After Finishing
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1122
Printed Date: 07 Aug 25 at 7:13pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: After Finishing
Posted By: RC311
Subject: After Finishing
Date Posted: 18 Oct 05 at 3:13pm
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What is the correct penalty for a boat that has already finished a race and
whilst sailing back to shore accidently impedes a boat that is still racing, affecting that boats finishing position, but no damage occurs to either boat? The finished boat accepts that he was in the wrong, and caused the incident through lack of attention. ------------- 311 |
Replies:
Posted By: CurlyBen
Date Posted: 18 Oct 05 at 3:33pm
| I'm not an expert but I would guess that as the boat that has finished it is no longer subject to the racing rules of sailing, so there is no infringement of the rules on their part. However, I would imagine the boat that was impeded would be able to ask for redress to get it's place reinstated. |
Posted By: RC311
Date Posted: 18 Oct 05 at 4:07pm
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Thanks Curly Ben, but since no damage occured I can't see any grounds
for redress. It's a bit late for the boat to do penalty turns and I can't see anything in the rules that says that offender would have to retire. I would like to reiterate that the collision was accidental and not deliberate. There seems to be no solution to this in the ISAF Case Book, so perhaps some of you rules experts out there could shed some light on this. ------------- 311 |
Posted By: CurlyBen
Date Posted: 18 Oct 05 at 4:12pm
| Redress is not purely for damage; I do a lot of team racing, and there have been a few occasions when a boat has broken the rules (normally through misunderstanding them) where their gain has been much greater than their loss due to taking turns - for example their team may have gained 3 or 4 places for a loss of 2. At school level there is never redress (in my experience anyway!) but I'm pretty sure that would be grounds for it. Similarly in this case it was a mistake by another boat that caused the boat in question to lose places, so I think there would be grounds for it in this case, although it's going to be too late by now for it! |
Posted By: reddeck74
Date Posted: 18 Oct 05 at 6:11pm
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My guess is that the incident to which RC311 refers is covered by Rule 22.1
(Part 2) - "If reasonably possible a boat not racing shall not interfere with a boat that is racing". - If it does that is unfair I would say. Now Rule 2 (Part 1) covers fair sailing. However in this case the offending boat is not racing - having just finished. Note though that Part 2 does refer to a boat not racing, which seems to suggest Part 2 can apply to a boat no longer racing(?). Presumably therefore a disqualification as referred to in Rule 2 can be applied to a boat no longer racing. Any such disqualificatio would apply to the race just completed. If the offending boat were just cruising it cannot obviously be disqaulified How's that sound? ------------- David |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 18 Oct 05 at 6:40pm
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You are still under the racing rules after you have finished racing and in particular 22.1 applies. The preamble to part 2 implies that a penalty to a non-racing boat under 22.1 is possible. However I've never heard of a protest under 22.1 and the ISAF case book does not have any relevant cases either. I think the helm of the offending boat should buy the other helm a beer and that is all. "Fair sailing" is highly unlikely to come into this. An example of where it might is turning back after you have finished and deliberately sailing someone close to you in the series back down the fleet. Successful "fail sailing" protests are extremely rare. |
Posted By: CurlyBen
Date Posted: 18 Oct 05 at 7:04pm
| When are you no longer under racing rules then? I don't have the rule book to hand but in most regattas I've sailed they only apply from one minute before the start, and I can see no way a person not under racing rules can be penalised for breaking them - that's like breaking the laws of another country! I would imagine that any penalty would have to be written into the Sailing Instructions, as these apply at all times, not just whilst racing (I think). |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 18 Oct 05 at 7:22pm
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The rules start applying well before one minute before the start and still apply after you have finished. Read the preamble to part 2. The part 2 rules ("when boats meet") apply when you are in or near the race area and intend to race, are racing or have been racing. So although "racing" normally means from the preparatory signal until you finish, the rules apply once you are in the race area and "intend to race" and still apply until you leave the race area. So for example, you can be penalised for fouling a boat in another class which is racing when you are not. This situation happens in big keelboat regattas quite often; you are hanging around between races but other classes are racing on the same bit of water. Racing rules apply to you even though you are not presently racing. |
