on the side) with a 2 or 1 day event just up the road is quite difficult. The Merlins Salcomb week looks an absolutely amazing event from an outsiders point of view (me, not sailing Merlins... bucket list!!) however it is something that completely bucks the trend, infact through the trend book out the tenth floor window. To have 120 entrants sign up in 2 hours, practically a year in advance and a waiting list that reads longer than allot of other classes Nationals attendance. All to sail on a crowded estuary with all the tide, stream and shiftiness that goes with it baffles me a little, esp when sailors I know will turn there nose up at anything that isn't a mile or two offshore in steady breeze. The feeling I get is the Merlin class are a little worried about Nationals attendance dropping a bit from reading a few of their articles. However the general attendance of Merlin Rocket Open Meetings seems to be good too. So what is Salcombe getting so right?, as well as the class. Considering Merlin Rockets are in their three thousand and something sail numbers and probably what is considered the more expensive of the "classic" classes. Salcomb's format is different with kind of round robyn racing, I have never quite got my head around it, maybe that has something to do with it, no long days out on the water just a morning or afternoon
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 07 Nov 16 at 10:57am
Actually my favourite food is Chilli Con Carne, I just don't like the flavour of Curry (and, in keeping with my boats of choice) I like my Chilli spicy but not too hot.......
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 07 Nov 16 at 10:57am
Might call the Blaze 'Vindaloo" though  I did consider, as I'll probably sail the Fire variant, "Ready..... Aim....." and "Ring Of..... " but have, I think, settled on "supersonic soap dish"
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 07 Nov 16 at 11:28am
Perhaps we need to consider what it is that class open meetings offer, and how we can strengthen those things. Here's a few starters, who can add to the list:
You can possibly tell that I'm a development boat sailor in that many of those things are particularly strong for development classes, but there again a much higher percentage of the active fleet tends to turn out at development class events... But its interesting that a substantial number of those things are off water rather than on water. At a two day event there's the evening, but at a single day event - does it mean that a reasonable lunch break is better than shoving people out on the water all day? |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 07 Nov 16 at 11:35am
Yep, a blown off day at a championship can be an enjoyable day to catch up on boat set ups, chat with other competitors etc. The second day it is probably best to find the go-karts or bowling alley. ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 07 Nov 16 at 11:36am
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I'd imagine the mindset is very different between a 1 and 2 day event..... 1 day event, get up early, get there, get on the water, get home for a family or normal social life in the evening.... max 2 hours each way perhaps, push it to three for rubbish traffic? I'd say then, the focus is on the sailing and back to back races are preferable - maybe a cheeky driving shandy or a coffee over the clappy-hands bit for the same bloke every time .... assuming you haven't bolted as soon as your covers are on and winged it through starbucks / Burger king. Two days is something different - then it's surely about the social side as much as the sailing.... or why bother???
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 07 Nov 16 at 12:34pm
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This overlaps a bit with National and Regional Circuits I tend to find that sailors from clubs with strong home fleets rarely travel, except to regional or national championships. Why bother to travel if you get good racing at home. The travelling element of open meeting circuits are mainly made up of sailors from "No fixed abode sailing club" aka RYA or race in club handicap fleets who are looking for a bit of class racing, or who dominate their club one design fleets and are looking for something more challenging. ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 07 Nov 16 at 1:50pm
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To me, fundamental is no more than two races back to back, I want a lunch break, then an evening social which these days doesn't have to involve climbing marquee poles, letting down the tent, racing up and over the marquee, jumping out of the club window and abseiling down onto the beach using the flag halyards, in appropriate use of powder fire extinguishers in showers, and or recreational chemistry.
But chatting in the bar, talking over race incidents 'talk me through that gybe again, long swim was it?' what should have been the outcome of race three but for... etc A beer a chat and a few laughs some healthy exercise on the water and a weekend to remember. Nice if you can get it, that Merlin event has it in spades whatever formula they use should be bottled and sold, hmm, come to think of it, it probably already is, it's called Doombar isn't it? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Fatboi
Date Posted: 07 Nov 16 at 2:41pm
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I would prefer 3 races back to back minimum. 4 x 40min races would be ideal. If I am travelling, I want to go racing!! A decent bar to prop up and talk rubbish about the day and sailing is a bonus.
