The ubiquitous Streaker..
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Choosing a boat
Forum Discription: Ask any questions about the sport!
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11454
Printed Date: 05 Aug 25 at 4:35am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: The ubiquitous Streaker..
Posted By: iGRF
Subject: The ubiquitous Streaker..
Date Posted: 01 May 14 at 9:29pm
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Finally had a go in one, one of my Wednesday Afternoon lot has brought himself one of those Rooster jobbies like the one I saw at the Dinghy show, he's got it to supplement a Supernova which he find tricky when it's breezy, going into irons and all that, like me he took up sailing very late in life so has no residual motor memory to fall back on in tricky situations.
What did I think of it, well to be honest after my EPS it's a bit tame, like the Solo, I'm not quite ready for it just yet, having said that I can see as an all weather craft you race with rather than worry about staying upright in I can see it's merits, although it does feel a bit 'dead' in the after section the steering felt heavy, like the difference between a car with power steering and one without, which i normally put down to balance. It also seems to be, certainly in the breeze we had wednesday that the place you need to sit seemed to be right at the joint where there's a seat across the middle forcing you to sit further back than where I think the balance point should be. Then the sail, it seemed very small, then again mine is probably too big so it's just a subjective view. It has a daggerboard, those stupid baler things which will in all probability take ages to drain if you do ever go over and recover, i hate them we've got them in the Alto they should have been outlawed years ago and anyone making a boat with them flogged. I didn't spend much time in it, which kind of says everything, it must have been OK at some time in the sixties but now? An Antique childs toy to demonstrate how bad sailing was for your Grandfather, don't ever buy one. Would be my best advice.. not that anyone would ever listen to me and down the lake saying that, would be heresy.. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Replies:
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 02 May 14 at 12:05am
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Heavy helm on a Streaker? You can't have had the rudder right down, or it's not set up to allow you to do so. A girl at WSC has just swapped from a Radial to a Streaker and one of the real improvements she commented on was the lightness of the helm. It's all down to the distance between the centre of pressure and the pivot axis, which in turn is dependent on how far the blade pivots down and forward. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 02 May 14 at 7:34am
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They must be selling to all those cheating pot hunters after a lipstick handicap... ------------- |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 02 May 14 at 9:33am
Well not heavy like an RS500, but heavy big bit of wood on a stick, and nasty flat sided no shape foils, the one thing that has constantly surprised me in dinghy land is the terrible foil shapes you are forced to tolerate in the name of 'class is all the same' racing. Other than the set that first came on the Alto I can't say I've been impressed by any foil on any boat I've brought, and to think we used to be in Awe of hand made Milanes daggers we used to buy for our racing windsurfers back in the day, where did that woodworking skill go I wonder.. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 02 May 14 at 11:35am
You can still buy the likes of Milanes foils, and very fine they are too (ever examined a Winder rudder off, e.g. a new Fireball?). Trouble is, many class rules forbid proper profiling, limiting taper to within so many inches from the edge, presumably in the interests of holding everyone down to the same low common denominator and equal racing. To be fair, I've often been amazed how little difference it makes on low-speed boats. But you said of the Streaker "the steering felt heavy, like the difference between a car with power steering and one without, which i normally put down to balance." That's just a question of how far you can push the rudder down. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 02 May 14 at 11:40am
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1975, by the way, so newer than the Laser... not that it makes it a spring chicken, or anything! If the helm is heavy and the rudder is fully down, maybe the rig isn't set up quite right? ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 02 May 14 at 1:04pm
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I did check the rudder was down and as I said it was probably acceptable the boat had just finished a race, but the sail is a fairly unsophisticated low aspect triangle and it wasn't windy windy. The EPS has always had a very well balanced feel, it's the joy of it, so it's just a comparison and probably as different as chalk and cheese.
Had I gotten into it after say a Solo which is also a tad on the ponderous side steering wise I probably wouldn't have noticed it, I just like light helms that can be fingertip guided. A blunt slab sided foil doesn't help, the narrower the entry the more sensitive a foil feels I've found. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 02 May 14 at 1:15pm
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Nonetheless, you can have "fingertip guidance" on any boat, even one with a slab-sided rudder blade, if you just modify it so that the blade can go down far enough. Doesn't mean the boat is balanced, just the rudder; you could have massive weather helm but still no load on the tiller. Think of the old gas-guzzling US cars - appalling handling but almost no feel to the steering whatsoever. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 02 May 14 at 1:25pm
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They do vary a lot though, you have to admit that, and the bloody negative effect having too wide a foil has is every irritating, case to point my replacement Alto blade. I find RS rudder foils not very nice to handle.