Posted By: CurlyBen
Date Posted: 18 Oct 05 at 7:34pm
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Thanks, that changes things a bit! As I say at most of the regattas
I've sailed in (and they've all been school sailing, where things are a
bit different) part of the sailing instructions has been that the
racing rules apply from one minute before the start. This is a bit more
applicable in team racing where it's useful to chase people before the
start to give your team better positioning, and things like proper
course don't apply. I'd go and find my rule book but it's packed for
moving house tomorrow! I suppose in this case it may be possible to
give the infringing boat a points penalty? That I guess would have to
be from a SI rather than the rules as they don't mention it. |
Posted By: Ralph T
Date Posted: 18 Oct 05 at 8:45pm
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Rule 86.1 covers what racing rules can be changed & not even the RYA can change Part 2! I run lots of schools & junior events (including fleet & team racing) & have never found it necessary to change when the racing rules come into effect. You may wish to bring Rule 86.1 to the attention of the organisers of your events but do it diplomatically as adults don't take too kindly to being told they are wrong by younger people (even if they do know more than the adult |
)Posted By: CurlyBen
Date Posted: 18 Oct 05 at 9:00pm
| I've left school now so it doesn't really make much difference to me! However I suspect that the rule 86.1 bit probably applies to things such as national or international events. I'm not sure but I don't think any regulations cover sailing on a lake on a national level, and pretty certain there are none for racing, so to a certain extent people can do as they please; the ISAF can't exactly tell people to stop racing just becuase they consider racing rules to apply from the 1 minute signal! To be honest I never really paid much attention to the sailing instruction I referred to, I think the idea was something to do with proper course, i.e. before 1 minute you had no proper course, after the 1 minute your proper course was towards the line - applicable if you're the leeward boat and established an overlap from astern. I tended to concentrate more on getting a good start! |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 19 Oct 05 at 8:41am
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You are either racing to the ISAF rules or you are not. If you are, then SIs can't change part 2 ("when boats meet") rules and certain others defined in rule 86. That includes the aspects we have been discussing in this thread. It makes no difference if it is a World Championship or a Sunday club race. Race organisers can run events to any rules they want but generally they don't. They use the ISAF rules. If you have any taken part in a sport where different organisers make up their own rules, you will know it is a complete nightmare and in particular makes international competition very difficult. We are lucky in sailing to have one internationally accepted set of rules. Not all sports are so well run. |
Posted By: RC311
Date Posted: 19 Oct 05 at 9:11am
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Seems like we still don't have a definitive answer to the initial question.
Stefan and Reddeck are quite correct that the offending boat could be protested under rule 22.1 - but what's the penalty? Idon't think it could be called 'unfair sailing' because the incident was unintentional, so he could not be dsq under rule 2. And what of the poor boat who was fouled and lost places - I can't see any grounds for redress! As stefan points out, this situation occurs in keelboat racing, and is also a not uncommon situation in radio controlled racing when skippers mentally switch off after the finish and sail back through the finishing fleet. ------------- 311 |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 19 Oct 05 at 11:52am
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Certainly there would have been grounds for redress, had a protest been filed in time, which I assume it wasn't. RRS 62.1b covers exactly this situation. The only available penalty on the offending boats appears to be DSQ, unless the SIs make a time penalty available. See 64.1a. However it seems rather harsh and in practice I've never heard of this happening to a boat that is not racing. |
Posted By: RC311
Date Posted: 19 Oct 05 at 1:44pm
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Thanks Stefan, your interpretations seems correct. I guess if there was a
collision, then the boat still racing would HAVE to protest anyway. ------------- 311 |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 19 Oct 05 at 11:37pm
