Only 2 subjects seem to get peoples gruff on this forum. SMOD's verses established classes and Olympic class choices..... why?

Originally posted by 49erGBR735HSC I know, I'm sitting in a flat in Plymouth wearing sailing jackets because our boilers broken, oh well at least we're saving money on the gas bill

What is the world coming to ... students with heating.

When I were a lad at Uni I remember waking up one morning (after a few beers) with my hair frozen to the window; that was of course when I had hair...

Then when I went to the bathroom I found the bog had frozen over ...

Youth of today; blah blah ...

Bathroom? Window?? What luxuries!!!!

Listening to you, I thought you'd studied in a cave!

When I was a student............. err....... no...... better not...

Waddya mean?

Yeah! Damn students!!!!

Rick, I think you've just started another Banter section, we'd better start talking about boaty stuff before this thread gets moved into the banter bit.

Any thoughts on the Laser Vago, wait we've just done that with the RS500....... (sure someone's mentioned that before too)

just wondering, what would you exspect the normal reaction to a new SMOD to be?

 Perhaps

In this case -ve but seems the thread is going round in circles - time to move on

Even the Firefly in 1946 had people objecting, in case it took away from the N12's...(though as I was born 20 years later I couldn't join in that particular discussion!). Maybe we should use this thread to ask whether there are too many development classes...we could combine the canoes and the Moths to make a narrow 14' singlehander with sitting out aids, the Cherub and the 14 to make a 13' twin trapeze craft and the Merlin Rocket and Formula 18, on the basis that they are about the same width...

Im mildly worried you might be serious...

Me too; Are Merlins really 8foot 6 wide

Isn't that what the Merlin and the Rocket classes did in the 60's?

Whilst we have new SMODs all the time why no innovation in the definition of a new development class?

Rick

No, not serious - there can never be too many development classes!

And yes, I know the Merlin is not 8' 6" wide, but trying to imaging an amaglamation of the 2 classes was amusing!

A new development class would have the advantage of not being so highly developed, and therefore cheaper, than the established classes, at least at first. Trouble is, while hulls can still be competitive when home built, how do you stop the sails costing an arm and a leg, as very few people could produce a home made sail to compete with the flashy ones

What would be the outline formula for a new dev class?

max length = 3.7m
max beam = 1.8m
max weight = 50kg

Funny thing is most of us don't run around in Ford Anglias or Mrk 4 cortinas- both 'respected'

people don't race e-type jags or even build em now.

why do we hang on to old stuff???

Is it something peculiar about the relationship we have to our boats?

Combining classes might not be such a silly idea.  I'm sure Javelins and Ospreys would enjoy racing together, their yardsticks are 1.4% different and they are of a similar type.  You could include the ISO and Spice but they are of a different type.  Then there is the 470 and the Hornet (same yardstick) and perhaps include the Fireball, all are a similar types.

As for me (L4000) I am concerned that I beat the Ospreys in my club and this is not always possible due to some of their characteristics suiting some conditions, yet we are supposed to be 3.2% faster.

There could be some mileage in going back to a yardstick system with a median of 100 so that we don't get so picky and enjoy the competition more.

We hang on to old stuff because it still works and its still fun and because for most of the people out there racing our boats are toys not tools. After all what use in the 'real world' is being able to sail, it dosent realy help me at work just gives my boss something else to moan about when I turn up knackered and tanned on a monday morning or spend half the week dreaming about racing or working out how to get to an event.

It dosent really matter how modern the design is of the class you are racing as long as the racing is good and your enjoying it. If our boats were simply there to be the fastest way to get from A to B we would all have something with an engine on the back.

And just cos they stopped making e-type jags doesnt make them less cool, it probaly makes them more cool

I couldn't agree more OT.  Absolutely spot on.

Is the nature of dinghy sailing changing?

In the past dinghy owners would be out every weekend becoming skilled with their boats.

Now; it seems many people will buy a boat and sail it 4 times a year and as we know this is not enough to get any good.

So, is this why bunch of dumbed down plastic boats have hit the market; for the occassional sailor?

What we need is not more classes but a programme to encourage those occassional sailors to become more active growing the numbers on the water week in week out - shame noone on the RYA can every be bothered to chip in on this forum - buy hey we are not Olympic sailors so they don't really bother with us ...

Rick

 A single-hander with trapeze for lightweights is an idea that's already been developed in New-Zealand, (Farr 3.7) but nothing suitable is available in the UK. If anyone wants to import boats from NZ, I'll be your first customer !

See http://www.sentech.co.nz/farr37/ - http://www.sentech.co.nz/farr37/  and thank you to Blobby who sent me the link aaaaages ago. 