The balance of the boat bit I wasn't referring to the rudder, that was just that point in the boat where I 'feel' I should be sat. I think this probably comes from Boards, they are super sensitive to where you stand because they have a lot less volume to support you, so arse dragging can become a real issue, it's something I've noticed with folk in boats they don't seem to pay as much attention to where they're sat except in extreme circumstances (No wind or Very windy) and I often find myself lazily sat at the wrong point purely by the badly sited controls (they're set too far back in the EPS.) ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 02 May 14 at 1:56pm
Most do indeed under-rate fore-aft trim. Try sailing a 2000 if you want a boat that encourages you to sit in all the wrong places; in light-moderate weather, if you're comfy, you're likely in the wrong place... ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 02 May 14 at 2:10pm
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I thought light weather balance and trim was the reason the Crews' Union was formed in the first place? Well, that and beer, but to whinge about being sat stuffed forwards and to leeward, in the exact spot the kicker goes when the helm lets the main out without saying anything.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 15 May 14 at 9:20am
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Hmm, having to rethink my views on Streaker ownership after yesterday. Another of my Wednesday afternoon contemporaries has joined the fray in a Streaker which make four and of yesterdays fleet which was a bit light due to vacations and I'd left very quickly behind thanks to a good start and a longish beat with shifts and for the first time I felt a pang of loneliness as I set off on the hopeless task of putting the necessary minutes between me and the laser I'm normally in a death match with as they had a close battle. My race was only about sailing as short a course as possible and staying in the wind, I'm not normally out front that long, I usually screw up with the ropes or wiggle thing getting jammed in something or other, they catch me and it becomes interestingly irritating as I have to try and overtake them all again but for the last three weeks that's not happened. It may be because I'm getting more practised, and/or I've sorted affairs out with all those ropes thanks to some garden hose, so maybe it's time to reconsider. I have to say, yesterday however not very nice it might be to sail, I'd rather have been beaten by a couple of seconds over the water in a Streaker by another Streaker with him just in front of me knowing I'd gotten a shift wrong or he'd out manoeuvred me during a water call on a mark rounding than as it happened a clear four minute lead not enough by 10 secs because they're running Streakers off 1174 and my 1062 still isn't favourable enough, but yet it's destroyed my relationship with my previous protagonist who they run of 1102. Either way I can no longer win fairly in my own mind in the boat I love to race in so I may be forced into sailing some old hulk.. how wrong is that?
Cue class racing is best even if by doing so you have to compromise your enjoyment of the thrill of sailing argument.. I need to have another look at the class rules, see what they say about foils and steering although I imagine by now every loophole must have been explored by the lipstick applicators and still there are self balers - ugh. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: mongrel
Date Posted: 15 May 14 at 10:09am
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Try one for a bit, if its not right, sell it on. The class racing aspect, for most people, makes up for inadequacies with the boat.
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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 15 May 14 at 10:22am
I agree with that totally, but if you're pushing the limitation of the boat (as I was in Solo at 100kg inland, light winds only) then you have to accept that amplifies the compromises to a level too. Not an issue from Graeme, he'd fit well in a streaker... probably be quite competitive in the light stuff, and non of the distraction and b**locks that comes with spinnakers, racks, wings, crews etc I'd love to hear more about Graeme rediscovering tactics he's probably long since forgotten. You don't get to the positions he got to in a 300 strong fleet world level without it, even on a windy plank. Yet that history, and knowledge base, rarely translates well here in his forum prose. At best you get old school thinking on tidal matters, which is pretty much a m'eh topic clouded by varying interpretations on nomenclature, rather than anything of tactical relevance and differing opinion.... love to hear about the wind bends, tactical thoughts etc Hearing about the trials and tribulations of real racing, - man on man - that would be great stuff. I think it's a bit hard for anyone to really concentrate on tactics and the game in hand, when they seem rather too obsessed by the numbers on an RYA spreadsheet and how this or that class is allegedly manipulating the system to their advantage. That's my sensible post quota over for May. Be back again in June for 1 more.
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 15 May 14 at 12:38pm
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Get a Streaker - it will go well with your assless wetsuit. There is a lot to be said for getting a boat where the difference between the sailors is obvious on the water, but only if you actually enjoy sailing the fecking thing. Why bother otherwise? For the glory? ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Blue One
Date Posted: 15 May 14 at 12:39pm
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1174 is very generous for the streaker, even on a puddle.