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Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 07 Nov 16 at 6:15pm
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I'm just back from a open meeting for two classes and apart from the harshness of the gusts and shifts it was near a perfect format for me. Three good races Saturday, bonfire night at the club followed with visitors and members having a great night. Then an early start Sunday with two good races complete and done by just after midday. That may sound early, but it let the club get its own racing in, and for those of use who traveled substantial distances to be there the early finish was much appreciated. Away by 1:30pm and home at a decent time. From what I could see both classes had a great weekend so not sure class racing is dead yet.
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Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 07 Nov 16 at 10:53pm
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RS End of Seasons (112 entries across just 6 classes) suggests that perhaps the success of the winter handicaps is as much due to the lack of competing events (including, for many, the suspension of all racing during the winter at their home clubs (how odd) as it is to the other aspects of the event. |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 07 Nov 16 at 11:06pm
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Sarge; Yes, there are special factors involved with the SVOD - but the same sort of pattern can be seen in many other places, and not just in the UK. There seem to be many local classes that are holding firm or growing. There are some interesting questions to ponder when we look at such successes. RS400C, I'm not sure how far across the Channel you wanted to look but the figures I can find don't indicate such a big downturn here in Aus, where the economy remains strong. There is also no indications of an upturn or any real move to leading-edge classes. ------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 08 Nov 16 at 7:04am
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Just a single example I know, but our club results show a year on year increase with mid week sailing, but gradual decline on Sunday racing. I really wouldn't be surprised if extrapolating this on a wider scale proved an accurate assessment- it just fits with social patterns these days.
However I was surprised that another local club I would consider didn't have any formal mid week sailing... seems like something from the dark ages to me!!! |
Posted By: gbr940
Date Posted: 08 Nov 16 at 7:59am
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Maybe clubs are just getting better at club racing...perhaps? We have seen a massive shift to certain classes at our club and that's not just because certain boats are better but the racing has got a lot better...perhaps then you need 1 bad experience at an open and you wonder why you bother. Furthermore - it's been said already but more accurate free weather forecasting sites are clearly indicators of those whom travel...I certainly make a decision based on that. Monies tighter nowadays too so if the forecast looks "pants" then I won't go. Harsh but that's how it is. ------------- RS400 GBR1321 |
Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 08 Nov 16 at 9:13am
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Grf's
Its interesting your comments about the Phantom as over the last couple of years we have seen many boats that were hanging around sell, maybe some more realistic pricing helped. The for sale lists are well down on last year. Also we are seeing most in the south anyway return looking for good fleet racing and banter. Either selling the boats they had bought as an alternative or having one as part of there fleet. Having a good regional rep showing enthusiasm and offering encouragment has meant me attending an extra event this year along with a few others. ------------- Gordon Lossc |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 08 Nov 16 at 9:57am
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Maybe Club racing works better for the ageing demographic? As we get older we probably prioritise the social aspect; also a more thoughtful approach might steer us toward venues and classes which we can have build long term relationship. We also have to cut the grass, paint the house, walk the dog and all that stuff. There are definitely changes going on; if you analyse the big dinghy regatta results, you would note a complete drop off in people going away to attend holiday weeks; the numbers may hold up, but increasingly these are attended by locals. Merlin Week is an obvious exception, but may benefit from being at the bookend of the summer season, when there is a decent availability of accomodation. ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 08 Nov 16 at 10:25am
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The thing that struck me was the drop off increased as the recession allegedly ended, now I've had a theory about this over the years I've spent flogging mainly boys their toys in the sports I've been active in, windsurfing, snowsport, bikes etc and it almost trends opposite to the economy, even tracking back to the time I first noticed it in the post early nineties downturn, initally as the redundancies cut in we saw an upturn in the purchase of equipment, 'hell I'm redundant, I've got this cash i might as well have a new board and go enjoy my new found leisure time' was the mantra.