Originally posted by Garry Originally posted by Guest#260 What we need is not more classes but a programme to encourage those occassional sailors to become more active growing the numbers on the water week in week out - shame noone on the RYA can every be bothered to chip in on this forum - buy hey we are not Olympic sailors so they don't really bother with us ... Rick I wouldn't expect the RYA to announce policy on this site or it to be an appropriate forum for a debate with the RYA - they should be engaged with their members be they individuals, clubs, or classes. I also disagree with the the comment about the RYA only being for olympic sailors. However, IMHO this is actually an area for clubs to develop, supported by the RYA! If we want this area to be more dinghy orientated then more dinghy sailors need to join and swing the agenda (and budget) in that direction. And the RYA do do things for normal club sailors - Dinghy Show, training scheme, racing organisation & handicaps, insurance for clubs,sailability, onboard, VAT on second hand boats, incident reporting, licencing laws... Yes I'm sure they could do more and I'm not sure the're very good at communicating effectively with club sailors but we'd all notice if they stopped doing the basic organisation. My blunt message is engage and influence rather than sl*g off, its far more effective

Garry,

I have been a member of the RYA for 30 years, unlike most dinghy sailors, and in many respects they do a good job but I fear they focus too much on elite areas of the sport. That is not sl*gging off but an observation.

Rick

Take a look at their accounts, and in particular the "income" side, and the reason for that focus becomes clear. Also "not sl*gging off but an observation".

Yes, well they would get more income from membership if they were seen as worth investing in for the club sailor.

How many people on this list are RYA members?

Rick

Good question. I think people tend to now try a lot of different activities over time, rather than being wedded to one. I've got through a number of periods of organising crews for bigger keelboats. What I observed quite often was people who wanted to join a fleet for a while, or aim at some particular event like the Fastnet. They would be very committed for a period, then move on to something else entirely.

It's a quite different pattern to sailing every Sunday at your local club, man and boy as it were, and I think it is becoming very common. I have nothing to back this up other than personal observation! But it has a lot of implications for volunteer run sports. Sailing is by no means the only one that has trouble finding the people needed to run racing/competitions of all sorts. The people who do that are normally those who are focussed long-term on a single activity.

I agree - I think people are more willing now to give money rather than time.

This will probably lead to a trend in consolidation in both classes and clubs.

More large expensive professionaly run clubs and classes ...

Rick

I am. I don't think it's that good a deal for individual members though.  

Judging from your previous thread (i'm not going to mention it, they've had enough free publicity!) an ISO/L4000 type is in demand.  Just a 'standard' size, speed etc one wire, moderate size asymmetric - nothing too radical that would lead to an arms war and could be enjoyed by average weekend sailors. 

I think it would be great if Laser/LDC/Topper agreed on a format and all offered a design for a new development class.  That way there are market forces, freedom of choice, new ideas and a constant refreshment and evolution without killing off the class. 

Just an idea, I haven't thought it through fully so its probably full of holes.  But it would allow these manufacturers to introduce new designs without damaging sales of other boats in their ranges (for example the ISO and L4000 could be conidered early examples of 'Formula 15' designs.  Now that the ISO is struggling Topper could introduce the ISO2 as their latest F15 offering, to get back to the top of the pecking order).

As an aside - rather than a box rule (max length, width, sail area) how about allowing trading between these speed factors e.g. you could try a longer boat but at the expense of sail area, or bigger sail/narrower boat.  I think the America's Cup Class rule works on this principle but I don't know the details.

Finally, further to Mark's request, I would like to declare that I have no commercial interest in any sailboat company whatsoever.

I agree that it would lead to massive experimentation and therefore isn't ideal to encourage the big manufacturers.  However, the different designs wouldn't need different handicaps because they are all the same class.

Chewie

Is home building now a thing of the past because you can't make fast boats from plywood?

Making a Mirror or even a Fireball used to be OK but making a boat foam sandwich seems a bit tough ...

Rick

I'll bet it's a tiny minority of people that could make a ply boat these days (I couldn't), however if you can then your more than welcome to make a boat for my new class...

I just want the big boys to join in, in the hope that it may halt the proliferation of discrete, yet similar, classes.  I suppose my point is - if they are that similar, bung 'em in the same class!  Which is similar to the excellent Roll Tacks article about grouping similar classes for open meetings (but it may be best not to delve into that one)

Building in foam is easier from home than you think...... check out resin manfacturers sites for 'how to' info.

But don't you have to get your hands dirty with lots of nasty smelly sticky stuff?

The numbers being built in foam sandwich are tiny compared to how many plywood boats were being built in the 60's though. I can't imagine "the home build revolution" of everything from Gremlins to Fireballs happening in foam sandwich. The people who built those boats would now go and buy the SMOD equivelent off the shelf - Feva for Mirror, RS200 for Ent, RS800 for Fireball etc. And many of the old classes are now effectivly SMODs for the majority of people who buy new ones, with home building only being done by the very keen or the traditionalist cruising person.