How can this be fair race management?
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Race Management
Forum Discription: For race officers and competiors to discuss the topic
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11844
Printed Date: 09 Aug 25 at 2:38pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: How can this be fair race management?
Posted By: iGRF
Subject: How can this be fair race management?
Date Posted: 06 Jan 15 at 9:23am
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http://www.sailracer.org/ResultsEntry/ResultViewer/121951/Oxford%20Blue" rel="nofollow - Look at the Halo and Phantom in 5th and 6th position.
Why are they that way round? What cock a maimie rule set up delivers that sort of decision and why has it come about? With less overall points and a lower discard surely it should be the other way round and what are all these half points? Anybody? What's going on was it some sort of pursuit calculation? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Replies:
Posted By: Time Lord
Date Posted: 06 Jan 15 at 9:33am
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Take the time to read the RSS and the appendix on scoring.
When you compare the two sets of scores, of the countable scores, the Halo has the lowest score of 3.5 compared with the Phantom's 4. The discards are exactly what they say they are ie discards which do not count for scoring purposes. A fairly basic situation which will occur several times at an Open meeting. ------------- Merlin Rocket 3609 |
Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 06 Jan 15 at 9:37am
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But the Halo had the lowest single race score after discards - 3.5. (No idea where the 0.5 came from - a tie with the D0 probably?) ------------- Peter Ex Cont 707 Ex Laser 189635 DY 59 |
Posted By: Time Lord
Date Posted: 06 Jan 15 at 9:46am
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To clarify this further, iGRF needs to read RRS Appendix 1, section 8 as below:
SERIES TIES A8.1 If there is a series-score tie between two or more boats, each boat’s race scores shall be listed in order of best to worst, and at the first point(s) where there is a difference the tie shall be broken in favour of the boat(s) with the best score(s). No excluded scores shall be used. NB before you ask excluded scores mean discards. The half a point is easily explained as the Halo tied with another boat in that race - again covered in RRS section 8. I sincerely hope someone else does the race scoring down in deepest Kent! ------------- Merlin Rocket 3609 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 06 Jan 15 at 10:46am
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So if that is the case, how do you explain the tie break of the Merlln and the Scorpion further down? at 13/14
That Halo/Phantom result is unfair whichever way you call it, they tied, but the Phantom had lower points and a lower discard, had in fact beaten the Halo more than he'd beaten him, makes the whole point of racing any more than the last race irrelevant. Stupid is as stupid does. f**ked up is what it is how do you score a third and a half against the other guys four ffs? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 06 Jan 15 at 10:53am
it's just a change in scoring procedure to make sure a discard is a full discard. I can see your POV though, secondly from a 3 race series is their any need for a discard anyway? edit: when did a DNF begin scoring the same as a DNS? Surely getting around just one lap should put me a point above those who stayed in bed?
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 06 Jan 15 at 11:00am
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Time was if only three races were sailed they all counted and discards were recognised as the next call on a tie break, this system smacks of more of that Olympics double points on the last race scoring bullsh*t.
Don't you lot ever protest at this sort of crap? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 06 Jan 15 at 11:17am
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pussification... the discard allows for Olympic level gear failure, thus not rewarding the boy scout who can keep a boat on the water by his or herself for an entire regatta and has the stones to sail every race- where maybe, just maybe, the discard might actually count for something in the event of a tie break. Of course, being conservative types, I'm sure ISAF wouldn't have changed it without reason.......
