You would however have to hail "Protest" at the first reasonable opportunity (which in the circumstances your describe would be almost immediately after the incident) - you can't wait until he has failed to take a 2-turn penalty, and you certainly can't wait until you have come ashore and discussed it with him.

There is no ISAF (or RYA) Case which says that the word "Protest" has to the be the first thing you shout, but the more you say before you use the word "Protest", and the longer you leave it, the more likely that your protest will be ruled invalid.

This particular case shows even more what a nonsense the current position is, surely as an observer it is reasonable to establish whether turns will be completed before taking action as a third party?

I appreciate this is how the rules are right now, nut surely we need something that encourages rule observance at club and open meeting levels?

Sargesail, no doubt you will advise me that you have to say protest, my point is that the Rules will be reviewed in 2016 and it would be good to introduce a system that I am sure the vast majority of club and open meeting sailors would prefer.

No I'm not going to say that.  My argument in favour of the clear and singular way of initiating formal proceedings is this:

That in many incidents there is preamble shouting/discussion before there is actually an infringement.  Let's take as an example a Windward Leeward where L feels that W is not keeping clear.  The use of the word 'protest' makes a very clear delineation between the pre-chat, and the fact that L considers that there has been an infirngement, which in this case would be accompanied by a change of course to leeward.

And on the other hand I don't see why you can't accept that 'protest' means -'I consider that you have infringed me and thus expect you to exonerate yourself ('do your turns')'.

Finally in your example above it is surely appropriate that the two potential offenders know that there is a third party interest, including intent to protest, as they sort it out among themselves.

Personnally I suspect that many club and open sailors would soon wish for a return to the status quo ante if this suggestion were adopted.

You received cogent answers to all the questions you ask here in a long thread that you started in August 2014 http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11593&KW=reasonable+opportunity&title=protests-and-the-first-reasonable-opportunity" rel="nofollow - here .

Originally posted by jeffers Submit a request to the RYA rules group then David.

Originally posted by gordon Hailing "Protest" is a clear and unambiguous message. It means 'I believe that you have broken a rule. I am initiating the dispute resolution process that the sport of sailing has decided to use and that both you and I, when entering the race, have agreed to use. I am informing you of my intention, when I get ashore, to lodge a formal protest. You now have the opportunity to take an alternative penalty if such a penalty is appropriate' Not bad for one short word.  Shouting "Do your turns'  on the contrary means 'You have annoyed me but I cannot really be bothered to do anything about it.  ISAF rules are for use worldwide. All sailors throughout the world use exactly the same word to initiate sailng's chosen dispute resolution process. Even the French now use 'Protest' often pronounced 'Proté' and have invented the appalling neologism 'Protestation' to as a noun meaning Protest. Critics of formality in this and other aspects of sailing seem to forget that even when they are sailing at their local club on an evening race they are competing on the first rung of the organised sport of sailing.  Football players may enjoy a kick around in the park, with no referee and limited application of the rules. However, as soon as competition becomes in any way formal the man with the whistle is present, trying to apply, to the best of his ability the same rules as apply at the World Cup Final. As sailors we should be proud of the self-policing tradition of our sport. We should do everything we can to reinforce that tradition. Using the word Protest is one way to do this.

Originally posted by Brass For any level, I think that one or two words, such as 'Do your Turns Protest!' or 'Geeze you hit me Protest' should be quite acceptable.  The delay in uttering a short phrase is, in my opinion, trivial and should be disregarded by a protest committee.  Note we are talking in terms of only a few seconds here.

That is not how your MNA has interpreted  the rules

Originally posted by Brass ... a pause while you look to see whether they have done turns or not is not acceptable. RYA 1999/1 ... A boat that waits to see whether another boat will take a penalty ... has not acted at the first reasonable opportunity.

Why do you say this?

Do you have any evidence that establishes that rules observance is good, bad or indifferent?

Yes, you'd better believe that if the RYA puts in a rules submission it will be carefully considered by the ISAF Racing Rules Committee, on which the RYA is represented, and eventually by the ISAF Council.

I find "Do your turns" as the first thing uttered quite aggressive.

"Protest" is not.

This gives the protestee time to think without being put under pressure.

I have no issues at all with the wording of this, as accept that there can be a small delay, as long as it is the first hail between the boats, following the conclusion of the incident.

They can discuss whatever else after.

It is simple, clear and non confrontational. Unlike phrases such as "do your turns", as they are often in my experience shouted by the more aggressive sailor, who is often the one pushing the rules beyond the limit, and usually has no understanding of the word onus.

Andy

I don't want to place too much reliance on the 'rules are rules' approach, and the time for informing the protestee might be viewed as, to a degree, arbitrary, but the 'as soon as reasonably possible' standard seems both logical and simple, and in the interests of simplicity should not be complicated by different variants for different 'statuses' of boats.

So with the above in mind to many, including myself, "do your turns" and the completion thereof, is a pretty satisfactory alternative.  I should add that "do your turns" is usually called in pretty straightforward incidents, such as port and starboard, windward leeward etc. and most of us accept this as a reminder that someone saw and objected to someone's action and we are not going to get away with the offence.

The fleet that I sail in is a pretty robust group of grumpy old men and we can take it when someone says "do your turns".  The joy is that it is accepted that if things are not resolved on the water or in the protest room (though in seven years I am unaware of such an event) matters are not taken off the water.

I would add that most of us are quite sensitive to the robustness of who we are calling, and for instance would probably not get into a "do your turns" discussion with nippers.

I should add, and I suspect someone will draw my attention that I have also said and been derided on this forum, that if someone says to me "do your turns" I now have the option of ignoring them because they have not said "protest" at the earliest opportunity, so I suppose "do your turns" is actually quite a polite request, since the caller has given up his right to protest and is merely inviting you to consider completing a voluntary penalty.

There are incidents that are not straightforward, given that we are not allowed thinking time, these situations are usually resolved with some self study after the race and an apology to or from the parties concerned.

This may not be the correct process but I suspect it works for weekend warriors up and down the country.

To which someone else might respond:

I guess that you need a bit of a rules guru to act as an arbitrator?  Does anyone have hands on experience of RYA Exoneration Penalties working? 

Do you need a bit of a rules guru to act as an arbitrator?