505 foredeck in need of advice!
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Category: Dinghy classes
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Topic: 505 foredeck in need of advice!
Posted By: riding shotgun
Subject: 505 foredeck in need of advice!
Date Posted: 15 Oct 05 at 9:05pm
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hi everyone, PLEASE READ, ITS NOT AS LONG AS IT LOOKS tales of my old 505 are back and i am literally begging for advice this time, my 505 has a wooden foredeck, the laminate is lifting just about everywhere, last year i tried sanding off the lifting plywood and using filler to briong the gaps back up to the level and then repaint...........worked for all of 5 minutes!!! i now want to replace the whole of the foredeck i think!!?! how should i do this, should i just lift the other one of and try to bend new plywood into shape, should i try taking it back down to a solid level of laminate and then put a bit of wood ontop of that?!should i take it bak and firbre glass it, filler the lot???? PLEASE help!! there must be some experts out there....... i will put up some pictures for you to laugh at..... just to add to the mix i have the loan of a local workshop, since i have no space being a student, for 1 week, so i need advice quick thanks nick ------------- sail 505, live a little |
Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 16 Oct 05 at 9:52pm
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Take the whole lot off and put new plywood on. Its not hugely difficult. You will need a staple gun. You use this to hold down the deck while the epoxy is going off.
Its easiest to plane the gunwhales down to level with the undersurface of the foredeck and put the fordeck right across the gunwhale. That does leave the ply end grain open though so you have to take care to keep it covered with varnish so water can't get in. The grade one job is to replace the gunwhales so that the end grain is covered, but you may find life is too short. Again provided you are disciplined about varnish etc you can get away with exterior grade WBP ply for the foredeck: its about one fifth of the cost! |
Posted By: Johannes
Date Posted: 17 Oct 05 at 9:54am
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There are some repair/rebuild articles on www.int505.org. Myabe you could try to email them for advice.
Jan |
Posted By: riding shotgun
Date Posted: 17 Oct 05 at 10:29am
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ive been looking frantically through the 505 website and there is some
bits and pieces of info there, but nothing very specific so have been
finding it hard to find anything useful, thanks anyway. i like the idea about losing the gunwhales, i was thinking how i would be able to get the shape exactly write. will the staples go through the ply, its prob about 4 ply? o and i no this sounds a stupid question but the internet is so vast i cant seem to find a specific supplier of wood which would suit, any advice?? thanks so much and any other advice will be greatly receieved nick ------------- sail 505, live a little |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 17 Oct 05 at 10:50am
You're correct, virtually impossible for those of us who aren't experienced wood workers to get the deck fitting down snugly inside existing gunwhales, so best not to try.
For sure. You need a reasonable staple gun and of course long staples: 10mm would be cool. Finnily enough it doesn't seem necesary to get really long stables down flush with the surface of the timber, they seem to grip enough. This is dead handy for getting them out again (which of course you must do).
for proper Marine ply http://www.robbins.co.uk hold good stocks, deliver small quantities and so on. But delivery on small quantities gets on for doubling the cost which is pretty eye-watering for marine ply anyway! For acceptable exterior grade for a budget job then any decent timber merchant (as opposed to a DIY shop) will stock it. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 17 Oct 05 at 10:51am
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Water and Boil proof ply (WBP) is available at such well known boating outlets as Wickes and B&Q. If you want proper top quality ply (will look prettier and last longer, but good exterior plys are better now than boat building plys were 40 years ago) then Robbins timber in Bristol will deliver. I'd go for the WBP from Wickes, if you have one handy. I should think you will need 2 sheets for a 505 deck. It might be possible to remove the gunwales back to behind where the foredeck reaches to, if the screws will undo, then plane back the edge of the new deck to that edge, and put the gunwale back. Your crew is less likely to get splinters going round the front, then! Or...cut the new decks to the shape of the old ones, and accept the fact that you will have to use epoxy filler between deck and gunwale where it doesn't quite fit. My preferred way of fixing the deck is clamps, but you do need lots (screwfix is cheap) as you don't have to fill lots of little holes. You will need a pretty heavy duty staple gun to get through 4 mm ply, too. If you want a really quick job, screw it down, and leave the screws in... Hope this helps, and good luck! The only difficult bit is making it pretty, so if you just want it to work, its pretty easy! |
Posted By: Stingo
Date Posted: 17 Oct 05 at 10:54am
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Plane off gunnels as described so the top is flush to the deck
beams. THEN plane off the outside parallel to the hull but not
flush. You want to get rid of any curved profile on the underside
of the gunnel. Epoxy the ply in place as described. Under each staple put a patch of polythene sheet and a length of that plastic pallet or box strapping so you can remove the staples. When its all set up, trim the ply back to where you trimmed the gunnel to and bend screw and glue a strip of hardwood to form a new gunnel. Plug all the screw heads with matching plugs. Plane top edge flush with deck, bottom flush with old gunnel remnant. Shape top & bottom corners. Remove all staples, fill the staple holes. Prep for preferred finish. ------------- Stingo Alb #1554 |
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 17 Oct 05 at 11:17am
