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Changing sails mid reggatta

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12525
Printed Date: 09 Aug 25 at 8:12am
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Topic: Changing sails mid reggatta
Posted By: ClubRacer
Subject: Changing sails mid reggatta
Date Posted: 20 Sep 16 at 6:13pm
On a short series (aka open event) im convinced i read somewhere about not changing sails without them becoming damaged 

Am i going insane?

I know when i did the Laser nationals some time ago i was given stickers to put on all gear to prevent changing it and sail stamped but cant find anything for other classes 



Replies:
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 20 Sep 16 at 7:17pm
Normal for the classes I've sailed. Stops switching from light wind to strong, or similar. Saves an arms race.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 20 Sep 16 at 7:29pm
is it a rule/class rule/SI?

cant find anything on it at all



Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 20 Sep 16 at 7:29pm
Normally it would be in Sailing Instructions rather than Class rules. Not every class feels it necessary, and for club SIs over a long series it would probably not such a good idea.


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 21 Sep 16 at 7:09am
At club level people may obtain new sails over a series or may have a 'heavy wind' sail and a good sail that they switch between (common in Lasers, I had an old sail for those windy days).

I don't see a problem as long as they are not changing to gain an advantage (i.e. changing to a Laser Radial in heavy winds and using a standard in light winds unless they are given 2 sets of results).

At open meeting and championships then the same set should be used regardless unless damaged and permission obtained to change them.


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: GML
Date Posted: 21 Sep 16 at 9:40am
Seems to be quite a bit of confusion here!

There is nothing in the Racing Rules of Sailing that prohibits a boat from using multiple sails during an event, even during a single race - don't forget the rules apply to offshore yacht racing as well as to dinghy racing.

Certain classes have class rules that limit the number of sails (and other items of equipment) that can be used during a single event - e.g. Laser class rule 7(c).

(Note that this Laser class rule applies to all "series of races" and as such it would appear to me to be a breach of this rule to use a different sail in strong winds, even in a club series, if your club is strict about the Laser class rules e.g. no replica equipment).

The limitation isn't always one sail - for example the Finn class rules permit the use of two sails during an event.

Otherwise, there will only be a limitation on the number of sails that can be used during an event if that limitation is explicitly set out in the Notice of Race or Sailing Instructions for the event (or in a document that is incorporated into the rules for that event through the NoR or SIs, such as Event Equipment Regulations). (And it should probably be set out in the NoR as it may be a material factor affecting a boat's decision to enter the event).

If none of the above applies then as far as I can see a boat would be entirely within their rights to use as many different sails as they wish during an event.


Posted By: GML
Date Posted: 21 Sep 16 at 12:03pm
PS And to my mind it isn't enough for the SIs to include a rule which says that substitution of damaged or lost equipment will not be allowed unless approved by the race committee. Such a rule does not require me to get the race committee's approval if I want to substitute a different sail for one that is undamaged and not lost.


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 21 Sep 16 at 1:00pm
Originally posted by GML

PS And to my mind it isn't enough for the SIs to include a rule which says that substitution of damaged or lost equipment will not be allowed unless approved by the race committee. Such a rule does not require me to get the race committee's approval if I want to substitute a different sail for one that is undamaged and not lost.

If you tried that an an event where the SI's said you must seek permission and you chose not to I would not be surprised to see you either protested or penalised in some way. It is usually a formality and they may wish to see the damaged sail.

As others have said it prevents people from having sails specific to conditions for classes where that is not the norm.

Club level sailing no problem at all, people get new or replacement sails all the time or choose to use a less good set when it is really windy.


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 12 Oct 16 at 6:19pm
I think that GML is suggesting is that the rule requiring RC approval to substitute a good for a damaged sail does not prevent a change from a good (light weather) sail for another good (say, heavy weather) sail. It's down to the wording of the SIs and, in the scenario suggested by GML any protest would be bound to fail unless the SI's specifically outlaw any change of sail. TBF the SI's/Class rules are usually worded such that any substitution is banned except for damaged or lost equipment, and such must be verified by the Race Committee.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 12 Oct 16 at 6:43pm
Much better to not go sailing and stay in the bar than canvass down to continue racing... Dinghy Logic.

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: GML
Date Posted: 12 Oct 16 at 11:04pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

I think that GML is suggesting is that the rule requiring RC approval to substitute a good for a damaged sail does not prevent a change from a good (light weather) sail for another good (say, heavy weather) sail. It's down to the wording of the SIs and, in the scenario suggested by GML any protest would be bound to fail unless the SI's specifically outlaw any change of sail. TBF the SI's/Class rules are usually worded such that any substitution is banned except for damaged or lost equipment, and such must be verified by the Race Committee.

Thank you Sam, that was exactly what I was trying to suggest, but clearly didn't make myself clear. 

Unfortunately, in my experience, SIs often include just the statement I quoted, and so don't actually ban the changing of one good sail for another. I appreciate that some class rules explicitly say that only one sail may be used in a series of races, but many others don't.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 12 Oct 16 at 11:09pm
Whilst I'm sure every possible stuff up in writing SIs has been made by someone sometime, I can't imagine its very common to have the "RC approval" paragraph in the SIs without there being a restriction on exchanging gear somewhere else in the Class rules/NOR/SI chain. After all, why would anyone bother putting it in unless they thought there were gear swapping restrictions?