Then as the economy turned as they seemed to a bit quicker in the past, never having had such a serious decline as the one we've just experienced, white goods took over and the family budget switched due to pressures from swmbo, job moves, house purchases, all took their toll and our business would see a drop off until the next big thing occurred in product design or trend or the moving around stopped. But this go round, there has been such a fundamental shock to the system, there is so little money about, particularly amongst the demographic that engages in these types of activity, there's also an air of cynicism about new trends and designs, prices have also rocketed way beyond wages dues to the various currency swings with imbalances between the euro and dollar for raw material purchase forcing everything upwards but never back down on recovery. Travelling on this crowded island is also unpleasant, the main arteries are constantly choked particularly here in the south and east where I guess most of the activity used to happen, so in a way it is not surprising to see those Y&Y figures dropping away, it was just a bit weird that just this year gone, the change was so dramatic, it wasn't a bad year weather wise, which can also have a negative effect and in lots of other fields of activity things have been picking up. So hence the question about the returns, have they dropped off, or increased and how would we know if they had, our governing body isn't exactly the most transparent of operations in this regard, then I don't suppose for one moment they think it's any of our business after all. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Time Lord
Date Posted: 08 Nov 16 at 10:37am
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Davidyacht says 'Merlin Week is an obvious exception, but may benefit from being at the bookend of the summer season, when there is a decent availability of accomodation.'
His memory is failing him, Merlin week at Salcombe is in early July at the start of the summer season although accommodation prices have reached their summer peak. ------------- Merlin Rocket 3609 |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 08 Nov 16 at 11:02am
I can't influence the market rate ... but there appears to be a trend that owners of second homes claim them back in August unless a premium rate is forthcoming; I don't suggest that accomodation is cheap at the front end of July, but there is more availability. The other phenomena is that sailors have higher accomodation expectations; back in the day many of our regatta fleet ... notably the Enterprise fleet were happy to camp ... I believe this is less of a case today. ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: Dougaldog
Date Posted: 08 Nov 16 at 11:09am
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IGrf. You're not wrong on this one. All the work that I've done on the timeline of UK dinghy development suggests that the big changes happen just as you highlighted - as the country eases OUT of recession. This runs counter to the intuitive argument that would tend to suggest that a reasonably expensive sport would suffer as the economy starts to go down the tubes. You can identify a lot of potential causes and the answer is likely to be a mix of them all. There are a lot of social factors in there, technological changes and a hefty dollop of the 'x' factor - just have to work out what 'x' is. With regard to Salcombe Week - lots of things all add together to that the result is the classic 'greater than the sum of the parts'. It isn't just the sailing, it's also a chance to spectate as well! This gets a real entertainment boost by the fact that Salcombe shows no respect to the great and good. The sight of a multi-class champion helm 'testing the waters' is great entertainment. And as for the starts - with the assembled crowds looking down on the start line, it's more like the Christians v Lions than the start of a dinghy race. Away from the Merlins there are plenty of events that appear to buck the trend, from the family friendly events such as Abersoch Week to the success of the D-zero. This leaves the question unanswered though; what shape will the sport take in the future. It may be better, it may be worse but the one thing we can be sure of is...it will be different! D ------------- Dougal H |
Posted By: SUGmeister
Date Posted: 08 Nov 16 at 11:35am
I have wonderful memories of camping in a field overlooking the sea at East Prawle whilst sailing my Enterprise during Salcombe Week (probably some 35 years ago!) One day it had been a rough old sail and we got back to see our tent so beautifully located blown virtually inside out! We parked a car in front of the tent and tied it to that for the rest of the week. It was this storm that sank one of the Morning Clouds. Great times! (Obviously not for Ted Heath tho!) ------------- Simon SUGmeister I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me. |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 08 Nov 16 at 12:10pm