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 06 Jan 15 at 11:19am
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It has been this way for a couple of decades at least - I'm sure a rules expert can ut a date on it. 13/14 is done in exactly the same way - 10 beats 11. Whether a discard is allowed is a different thing to how the scoring is done once it is. Pesonally, I have been both winner and loser in the system. What it does is reward the best result of an open, rather than punish the worst, which is what you get if you count the discard in a tie break. So long as everyone (apart from a few poeple who can't be arsed to read the SIs) knows the system, I can't see that it matters, so long as it is consistant. In terms of discards, there can be many reasons for having them. In the Minisails, I've been counting 2 from 4 races in a series, but bunging the better discard in as a tie break where neccessary. This has allowed 1 boat to be sailed by 2 different people and have them both qualify! Unique circumstances that more established classes don't really need, but made for a more fun day of sailing. In the Lightnings there is a discard, but all the races individually go forwards for the Traveller Series results, meaning it is still worthwhile for the boat who has, say, won the first 2 races to try hard in the 3rd, despite winning the event already. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 06 Jan 15 at 11:22am
| Can't get excited about it. All scoring systems are fair, all scoring systems are unfair. They all have pros and cons. Its ironic that computer based systems encourage uniformity because its easier to use the official default rather than set it up for a club's own preference. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 06 Jan 15 at 11:26am
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In this instance, I like uniformity. I'd hate to go to an open one week and lose on a tie break, then go somewhere else and lose on a tie break under a different system, where I'd have won if the system from the week before was being used. And if I won both, I'd not feel right about it, though I'd laugh, of course...
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 06 Jan 15 at 11:31am
Not a problem that concerns me these days... |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 06 Jan 15 at 11:43am
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Sorry, by the time I posted about the 13/14 I thought it was last race score, not lowest race score which I can see now (someone explained it).
It's still f**ked up though. If a guy beats someone two races to one in a three race event he should win - end of. That result is bollox. Which means this scoring system is also bollox, sorry, once more y'all have got it wrong. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 06 Jan 15 at 11:44am
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When I say win/lose, I'm referring to the tie break, not the open - could be between 10th and 11th one week and 9th and 10th the next... Mind, I did lose a tie break in 2013 that would have won me an open. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: NickM
Date Posted: 06 Jan 15 at 10:08pm
| Just to muddy the water further when Graeme's favourite class (Solos!) work out prizes for Masters, Grand Masters etc. within a major championship, they count the placings of individual age groups as though no other boats were racing. It is thus mathematically possible for a Master, say, who finishes ahead of another Master in the overall classification to finish behind the other guy when the Masters only classification is calculated, which might seem peverse - but it can cut both ways if it is the system always used. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 06 Jan 15 at 10:34pm
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So what was so wrong with the old RYA short series results we used to know and love?
I dunno, change, it's never for the better is it? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Simon Lovesey
Date Posted: 07 Jan 15 at 6:19am
For the GJW Direct SailJuice Winter Series we also extract results to form specific class rankings http://sailracer.org/eventsites/results_main.asp?eventid=195890&templ=195890&classtype=D-Zero" rel="nofollow - http://sailracer.org/eventsites/results_main.asp?eventid=195890&templ=195890&classtype=D-Zero The logic is this gives a far more balanced view of the boats competing against others in their class. Dan Holman was third overall at the Oxford Blue, the next boat Russ Hopkins was 47 places behind. If these actual scores rather than relatives ones were used in the class rankings this would have a massive effect. There will be a discard after this weekend's Bloody Mary and with four D-Zeros currently entered expect some shake up in the overall class standings. Talking discards, I do think three races is too low a number and we will re-visit for next year. ------------- http://www.sailracer.org" rel="nofollow - www.sailracer.org Online Sailing Results, GPS Tracking & Event Management |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 07 Jan 15 at 8:43am
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GRF, if a boat with 2 wins always beats a boat with 1, then a score of 16,16,16 will beat 1,17,17 - does that seem right? If it is closer, and comes out as a draw, having the high score winning keeps the above logic.
And of course the seperate class results should be scored as a fleet - if the order changes, so be it. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 07 Jan 15 at 10:01am
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2 Wins out of three no matter what the score, is the only fair solution if you want to reward consistency and not lucky flier flukes.
That was the whole purpose of the old short series system. (I should qualify that, by saying that three race events all should count and discards should not be entertained until race four) Another reason for me to stick to one race events, those results would have me spitting nails. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 07 Jan 15 at 10:07am
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Posted By: furtive
Date Posted: 07 Jan 15 at 11:07am
So what would you suggest when you have three boats, each having beaten one of the others in two out of three races (ABC, BCA, CAB)? Current rules deal with this, would you have all three winning? |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 07 Jan 15 at 11:24am
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Yes. if such a scenario occurred i.e. they all got 123 then it's a tie for 1st place. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 07 Jan 15 at 12:44pm
"No matter what the score..." But what if they didn't each score 'i.e. 123'?
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