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 12 Oct 16 at 11:43pm
The wording about 'damaged' comes from the Model SI, Appendix L to the RRS.

19.2 Substitution of damaged or lost equipment will not be allowed unless authorized by the [race committee] [protest committee]. Requests for substitution shall be made to the committee at the first reasonable opportunity.

I agree with Jim, L19.2 is designed on the assumption that there will be restrictions on sails and gear elsewhere, either in the NOR/SI or the Class Rules or wherever.

If the race committee put L19.2 in the SI without any other restriction elsewhere, then it should not work, and a good protest committee would consider that if the race committee wanted to restrict changing sails they should have damn well said so.

But you never know how a protest committee, thinking themselves aware of 'local practice' or whatever might go.  I'd be very wary of using legal terms of art like 'bound to fail' with respect to protests <g>.


Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 13 Oct 16 at 5:28am
Originally posted by iGRF

Much better to not go sailing and stay in the bar than canvass down to continue racing... Dinghy Logic.


Much better to start an arms race where everyone needs a quiver of alternate rigs and sails  that prices the sport into extinction. Sailboard Logic.


Posted By: patj
Date Posted: 13 Oct 16 at 7:15am
Some classes limit the number of sails you can have to prevent the arms race. This quote is from class rules for the Albacore.

Not more than 1 mainsail and 1 headsail shall be endorsed on the certificate when originally issued.
Sails may be added by endorsement as additions or replacements (but not both) at the rate of 1 mainsail and 2 headsails during each succeeding 12 month period commencing from the date of issue of the original/initial measurement certificate.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 13 Oct 16 at 10:04am
Originally posted by blueboy

Originally posted by iGRF

Much better to not go sailing and stay in the bar than canvass down to continue racing... Dinghy Logic.


Much better to start an arms race where everyone needs a quiver of alternate rigs and sails  that prices the sport into extinction. Sailboard Logic.

But windsurf racing is far from extinct, Raceboards have experienced a comeback in the last few years despite a new board and rig costing more than a L@ser.


Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 13 Oct 16 at 1:26pm
Can't speak for any other classes, but in the Fireball we're allowed to 'measure in' two suits of sails for a regatta, and one of everything else. Only that kit may be used unless permission is granted for a substitution and the old can be inspected before that approval is given.


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Nick
D-Zero 316



Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 13 Oct 16 at 10:19pm
Similar in the Musto Skiff too, but second sails are normally if it's dog off chains windy and people don't want their good ones thrashed

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Musto Skiff and Solo sailor


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 13 Oct 16 at 10:51pm
I always use my second best Spice sails for club racing but a new suit would cost more than I paid for the boat :)


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 14 Oct 16 at 12:19pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons


Originally posted by blueboy


Originally posted by iGRF

Much better to not go sailing and stay in the bar than canvass down to continue racing... Dinghy Logic.
Much better to start an arms race where everyone needs a quiver of alternate rigs and sails  that prices the sport into extinction. Sailboard Logic.

But windsurf racing is far from extinct, Raceboards have experienced a comeback in the last few years despite a new board and rig costing more than a L@ser.


There are lots of Racing Windsurf Classes, dinghy clubs however having driven them away fail to benefit from those numbers. Even if they were just included in the handicap system, which they were denied entry to because of the difference between planing and none planing, which yet managed to accommodate MPS's and Foiling Moths, it's a silly stupid attitude that emanates from the RYA and exists to this very day. One thing I have learned from these ten years sat down, there really isn't a lot of difference between what we racing board sailors do and we racing sailboat drivers, it's just a pity we can't come together for the greater good of sailing competition.


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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 14 Oct 16 at 2:39pm
 Thumbs Up


Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 15 Oct 16 at 6:47am
Originally posted by iGRF


There are lots of Racing Windsurf Classes


Actual active racing classes? Really? I'm aware of UKWA, LWA and Seavets. The first is a travelling circuit and the latter two inland, none of which appeals to me. My club, which has a good number of recreational windsurfers,  has made a number of attempts to revive board course racing which thrived at one time and there has been close to zero interest.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 15 Oct 16 at 9:42am
Over 140 sailors registered a result in this years UKWA Course racing 'Cup' series, all costal venues and a similar number attended their Inland series events. That's without including slalom and wave events. Sounds fairly heathy to me.

There is one club up here running a reasonably well attended evening series and the NWWA series soldiers on, the last bastion of the 7.5m class.

Unlike dinghies where I'd guess a majority (or at lease a significant minority) of sailors belong to clubs and race at least occasionally, windsurfers are more 'free spirited' and less interested in organised events.


Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 15 Oct 16 at 12:29pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Over 140 sailors registered a result in this years UKWA Course racing 'Cup' series, all costal venues and a similar number attended their Inland series events. That's without including slalom and wave events. Sounds fairly heathy to me.


