Racing Rules: Class rules in handicap racing?

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Class rules in handicap racing?

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
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URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12458
Printed Date: 09 Aug 25 at 8:12am
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Topic: Class rules in handicap racing?

Posted By: Guests
Subject: Class rules in handicap racing?
Date Posted: 19 Jul 16 at 5:24pm

A theoretical question.

Under the racing rules of sailing, trapeze's are banned (I can't remember which rule number it is) and so any class that has trapezes must write into their class rules that they are allowed and that it contradicts that particular racing rule.
When an RS800 turns up to a handicap event, no one has a problem with them trapezing.

However, if a class were to write into it's class rules that rule 42 does not apply to the class and that free kinetics are allowed in all conditions, how would that sit with handicap racing.
Think 3 knots of wind and class A is happily rocking non stop all the way round the course gaining a sizeable advantage, whilst class B and C can't.

Is this a situation that could exist? How would people feel about it?
If people would be unhappy about it why are they not equally unhappy about trapezing as this gives a massive advantage in windier weather over longer courses. Those that hike will tire out, whilst those on trapezes just keep laying there maintaining maximum leverage.

Replies:

Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 19 Jul 16 at 5:37pm

In theory, with empirical handicaps like PYS the calculated handicap should reflect the improved performance from allowed kinetics in light conditions, just as it reflects the improved performance from the trapeze in trapeze conditions.

In practice I think class rules almost invariably specify that unlimited kinetics are only permitted if a given flag is flown, so the issue is moot. The people to ask would be those who mix boards and dinghies.

Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 19 Jul 16 at 6:03pm

Can you point us to the rule where trapezes are banned, please?

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686

Posted By: MartinG
Date Posted: 19 Jul 16 at 6:40pm

RRS 49 bans trapezes, but 86.1(c) allows class rules to override this.
In general, yardstick numbers take account of the use of trapezes, or any other class-specific equipment, but do not take account of any class-allowed kinetics, as they are generally only allowed in class races.

Martin

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49er 865
K6 159
RS800 1133 (sold)

Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 19 Jul 16 at 6:48pm

49.1 Competitors shall use no device designed to position their bodies outboard, other than hiking straps and stiffeners worn under the thighs.

Would be the one I think.

Rules that modify Rule 42 (ie switch it off) normally require the race committee to actively allow it with a flag signal

C.1.1 RULES

(1) RRS 42.3 is changed by adding: The Race Committee may signal in accordance with RRS Appendix P5 that pumping, rocking and ooching are permitted after the starting signal, except when the boat’s proper course is close-hauled or above. This changes rules 42.2(a), 42.2(b) and 42.2(c).

(2) The Finn Class recommends that race committees

apply Rule C.1.1 (1) in winds of 10 knots and above, measured at deck level on a race committee boat at the windward mark. See also A.7.2.

(3) In accordance with RRS 43.1(b), the maximum weight for a competitor’s clothing and equipment is increased from 8kg to 10kg.

So you wouldn't be able to abandon rule 42 in a handicap race, but you could have the heavier clothing allowance, as I read it.

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Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard"
Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch"
Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air"
Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile"

Posted By: GML
Date Posted: 19 Jul 16 at 9:29pm

I'm not aware of any rule that prevents the Race Committee for a handicap race displaying Oscar in accordance with RRS Appendix P5, thereby allowing boats of certain classes to pump, rock or ooch in accordance with their class rules, even if not many (any?) do.

Problem is that some sailors in such boats don't seem to know that they are not allowed to pump, rock or ooch when Oscar has not been displayed, even if the windspeed is above the level for their class Ermm

Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 19 Jul 16 at 9:44pm

Thank you. Next question, why? Wouldn't class rules (either way) cover this?

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686

Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 19 Jul 16 at 9:58pm

All very well these semantics, when half the handicap racers don't even respect basic port starboard if it doesn't suit them.

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website

Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 19 Jul 16 at 10:00pm

Originally posted by GML

...some sailors in such boats don't seem to know that they are not allowed to pump, rock or ooch when Oscar has not been displayed

An ignorance shared, IME by some sailors in a number of classes which have no Oscar rule.

Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 20 Jul 16 at 5:06pm

Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by GML

...some sailors in such boats don't seem to know that they are not allowed to pump, rock or ooch when Oscar has not been displayed

An ignorance shared, IME by some sailors in a number of classes which have no Oscar rule.

at what point does a 'roll tack' become illegal kinetics ????

Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 20 Jul 16 at 6:01pm

Originally posted by zippyRN

Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by GML

...some sailors in such boats don't seem to know that they are not allowed to pump, rock or ooch when Oscar has not been displayed

An ignorance shared, IME by some sailors in a number of classes which have no Oscar rule.

at what point does a 'roll tack' become illegal kinetics ????