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Presumably you sailed at Ripon and were lived in a "'ole in road" ... you were lucky! ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: Dan Vincent
Date Posted: 08 Nov 16 at 3:57pm
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Warning – long posts with numbers… GRF, I assume you got your figures from the Yachts
and Yachting Nationals Attendance Database? I don’t recognise the raw numbers
you quote, but anyhoo…. I think you
are right to identify that 2016 is a low year compared to 2011, but I think
that the difference is less dramatic than it first appears, and that 2011 was
also a special year. Data Problems The headline figures
for numbers of boats suggests that in 2011, 5485 boats competed in Nationals,
while in 2016 the figure is only 3637, a reduction of approx 33%. However, closer examination of the table suggests
that 2011 had data for 171 classes while, only 108 classes have been populated. In 2011 the 63
classes missing from the 2016 dataset accounted for 1034 entrants. A quick scan of the missing classes for 2016
confirms that most of them have held championships, the figure just isn’t in
the table. If we just
compare the classes for which we have data for 2016 then the gap is still
significant but has reduced. 2011 had
4451 entrants, opposed to 2016 which remains on 3637. Difference = 18%. If on the
same basis you compare to earlier years, it appears that 2016 has a higher
entry than was achieved in 2000, 2001 and 2002 (3606). After that there was a steady increase until
2010 (4168) then a significant jump to 2011 – 4451. Was 2011 a Special Year? So was 2011 a
special year? Certainly quite a few
fleets achieved record entries: RS 200s (158
vs 96) - held at Weymouth, all the RS classes had a very strong performance as
it was a festival year and they held the 2011 RS Games. Contenders
(95 vs 35) – held at Weymouth, the Nationals was also the pre-Worlds and the
number included the foreign entries.
This year there was a 70 strong entry for the Contender Europeans held
at Highcliffe, but this is rightly not included in the data. Laser (81 vs
23) and Laser Radial (145 vs 65)– held at Weymouth, one year before the
Olympics and included many foreign competitors. Flying
Fifteens (92 vs 40) the Nationals in 2011 were also the pre-Worlds. To me the
most surprising differences, were in the Topper and Optimist, which do seem to
show a decline in numbers? They were the
top two classes in 2011 (448 and 324 entries) and are still the top two classes
in 2016 (263 and 173 entries), but they have lost 185 and 151 competitors
respectively. I can’t see anything obvious
to explain their decline, maybe increased competition from Teras and Fevas,
perhaps some youngsters are stepping up to 29ers a bit earlier? 10 Biggest Losers (-790 decrease) Optimist 448
to 163 (-185) Topper 324
to 151 (-151) Laser Radial 145
to 65 (-80) RS200 158
to 96 (-62) Contender
95 to 35 (-60) Laser 81
to 23 (-58) Flying Fifteen 92
to 40 (-52) Laser 4.7 71
to 19 (-52) RS400 84
to 36 (-48) Phantom 79
to 37 (-42) National 18 51
to 21 (-30) 10 Biggest Winners (+314) Supernova 34
to 110 (+76) RS Aero 0
to 70 (+70) D-Zero 0 to 40 (+40) RS Tera 86 to 124 (+38) 29er 57 to
74 (+19) Moth 56 to 73 (+17) Finn 42 to
59 (+11) A-class 7 to 24 (+17) Firefly 53 to 64 (+11) Topper 4.2 43 to 52 (+9) Final Thoughts 2016 is definitely lower than 2011, but once all the data is
in, it may not be as low as the current headline figures suggest. 2011 was the biggest year and the jump in numbers was due to
a combination of the London Olympic effect, the RS Games and some other big International
Championships inflating the Nationals figures. There is definitely decline in the two leading junior
classes, and Optimist and Topper class experts may be able to highlight
why, but maybe they have dropped back to
sensible numbers? |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 08 Nov 16 at 4:25pm
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Great, now wouldn't it be nice if we could access Handicap returns and run comparison numbers? The whole point for the thread is to try and garner that information, it's significant that it cannot be accessed. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 08 Nov 16 at 4:46pm
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There must be a conspiracy... ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 08 Nov 16 at 4:50pm
Yes but the Clinton vote rigging one needs sorting out first ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 08 Nov 16 at 5:37pm
| Freedom of information request anybody? |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 08 Nov 16 at 6:17pm
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Don't the numbers come out with how many returns each class got? I'm sure I've seen that on here? ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 08 Nov 16 at 6:30pm
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The number of races recorded in the calculation is on the published numbers, yes, and its good enough for evaluating relative popularity of classes and potential reliability of the numbers.