Nice boats, a little uncomfortable in light winds.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 15 May 14 at 1:04pm
If you put it like that then no, you're right and I hate to say it; Pain May be only temporary, Chicks may Dig Scars, but although Glory may last forever, there's not a lot of it to be had on Redoubt lake. 
However I have been perusing the Streaker sight and clearly I don't know enough about the many 'options' that now appear to be had with the boat. It just goes to show that the 'friends demo' is never the best way to research a boat, I read somewhere they can have a double bottom and some pictures appear to show them without that bulkhead you can't get in front of and the rear is now narrower. I'm trying to find out wether it would be permitted not to 'stay' the mast, or at least move the shrouds below the boom like the EPS. I wonder just how 'open' the deck and mast support arrangement is.. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 15 May 14 at 1:06pm
Agreed, I suspect it's got something to do with moving everything close to the ludicrous Miracle figure, they have the double whammy of an already favourable handicap coupled to some very very good championship class sailors stooging around in them, I know I know they need their asses kicked, don't think I don't tell them at every opportunity.. 
So they're using that Sailwave thing that I still have yet to have a look at, which spits out recommendations, that with a flavour of the Sailjuice lot that some of them once went to and only enhanced the idea that the Miracle was 'under' handicapped if ever more nonsense could be suggested.. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 15 May 14 at 7:10pm
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The numbers that come out of sailwave are the raw py that each boat would have to sail in that particular race, so not great to use to adjust numbers. If Redoubt is using the script for cruiser racing to generate a personal number then fair enough, but I would assume they are using the RYA PYS website to get your recommended numbers.
As for the Miracle numbers I agree it's mad, but the guys at your club who are doing well in the Miracle know that that's the case so why don't you just adjust their number and not everyone else's. I spoke to them at the Dinghy Show and they were good blokes who know what's going on and I'm sure they'd be willing to make your racing fairer. |
Posted By: robin34024
Date Posted: 15 May 14 at 10:38pm
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''I'm trying to find out wether it would be permitted not to 'stay' the mast, or at least move the shrouds below the boom like the EPS.'' ------------- |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 15 May 14 at 11:44pm
The class rules permit only certain specified spars, unmodified, so the answer is almost certainly no. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 16 May 14 at 8:57am
They are good people and there is absolutely no way that I'd want to be rude or even slightly belligerent I'm a relative newcomer sailing a boat that probably with hind site isn't as suitable for that water as it might of at first appeared, hence my scrutiny of the Streaker. If this was a different thread it is a perfect example of how badly the PY system is broken, it's one thing having a distant Governing body out of touch, but when the blame then transfers to close sailing acquaintances even friends or colleagues the likelihood of just fading away rather than cause a nuisance is far greater - thats human psychology. Or as I have always suspected people are forced into sailing a class they won't enjoy against their will, the class won't move with the times, and so the slow creep of erosion continues. Having said that I haven't fully explored the Streaker, but with all the advances the lipstickers have manage to slowly make below the rig, the very least that should happen should be a carbon mast, the sail is only 6.5 it's tiny by modern standards and an EPS style rigging system if unstayed wasn't acceptable would enable running by the lee laser style sailing techniques. It doesn't look much like a planing hull so it probably wouldn't be as effective but there could be some more tactical opportunities on the downwind leg, who knows until it's tried. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 16 May 14 at 10:21am
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Try winning a handicap race on a tideway in a Miracle. Light airs, top or bottom of the tide (i.e. next to no current), maybe, otherwise forget it. A beat against the flow and you are stuffed compared to faster boats, let alone trying to keep up with a Streaker off-wind. But yes, on a lake it may well be a good bet. And that, GRF, is a key to how a large chunk of your formidable gripes about the PY system could be addressed - if the official figures came in three sets: lake, tidal & sea. Even just the first two would be a huge improvement. Downs SC tackle the tidal issue with what looks like a simple skew of the numbers about a mean of 1000, which is supported by theory. http://www.downssailingclub.co.uk/sailing/py_numbers.htm" rel="nofollow - http://www.downssailingclub.co.uk/sailing/py_numbers.htm Of course, you can argue forever about how much the numbers should be skewed, and the requirement will change from tide to tide, so if the numbers are set at club level griping is guaranteed, but an official set of tidal numbers from the RYA would go a long way to making things fairer, and make it much easier for people to shrug and accept the imperfections of the system than it is now. We have looked at introducing tidal PY's at WSC several times over the years, but have always pulled back from adopting them, partly because if the sailing committee sets them people will feel the results are more arbitrary than if we'd stuck to the 'proper numbers', and more importantly because it would mean that the damned Wayfarers would win by even more than they do now! ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: Er-Indoors
Date Posted: 16 May 14 at 10:24am
And if it is not there, there is always some cleat to sit on. ------------- Lightning 418 "Octarine" |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 16 May 14 at 11:21am
https://flic.kr/p/nAxYQL" rel="nofollow">
This however looks like a whole other ball game, that curved seat, so you can get a bit further forward, it looks like it might have a double floor, the smooth lines, you could almost be forgiven for thinking it was something modern - then you look at the boom.. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 16 May 14 at 11:58am
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Apart from the whacking great "Team Rooster" on the aft deck, it looks pretty good. Would the boom be better if it was a different colour? Or do you want a wishbone to hang off? ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 16 May 14 at 12:06pm
It would be better if it were a carbon 'I' beam, but they haven't spotted it yet.
 ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 16 May 14 at 12:12pm
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I wouldn't buy another new boat without a carbon boom - it handles so much nicer than alloy through the gybes. One of Mike's early and best changes for the Blaze was a carbon boom - more important than a carbon mast imho. ------------- |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 16 May 14 at 12:36pm
And why, pray, do you believe that an I-beam would be better than a closed tube? ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 16 May 14 at 1:09pm
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Imagine it smacking you in the forehead!
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 16 May 14 at 1:37pm
I just love re-educating you river folk..
So now let me start with the obvious question, why was it deemed better to have square sectioned alloy rather than closed alloy tubes? Shall I wait for you to answer or shall I go straight in with the blinking obvious.. No, I think I'll wait come on then 'brain of the medway,' you tell me.. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 16 May 14 at 2:01pm
Er, square section tubing is a 'closed tube'. The I-beam is an 'open tube', and as such has far lower torsional stiffness - be careful how you attach your loads or it will twist up. Untwisted, true, it does offer a small gain in vertical stiffness/weight, but weighed against the likely increased air drag and, more to the point, as Rupert indicates, the need to wear a full-face helmet, I think I'll be sticking with a conventional boom. That said, I'd rather have an oval section than the common circular section carbon boom, but I guess the latter are cheaper to source. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 16 May 14 at 2:15pm
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Well all that may or may not be, but the logic I was applying was the simple fact that they seem to have to use excessively large tubes for the boom to overcome the side flex and a smaller section I beam could be used to do the same thing, be a tad lighter but more important have the kind of surfaces that better loan themselves to having things fixed to them, then again a squared tube could to the same, I just happen to have a thing about I beams and I beam battens that also work quite well.
So an I beam boom in carbon should also work, but Rupert is correct I think I'd sooner head butt a tube or rectangular tube than an I-beam, but then booms really don't need to be as long as they are if the sail were looked at and encompassed a foot batten with clew overhang. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 16 May 14 at 2:25pm
It is. What a wasted opportunity. Could have sent you off on a wild goose chase and made your dentist a fortune. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 16 May 14 at 2:56pm
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I've seen yachts sailing around with I beam booms big enough to walk on, so it isn't as though the idea isn't out there (and from decades ago), so I suspect it has been rejected rather than not thought of.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 16 May 14 at 3:58pm
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IN carbon? Can't say I've seen many carbon I beams about, carbon doesn't like being wrapped round sharp corners as bicycle frame manufacturers found out during the early stages. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 16 May 14 at 5:14pm
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Way before carbon, I think. Could be wrong, though - not kept up to date with yotty stuff.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: mongrel
Date Posted: 16 May 14 at 7:53pm
So why would you want to wrap it around the corners in an I beam then? Also, there looks about double the amount of material in that I beam as the would be of a round tube of a diameter the same as the I beam height.
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Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 16 May 14 at 8:42pm
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'I' beams are crap in torsion, and your boom actually has to deal with a fair amount of the stuff.
The yacht booms you have seen people walking on are often a carbon torque tube with a U shaped outer skin. The flanges at the top of the 'U' are what the crew walk on and the gap between the opening on the 'U' and the torque tube is where the mainsail is flaked into. At the end of the day the actual size is fairly insignificant, and often having a larger diameter allows you to thin down the section. There is as ever a trade to be done here. |