42.3(b)

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Andy Mck

Posted By: GML
Date Posted: 20 Jul 16 at 7:19pm

Also 42.2(e)

For more guidance see: http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/R42intMay13-%5b15083%5d.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/R42intMay13-[15083].pdf

Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 20 Jul 16 at 10:07pm

Originally posted by andymck

Originally posted by zippyRN

Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by GML

...some sailors in such boats don't seem to know that they are not allowed to pump, rock or ooch when Oscar has not been displayed

An ignorance shared, IME by some sailors in a number of classes which have no Oscar rule.

at what point does a 'roll tack' become illegal kinetics ????

42.3(b)

In the Laser fleet, never.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686

Posted By: patj
Date Posted: 25 Jul 16 at 8:10am

For the recent combined CVRDA and classic Finn event, the SI (written by a Finn sailor) specifically included that Finn continuous pumping was not permitted. It made it clear to everyone, Finn or other class and by saying it in the SI any pumping would be more likely to be spotted. There were no problems anyway.

Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 25 Jul 16 at 12:15pm

Originally posted by Rupert

Originally posted by andymck

Originally posted by zippyRN

Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by GML

...some sailors in such boats don't seem to know that they are not allowed to pump, rock or ooch when Oscar has not been displayed

An ignorance shared, IME by some sailors in a number of classes which have no Oscar rule.

at what point does a 'roll tack' become illegal kinetics ????

42.3(b)

In the Laser fleet, never.

Same for some other fleets who I shall not name....

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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74

Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 25 Jul 16 at 7:04pm

Lasers appear to actually include it in their coaching sessions, though.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686

Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 25 Jul 16 at 10:31pm

Surely the RYA have a standard SI for Yardstick, which should cover class rules issues?

Can anyone point me to it?

Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 26 Jul 16 at 8:33am

Originally posted by Brass

Surely the RYA have a standard SI for Yardstick, which should cover class rules issues?

Can anyone point me to it?

I believe most classes that allow free pumping say it is only allowed above a certain wind strength and if a flag is flown. As this flag is unlikely to ever be used in a handicap race the PY will be based on boats sailing without breaching rule 42 (in theory).....

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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74

Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 26 Jul 16 at 9:18am

Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by Brass

Surely the RYA have a standard SI for Yardstick, which should cover class rules issues?

Can anyone point me to it?

Yes.

I'm interested in class rules issues in general, for example corrector weights, templateing, SMOD parts etc.

Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 08 Aug 16 at 2:49pm

LTSC specifically require any breach of class rules which enhances performance to be notifed to the race committee. I think this is directed mostly at weight equalisation classes.
The most frequently broken class rule is probably the requiremnt to be a member of the class association?

Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 08 Aug 16 at 3:37pm

Originally posted by Brass

Surely the RYA have a standard SI for Yardstick, which should cover class rules issues?

Can anyone point me to it?

There's not to my knowledge a standard SI for PY racing, and I'm not sure there's any especial need for one.

I did get an RYA opinion on Class rules and handicap racing, and the general thrust of it was that if a boat is altered to take it out of class rules, be it anything from lengthening the hull to using "replica" sails not permitted by those class rules then it ceases to be a member of the class. End of.

That has some implications.

The first that occurs to me is that as soon as it ceases to be a member of the xyz class presumably *none* of the class rules apply, and now I think of it does that have interesting implications as regards RRS49.1? I suppose readily worked round by inventing a set of class rules for "John Smith's Boat which is a Laser 4000 hull with Rooster Sails and the class rules are just like the Laser 4000 class rules with the bit about sails deleted", and does it say class rules must be written down?

The next is that the published handicap for the xyz class is not necessarily appropriate for the boat, and the club IMHO *must* be notified of precisely what the boat is so they can issue a handicap. If you claim a boat is a Wotsit 15 on your entry, and actually you know damn well it isn't then that's a serious matter.

I think from a PYAG/EHAG point of view it would be immensely important that if a boat isn't a Wotsit 15 in any respect then its clearly marked in the club return as not being a Wotsit 15 so it doesn't reduce the integrity of the calculations.

But the main thing is down to eligibility, and I think that's really down to the club and the NOR. I think the club can do what it likes as regards eligibility. On the one hand it seems to me very important that sailors maintain boats in classes simply so we have real classes for the returns. If there aren't sufficient genuine Wotsit 15s racing then there can be no published number for Wotsit 15s, and if there aren't sufficient genuine boats of any class then dinghy Portsmouth yardstick will end up following cruiser PYS into history. On the other hand I don't think genuine prototypes and one offs should be prohibited from racing.

Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 09 Aug 16 at 4:17am

Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Brass

Surely the RYA have a standard SI for Yardstick, which should cover class rules issues?

Can anyone point me to it?