For year on year evaluations of whether the sport is growing or contracting, well I'm not at all sure its very useful. There have been so many changes in data gathering methods, processing and so on in recent years that I'd be very wary of drawing year on year conclusions about popularity. Data wasn't gathered with that in mind and I don't know its reliable and it would be shed loads of work to do something. in a few years time, if the hosting and recording settles down, then an analysis may be possible. Grief, I haven't even done such a calculation for my own club's racing, and that ought not be too hard in comparison. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 08 Nov 16 at 7:40pm
Yes it was just a copy paste Y&Y tables into excel, then total across the bottom, divide by to get average then compare 2016 with the average and the best year which was 2011. My totals ran something like. 2000:-6404 6673 6686 7045 7032 7150 7204 7128 7050 6945 7262 7496 6800 6607 6377 6077 ( 6871 (average)) 5653 -:2016 ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Dan Vincent
Date Posted: 08 Nov 16 at 7:53pm
| Ahhh, I think you may have included the year in your sum. Just subtract approx 2000 from your totals and you will be golden. |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 08 Nov 16 at 8:55pm
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Interesting information! Dougal, the chats that I have had with people who launch major classes confirm what you say about the number of factors involved. Those who are the best at creating popular classes makes it seem that they recognise the complexities involved, and they know they can't predict what will work. However, one gets the impression that they seem to be confident (with reason) that they know what WON'T work. The guys who launch successful classes also appear to respect, listen to and respond to the target market and heed the lessons of the past. The guys who fail at launching or promoting classes, on the other hand, seem to tend to have very simplistic views about what makes a class succeed or fail and haven't analysed earlier failures. They also seem to believe that they know what's best for sailors much better than the sailors do themselves! ------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 08 Nov 16 at 9:23pm
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Dan; IMHO you are completely right to bring in the issue of world titles inflating national attendance numbers because of boats from overseas racing. One other issue with the Y&Y table (and I'n not attacking the magazine or MM, who do a splendid job compared to other mags out there these days IMHO) is that they ignore the 60+ sailors who do each of the Laser Masters and Laser Radial Masters each year. If we are trying to measure activity in a class by using national title attendance then surely we should be counting all of those who do a nats, not just the young ones, and surely we should be responding to a class that is so big that it can (and sometimes needs to) split its fleet into two. If we don't count the Masters, the data is obviously inaccurate because it would show a huge drop the first year that the nationals fleet grew so large that there could be a separate Masters regatta, and to those who are interested it also makes some international comparisons invalid. EDIT - Aha, I found the spreadsheet where I had added the Masters to the total count of Lasers. I counted the people who did both regattas, found what proportion of Masters did both titles, and then reduced the overall numbers by 15% to account for that and to allow the calculation to be done more easily next time. The Laser Standard fleet from 2010 to 2015 now looks like this;
The Radials run:
The alternative would be to count Masters nationals separately, after subtracting those who did both titles. Both would be more accurate than not counting many of the sailors of the world's second and third most popular racing classes in a list that is intended to track participation. ------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 08 Nov 16 at 10:10pm
| Can anyone point to any other classes where the Masters Nationals seems to severely impact the turnout at the regular Nationals and a similar adjustment should be made? |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 08 Nov 16 at 10:13pm
| Other than the Finn, does any other classes have seperate masters nationals / internationals? |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 08 Nov 16 at 10:55pm
Solo's are all masters? 