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You could try asking one of the Five-Oh lists, and especially the American lists - they tend to keep much older boats going over there. http://www.int505.org/moreinfo.htm - http://www.int505.org/moreinfo.htm |
Posted By: riding shotgun
Date Posted: 17 Oct 05 at 11:40pm
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guys this is amazing responce and i thank you so much, i now almost
know what i am going to do, the plan is to buy 4 ply from wicks, WBP,
plane or take the gunwhales off, apply glue...........NOW this is where
i need help, which glue, specific and where to buy if pos since i am
useless as am sure you've guessed............screw since i have an
abundance of screwfix screws from work, plane ply and paint now this is real idiot stuff so in your opinions what advice on paint, wanting black smooth finish hopefully, though may go for the wood option depending on time... It might be possible to remove the gunwales back to behind where the foredeck reaches to.................this comment, would it be easy to put gunwhales back?? once again thank you nick p.s. 3 days untill start and i will post result and pics ------------- sail 505, live a little |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 18 Oct 05 at 9:31am
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Only do the gunwales if it looks like they will come off and go back on easily! That would involve the screws undoing easily, so you will soon know if the idea is viable! If it does come off, then glue and screws will fix it down again. As for glue, either Balcotan (Robbins will post it) which is easy coz you just squeeze it from a tube, but needs a fair amount of pressure to stop the foaming pushing the joint apart, or Epoxy (SP or WEST) with filler (the place you buy the epoxy from will be able go guide you on which one you need) which needs mixing in fairly accurate amounts, but can be used for filling the gaps, too. I've used both, and neither have fallen apart, but as you will need epoxy anyway for filling (and possibly coating the deck) that is probebly the one to go for. Don't forget to waterproof the UNDERSIDE of the deck! Either with epoxy, clear primer (UCP or woodseal) or clear pond seal (G4 or V4) available from garden centres! You can do the top of the deck with it, too. Wood option takes less time than paint, really, especially if you go the pond seal route, as you can get 3 coats on in about 4 hours. Then you will need another coat of varnish (take your choice between DIY shop (blackfriars yacht varnish is good) or single pack polyurathane from a chandlers. If coating with epoxy, then something like ultravar 2000 2 pack varnish gives excellent UV protection, as epoxy degrades in sunlight. Wet sand back with 400 grit wet & dry between primer and top coats, and between top coats. Try Northampton sailboats website (sailboats .co.uk?) for all the bits, they are pretty efficient, but most on line chandlers will have what you need.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 18 Oct 05 at 10:09am
SP Systems SP106 plus fillers. Any sailboat shop. I'd have microfibres, olloidal silica and microballons (the red ones). Put a coat of SP106 on what will be the underside ply before cutting it down (do it the night before when you get the wood home). Some kind of roller is really good for spreading it thinly and evenly. This will be your antirot on the underside. Take off the old decks, use a sharp chisel to get every trace of the old ply and glus off but as little as possible of the beams. Don't panic too much though if you do, fillers are your friend here. If you can take the gunwhales back all well and good, in my experience you aren't often that lucky. Otherwise plane to flus with the beams. Thinning them down as described is really cool, but very easy to trash tools on screws and things. Now the bit that will need thinking about is the centre join. Different boats do things differently here. If the beam is better than about an inmch and a half wide you have no problems, just butt the two pieces. Similarly if there's a central strip of wood just but them up to that. If you finmd there's only a very narrow beam and the ply wasnot butted but somehow joined at the centre, or else a single vary wide sheet (there used to be such stuff available) then report back and we'll tell you the workarounds. Anyway, lets assume its a butt join. Cut your ply so its roughly the right shape but two or three inches too big all the way round. Make up some SP106 with filler. You'll need about 30cc per side. The little measuring cups for cough syrup are cool for measuring, your chemist will sell you some. While you're down there get a box of disposable gloves, you'll use lots while doing this because you don't want to get epoxy on your hands and its fgar cheaper getting them there than sailboat shops. Mix up the glue then add fillers. I use about 1/3 each silica, microfibres and microballons. aim for kinda whipped double cream consistency. The silica makes it thick, the mircodibres make it flexible and the microballoons eke out the expensive glue, make it lighter and vaguely wood coloured. Spread the mix on the surfaces, you want a reasonable thickness but don't go mad, maybe jam on bread thickness. Do one side at a time. Put your ply in place and staple along the centreline. Make d**n sure its exactly straight. Now yo u have to get the rest down. Its probably a bit three dimensional so will be a bit tricky. I normally start by going down the front bulkhead, then work from bow mac towards missle and bulkhead forward. When the glue has gone off tidy up the centre line where glue has squeezed out so you can butt up the next piece precisely. Repeat with other side. Should now look something like this. Try for a tidier workshop though! 
In this case the join isn't down the centreline, but don't worry about that: its a special case. Now plane the excess ply down flush with gunwhales or whatvver is there, and replace gunwhales/add extra capoping if you are doing that. After adding the gunwhale capping its will then need taking down flush with the deck. Be *very* carful about using a plane for that, very easy to skim the ply which looks like hell. A power sander is safer. If you've put a beautiful new foredeck on you for sure wnat to varnish it. Two pot lasts best. |