There's not to my knowledge a standard SI for PY racing, and I'm not sure there's any especial need for one.

How do competitors (or for that matter, race officials) know, for example:

which version of PY are in use?
how corrected times will be computed: rounding up/down etc?
whether it's OK to sail with pictures of poultry on your sails or will the club pursue you to the ends of the earth with rule 69 to have you burnt as a witch?
how handicapping will be done for a boat that you and everyone else knows is a modified Wotsis 15?

I note that RYA goes to lengths to not refer anywhere to PY 'rules': they talk about PY 'Documentation', but PY is a handicap or rating system, it must have 'rules' (common english meaning), therefore those rules are class rules, and rules for the purposes of the RRS (Definitions: Rule, ( d )).

So the NOR/SI, somehow or other have to say that PY will apply, do they not?

I did get an RYA opinion on Class rules and handicap racing, and the general thrust of it was that if a boat is altered to take it out of class rules, be it anything from lengthening the hull to using "replica" sails not permitted by those class rules then it ceases to be a member of the class. End of.

That has some implications.

The technical way in which an obligation on a boat, its owner or person in charge, to comply with class rules arises as follows:

NOR must state 'the classes to race, any handicap or rating system that will be used, and the classes to which it will apply' (rule J1.1(4)),
'rules' includes the class rules [and handicap/rating rules] (Definitions: Rule (d ),
Boats, competitors, owners, owners representatives, and persons in charge are bound by the rules (rule 3, rule J1.1( 2 ), rule J1.2( 6 ), rule 78.1)

So, once a class is specified in a NOR, that identifies which class rules must be complied with.

Once the NOR say that some handicap or rating system will be used, the rules of that system become class rules, and must be complied with.

ISTM that a NOR could quite validly avoid a long list by specifying 'classes listed in such and such a version of a PY list'.

The first that occurs to me is that as soon as it ceases to be a member of the xyz class presumably *none* of the class rules apply, and now I think of it does that have interesting implications as regards RRS49.1?

Ok, so the particular issue here is class rules which 'switch off' or modify standard RRS.

I suppose readily worked round by inventing a set of class rules for "John Smith's Boat which is a Laser 4000 hull with Rooster Sails and the class rules are just like the Laser 4000 class rules with the bit about sails deleted",

Yes, or maybe you could specify a class as 'A Class Like a Laser'

and does it say class rules must be written down?

Well the WS Regulations indicate that the class rules for a WS Class must conform to certain specifications which sort-of imply that they must be in writing.

But there can certainly be 'unwritten rules', however much judges might dislike trying to adjudicate them.

So you could have an 'unwritten rule' in your club that nobody will protest a Laser with a replica sail, or a Mirror with green sails etc. As long as this doesn't come up against a demand for strict enforcement of more formal rules this will work OK.

The next is that the published handicap for the xyz class is not necessarily appropriate for the boat, and the club IMHO *must* be notified of precisely what the boat is so they can issue a handicap.

Well, the club/OA might need to know that, but unless there is an undeniable rule (that probably means written in the NOR/SI) that non-conformances must be declared and specified in detail, it doesn't amount to something that boats are obliged to do.

If you claim a boat is a Wotsit 15 on your entry, and actually you know damn well it isn't then that's a serious matter.

Maybe, but at entry level, some people might very well not know the difference: they see a little metal plate and they write that down in the 'Class' box on the entry form.

I think from a PYAG/EHAG point of view it would be immensely important that if a boat isn't a Wotsit 15 in any respect then its clearly marked in the club return as not being a Wotsit 15 so it doesn't reduce the integrity of the calculations.

Wabsolutely.

But the main thing is down to eligibility, and I think that's really down to the club and the NOR. I think the club can do what it likes as regards eligibility.

Yes.

On the one hand it seems to me very important that sailors maintain boats in classes simply so we have real classes for the returns.

Yes, but what's neat and tidy for PY returns isn't necessarily fun for sailors.

If there aren't sufficient genuine Wotsit 15s racing then there can be no published number for Wotsit 15s,

So, if the Wotsit 15 was such an awful boat that every one of them has been modified out of sight, then the Wotsit 15 surely deserves to drop out of the PY lists.

and if there aren't sufficient genuine boats of any class then dinghy Portsmouth yardstick will end up following cruiser PYS into history.

Can't speak about UK, but in Aus we have a variety of performance based club keelboat systems that seem to please their users.

Yes, it certainly helps to have a range of competitively sailed, substantial classes, to provide 'anchor points' in the yardstick scale.

When I was a little involved in planet dinghy, many years ago in Victoria, we used to hold a State One-of-a-Kind (OAK) regatta annually which, in some measure validated the Yardstick pecking order. Is/Was that done in UK?

On the other hand I don't think genuine prototypes and one offs should be prohibited from racing.