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Posted By: Dougaldog
Date Posted: 09 Nov 16 at 11:39am
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Chris 249. I think the factor you're looking at there is the rise and rise of the 'marketing driven' change to dinghy development. I think the major producer of SMODs in the UK was quite clever in the way they chose a particular gap in the market. Having worked out how to do that, they then went on to follow marketing driven initiatives that go as far as targeting existing niche areas. But you are right - they're far better at working out what doesn't work and aiming to avoid it. There is a lot more in the way of detail here..... am working on it! With regard to the 'decline' argument I have my own stats, am polishing them up so that I can create an extra special Christmas card for iGRF! D
------------- Dougal H |
Posted By: Fatboi
Date Posted: 09 Nov 16 at 1:22pm
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A couple of ig factors for the Optimist drop. 1) It was in Largs, long way to go for those in the regatta fleets 2) This year it was decided to drop the nationals from the squad selector series, so lots of people didnt go as they didnt have to in order to get into squads and because of the long way to Largs! |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 09 Nov 16 at 7:22pm
For a classic/traditional/old fashioned (chose your language to suit your POV) open I would agree with all of those, and add ease of launching and access to what makes an event appealing. However, events like the Sheppey race and Lord Birkett appeal precisely because they offer something different from the norm and are as much a personal challenge as a fleet race.
|
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 09 Nov 16 at 8:06pm
I think you're right. These events people mostly take part for the enjoyment of being involved and don't worry too much about their overall placing. I think a lot of people have that attitude in other amateur sports. While people don't seem to enjoy coming in the bottom quarter of the field in an open, unless they are new to the class or veterans or something? |
Posted By: Gfinch
Date Posted: 09 Nov 16 at 8:49pm
I was there and agree completely, fantastic weekend and probably the best open this year despite the cold Sunday!! I did Norfolk Week for the first time this year, fantastic idea as we could actually have a holiday with some sailing added in! ------------- 3513, 3551 - National 12 136069 - Laser 32541 - Mirror 4501 - Laser 4000 |
Posted By: JohnJack
Date Posted: 11 Nov 16 at 9:09am
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Do too many, and too good, jockeys hurt class Opens (class events)? Over the last four years I have attended between 20 & 30 class open meetings up and down the country. Of all the events that have attended there must only have been 3 or 4 different winners overall all sail company/sailing business backed. I know my place is firmly in mid fleet, and know that challenging for the top places unless extreme luck or fortune intervenes is way beyond us (we have had a 2nd place a few years ago, all the local livestock were pinned to their enclosure fences the wind was that strong). Is this the case in all classes? Looking at our National Circuit last year, there are one or two events that counted where the Circuit Winner would have to have seriously have tried to have not finishedin the top 2.
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 11 Nov 16 at 9:41am
| The 'sponsored sailor' phenomena is not a new thing, back in the late '60s there was a GP called 'Leedinstor' (spelling if anybody remembers the boat) owned/sponsored by Leigh Dinghy Store (the originator of the line that became 1st Mark). The shop's then manager raced the boat with some success and the name was the only 'advertising' allowed (and that had to be somewhat disguised). I suspect some of the current crop of guys get the opportunity to devote more time to training and racing than others (and Leedinstor's skipper) who work for/own small/one man businesses and have to work 6/7 days a week most weeks just to turn a profit. |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 11 Nov 16 at 11:27am
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One of the joys of our sport is the ability to turn up and race against the best, so I am more than happy to race against the "professionals", gives you particular joy if you beat them. I have spent over 40 years racing, and at most prizegivings have wondered if the glassware goes down to 4th, 5th or 6th ... often one place above my result. Rather than swap around to easier fleets, I have found it more interesting to chase where the competition is or the hot fleets of the time, even if one could not clean up; imo this has been a lot of fun. I don't think that many of the sailmakers and boatbuilders that I know have more time than keen club racers do, they just know how to get the best out of their equipment and available time ... in any case many got into the business because of their enthusiasm for the sport. My experience is that most of the sailmakers and boatbuilders are friendly types who are happy to share their knowledge if you ask ... and in the Solos will be willing to turn up at your club and offer coaching and tuning advise ... filling a void in our sport imo. The phemomena that is harder to deal with is the professionals from the Olympic squad system, these guys have increasingly way more time than we do, and have coaching resources that we can only dream about; and the cards are seriously stacked against us when they turn up. However there are quite good bragging rights when you can say to your non-sailing mates that you were competing against Olympic medalists ... which most of the Merlin fleet can say. ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 11 Nov 16 at 11:55am
Yup :)
Yup and they are also mostly the smaller businesses I mention though there are exceptions. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 11 Nov 16 at 9:04pm
Bang on.