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Just goes to show that not many people involved in our sport - including those who write SIs - actually read and understand the Rules. In the (good) old days when yachts (including dinghies) has flag halyards they would replace their cruising pennant before racing with a rectangular racing pennant. Racing Rules would apply between boats flying their racing pennnants. As I see it a boat having finished should keep clear of a yacht still racing. Should she infringe this rule she can be protested...and be penalised by the Protest Committee (even if the other boat was sailing in a separate event. Shoulkd it be unclear that one boat has not finished Part 2 rules apply. If it is clear that one boat is not, and has not been racing Coll Regs apply - and a boat can be penalised for infringing Coll Regs. This applies even on a duckpond
Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: NeilP
Date Posted: 15 Nov 05 at 10:56am
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Spot on Gordon. If you have finished and impede or collide with a boat still racing, and they protest you, the the protest would have to be upheld. The penalty would depend on whether time penalties are available to the PC. Neil |
Posted By: CurlyBen
Date Posted: 15 Nov 05 at 7:12pm
I was looking at the rules on the ISAF website - 01-04 rules but I doubt this has changed - and while you are right with what you quote, the preamble continues to say "A boat is racing from her preparatory signal until she http://www.sailing.org/default.asp?id=j/vFh%60Bv&MenuID=o/v/GXks5BsOe9?7vTvOOQY12%60?caLWFIZI?m?GXdrEijX&Tkn=15184119#finish - finishes and clears the finishing line and http://www.sailing.org/default.asp?id=j/vFh%60Bv&MenuID=o/v/GXks5BsOe9?7vTvOOQY12%60?caLWFIZI?m?GXdrEijX&Tkn=15184119#mark - marks or retires, or until the race committee signals a general recall, http://www.sailing.org/default.asp?id=j/vFh%60Bv&MenuID=o/v/GXks5BsOe9?7vTvOOQY12%60?caLWFIZI?m?GXdrEijX&Tkn=15184119#postpone - postponement or http://www.sailing.org/default.asp?id=j/vFh%60Bv&MenuID=o/v/GXks5BsOe9?7vTvOOQY12%60?caLWFIZI?m?GXdrEijX&Tkn=15184119#abandon - abandonment . a boat not http://www.sailing.org/sc.asp?ID=RRS_Definitions#racing - racing shall not be penalized for breaking one of these rules, except rule http://www.sailing.org/default.asp?ID=j/qFh%60Bq&MenuID=o/v/GXks5BsOe9?7vTvOOQY12%60?caLWFIZI?m?GXdrEijX#22.1 - 22.1 " Doesn't make any difference to this particular case, but if you can't be penalised under them then effectively the racing rules don't apply until the preparotory signal (other than 22.1 obviously) |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 15 Nov 05 at 7:33pm
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Yes but two points. The first is that you were originally arguing that the rules didn't start till 1 minute. The preparatory is normally 4 minutes. Second point is that 22.1 is extremely wide-ranging. You basically have no rights versus a boat that is racing. In some kinds of racing, it is extremely common to have boats around you racing while you are waiting for your start sequence. |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 15 Nov 05 at 7:45pm
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a boat not http://www.sailing.org/sc.asp?ID=RRS_Definitions#racing - racing shall not be penalized for breaking one of these rules, except rule http://www.sailing.org/default.asp?ID=j/qFh%60Bq&MenuID=o/v/GXks5BsOe9?7vTvOOQY12%60?caLWFIZI?m?GXdrEijX#22.1 - 22.1 " This is a quote from the preambule to Part 2 "When boats meet" of the Rules. All other parts of RRS apply - including, and especially Rule 2! Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: CurlyBen
Date Posted: 15 Nov 05 at 8:02pm
| All bar one of the oranised racing I've done has been tem racing with three or occasionally two minute starts - the normal pre race signals and flags are not one of my strongpoints! I know that you have no rights over a boat that is racing, but when two boats that are not racing meet whether they are under racing rules does make a differnence. When team racing we quite often chased oter boats down before the start (or at least tried to!) and how the rules apply can make a big difference there. The one minute bit was from the verbal SIs often given at the regattas I attended, and they did say the racing rules as opposed to the part 2 rules. I didn't think to check whereabouts that line came from, looking at it again it is obvious it only applies to part 2. I don't mean to sound difficult, but it helps to know I'm mis-interpreting rules! |
Posted By: damp_freddie
Date Posted: 16 Nov 05 at 10:00pm
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There is actually an example of this type of case given in my new rules book (in norwegian and english luckily) To summarise, boats not racing are bound by the usual maritime safety regulations of the country or region. A similar event happened, when the 'rules of the road' were not adhered to either. Howevr the committee found that they did not govern over , no police national laws and the protest was flung out - seems daft. No collisiion, just 'accidental' impedement. If no one else can be bothered, I'll look it up if you ask- in the USA i think |