I'm old enough to remember starting with several hundred other boards for the Round Hayling, every year for several years. That was one single event. So sorry, as far as racing is concerned, the sport is a pale shadow of what it used to be.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 15 Oct 16 at 12:43pm
Yes it is compared to the heyday (150+ on the line at Grafham for the Club Team Champs) but it's not a basket case just yet..... But I blame the decline on serious mismanagement in the '80s and allowing the manufacturers to rule the roost rather than the UKBSA/BWA/RYA to the detriment of the sailors


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 20 Oct 16 at 10:10am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Yes it is compared to the heyday (150+ on the line at Grafham for the Club Team Champs) but it's not a basket case just yet..... But I blame the decline on serious mismanagement in the '80s and allowing the manufacturers to rule the roost rather than the UKBSA/BWA/RYA to the detriment of the sailors
Were you sailing boards in the 80s?
From 1988 I was working near Hayling Island, lots of my mates were board sailors.
None of them wanted to be managed, they just drove their cars and kit to the beach after work and went sailing.
Most were not interested in racing, more about going out in more and more wind.
Many people had a board or two for fun, but raced dinghies or crewed on yachts for competition.
Southsea had its own club on the beach just for racing boards, it lasted a couple of decades?
It always was a minority of active boardpersons.
But many of its original members are now still racing dinghies or yachts, or doing other sailing such as yacht cruising.
Not every sport is about competitive racing.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 20 Oct 16 at 10:53am
I started racing Div 1 in around 1984/5 at club and regional level with the occasional National event. Windsurfing, for me (as an ex dinghy racer) was as much about racing as the other stuff (probably more TBH). I was a member, and later chairman, of (probably) the most successful 'Sailboard' racing club in the NW for around 25 years and was on the winning team at the UKBSA Club Team Championships three or four times. During that time we had a Raceboard World and several times National Champion and a couple of serious Olympic contenders. The decline in racing started when the powers that be changed the rules for Division 1 to exclude small board makers (boards had to be 'series production boards' officially to keep costs down but in practice the UK built  custom div 1 boards were cheaper than a new Mistral Superlight). The final nail in the coffin of inland club racing was the introduction and heavy promotion of Formula Windsurfing. FW boards and rigs are un-racable on a small inland pond (anything smaller than Rutland, Kielder, Grafham or Grimworth) and, initially at least, super physical with, typically, up to 12m sails. The average racer like me soldiered on with a gradually disintegrating Equipe 2 and stopped going to even the occasional National after trekking up to Ullswater and having racing cancelled when there was a 6 knot breeze because it wasn't enough for the FW boards.......

TBF, the mismanagement I mentioned was probably in the '90s rather than the '80s Wink


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 20 Oct 16 at 12:01pm
Oh and when they changed the existing Raceboard subdivisions from  7.5m and Unlimited to 9.5m and Unlimited instead of retaining the 7.5m sail (which we did in the NWWA) that finally put a complete close on my National Series ambitions as I couldn't justify £1500+ for a new 9.5m rig just to do a couple of events a year (that supposing I would have enjoyed sailing with a 9.5m sail which I doubt). The 7.5 allowed average (and smaller) sailors to enjoy tactical racing in 3kn+ and were good up to 20kn+. As the gear gets bigger the game gets more physical and favours the bigger stronger sailors over the lighter/older/younger/smaller but more tactical guys. IMHO there is an optimum sail size for Raceboards that doesn't require you to be super fit to pump around in the light stuff or hang on to when it blows........ and it's 7.5m2......


Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 20 Oct 16 at 1:59pm
The kids are hanging onto an 8.5 in the RS:X in up to 30 knots, and loving it. A real resurgence going on in that class.

14 year olds use 7.8 on the Techno 293. With modern materials I think they would all think 7.5 too small.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 20 Oct 16 at 3:06pm
Maybe they would but I'm talking about Raceboard sails not shortboard sails (which 95% of modern sails are, including the RSX ones). I use a Demon VG5 7.5, it's more powerful than most 'modern' 9m sails but weighs significantly less than my 5.8m Neil Pryde wave sail. I've just unrolled an old VG5 I have for sale, measured in 1992, and I'd bet I could still win races with it at club level.

The 'area' of a modern sail is a bit of a nonsense with a huge area of leech that does no more than flop about, it works at high speed on a short board by promoting twist but at lower speeds (as on a Raceboard) the sails don't generate the power of a proper raceboard design.

BTW, looking for a couple of bits of info before posting this I discover the UKWA now have a 7.8m class, really for Techno sailors but also suited to returning RB 7.5 sailors..... About time (don't say I didn't tell you.....)


Posted By: ChrisJ
Date Posted: 24 Oct 16 at 7:44pm
The 2000 class used to say "Only one suit per regatta". But once the class went passed around 10 years old or so it was realised that almost everyone had 2 sets.
They now allow you to change sails during the regatta, as it actually reduces the arms race!
People could now use their old sails (especially jibs) when it was windy, so keeping the good sails for lighter winds - so they lasted for longer before needing to be replaced.



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