------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 11 Nov 16 at 9:35pm
The Finn had four sailors who did the Masters but not the regular UK nationals, which wasn't really significant given that we're dealing with 60+ boats. Where is gets interesting is doing international comparisons, which is probably of no interest to most here. I'm just updating the US nationals attendance table that Roger Jolly used to run. As you may recall, Roger ignored the Youth and Junior classes in his tally. When you add those classes in, it underlines the strength of the US habit of having big fleets of youth racing in 200kg 16 footers as a separate division to the Open fleet, and also of having significant numbers of adults race in 8ft pram dinghies as a separate division to the Youth. It's quite odd in some ways but in one place where the "kids in old peoples' boats" thing is done, the inland lakes, there seems to be a high proportion of people who stick in the sport. Maybe it actually works? PS - going through the Finn entry lists I came across a member of the sailing media who has been banging on for decades about the fact that people should sail multis and "extreme" boats and not ageing mainstream monos. It turns out that he owns a Finn and another mainstream mono - yet another case of someone shouting "do as I say, not as I do" to sailors. ------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 13 Nov 16 at 6:00pm
Personally I think international comparisons are quite valuable, as the UK market is perhaps distorted by SMOD manufacturers, the RYA and a mixed legacy of history. Not to mention an economy which is different for the younger generation compared to the recent past. If we see what's going on abroad, we might be able to separate some of this from the real changes in dinghy sailing. Or we might find somewhere nice to retire to.... |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 14 Nov 16 at 7:39am
Well then, since you said that....it looks like the US dinghy national title fleets have dropped around 9% since 2007-2012. That's a sample of 27 major classes but not taking into account the junior classes, or all of the youth and masters. Given the mood of doom and gloom around sailing in the USA, that seems quite healthy. I've still got to grind through Aussie numbers. They don't look too pretty, despite the strong economy, but that's just eyeballing stuff. I'll put the detailed US info up on the blog over the next couple of days. ------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 15 Nov 16 at 12:57pm
There was a rise in all junior classes in early 2000s with lottery funding and Volvo. The was a drop off in Cadet and Mirrors in the mid to late 2000's but outweighed by the rise in topper and oppies (even counting sailors rather than boats). Since 2010, Feva, Teras and the new topper rig somewhat cancel out. However, overall junior sailors peaked in 2010 -2011 with 1400+ sailors. 2015 was 1152 and 2016 1044. However, the upper age for RYA squads in topper reduced to 14 somewhere around 2010, from 15. So you'd expect to see less sailors in junior classes and more in youths. However, I can't see a corresponding increase in youth numbers for post 2010 (however it's impossible to distinguish youth laser and radial sailors from adults... maybe look at youth national results?) ... a lot of kids drop out at the junior to youth transition, so maybe they're just dropping out earlier now? |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 15 Nov 16 at 1:22pm
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I've not done the 200 nationals the last couple of years. It's not because the social, sailing or venue weren't to my liking, but simply we've been buying a house and getting married. We did Chichester Race week this year (FED) which had 60 200's.
I've not really done circuit events since 2010/2011 though. This is less of cost issue but more of a time issue. I can sail at my home club or cycle with minimum fuss. If there wasn't decent club racing though I'd probably still do circuit events. |