505 running costs
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Category: General
Forum Name: Choosing a boat
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URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10911
Printed Date: 05 Aug 25 at 6:26am
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Topic: 505 running costs
Posted By: curiosity
Subject: 505 running costs
Date Posted: 08 Jun 13 at 9:53pm
I've been looking at old Fireballs and 505s, and I can't work out whether an old grp 505 would cost significantly more to run than an old grp/composite Fireball (by old, for both boats I mean costing less than £1000 to buy). Not talking circuit competition here, just club racing with an old hull, certainly not buying new sails, foils etc. on any regular basis. Do 505 parts break a lot, and if so do they cost a lot to replace? I noticed insurance is a lot more expensive for 505s than Fireballs. Oh and can 30 year old 505 hulls take the stress of the new bigger spinnakers? Finally, what's the practical minimum crew weight for a 505 i.e. what weight is required on the board to right it after a capsize?
Thanks
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Replies:
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 08 Jun 13 at 11:57pm
Thinking about the boats that were nearly new When I had an old 5-0 twenty something years ago, the boats that are now 30 years old should be pretty well made. They were sailed hard by big people in big weather and were not known for breaking, except masts in shallow water.
They are not particularly hard to right.
In those days, an old 5-0 was cheap to run, you could get secondhand sails easily.
The normal costs of covers, blocks, cleats can stack up on any cheap boat though.
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Posted By: curiosity
Date Posted: 09 Jun 13 at 3:09pm
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Thanks! As long as it's not likely to be as much of a maintenance money pit as a performance skiff, I'm happy. Another couple of questions: do the spinnakers get torn very often compared to the asymmetrics on boats like 9ers and performance cats? And are there any particular weak points in the hull to be checked on 2nd hand boats?
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Posted By: Contender 541
Date Posted: 09 Jun 13 at 6:33pm
In the years I have been sailing a 5oh, I have never torn a spinnaker.
I have seen one or two holes (tape repair0, but never anything more than 3 inches
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When you find a big kettle of crazy it's probably best not to stir it - Pointy Haired Boss
Crew on 505 8780
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Posted By: Ian29937
Date Posted: 09 Jun 13 at 11:09pm
[QUOTE=curiosity] Thanks! As long as it's not likely to be as much of a maintenance money pit as a performance skiff, I'm happy. Another couple of questions: do the spinnakers get torn very often compared to the asymmetrics on boats like 9ers and performance cats? [QUOTE]
I'm intrigued by your comment on skiffs. My RS 700 has been one of the cheapest boats I've owned, certainly cheaper than the fireball I had way back when, which was always breaking (pre Winder one design...)and I've never ripped an a kite. I just wondered what sort of problems you've experienced to prompt the question?
Apologies for the slight diversion off topic...
Ian
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Posted By: curiosity
Date Posted: 10 Jun 13 at 3:13pm
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The RS 600, 700 and 800 seem to be built a bit heavier, and a lot more solidly than 9ers. I've seen a massive number of 9er and catamaran sails go in different places for different reasons, plus a whole load of other breakages - 29er masts snap like matchsticks, I've seen 49ers with hull integrity problems etc. All on older boats, but by old I mean year 2000. In addition they just seem to accrue loads of extra little costs over boats; jib cars blowing, ropes wearing out quickly, foils taking on water, screws in the hull ripping out. They're built light and have big loads put on them, so it's not surprising as they age. Just my experience, I'm sure some people have had ones with no issues at all with them. But I know 505s are performance boats with big sails, so I just want to work out if the sails will spend their whole time at the sailmaker's. Obviously it is unavoidable that there'll be some cost involved, but I'm trying to avoid having too much.
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Posted By: Ian29937
Date Posted: 10 Jun 13 at 4:31pm
OK thx. I've always been a fan of RS which I consider 90% boats - ie 90% of the performance but a lot easier to sail and it appears a lot cheaper to run. They're not bullet proof, but pretty good imho.
Good luck with the fireball/505 hunt. I think the fb is a great boat and probably simpler and more robust, particularly if you can find an early Winder.
Cheers
ian
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Posted By: curiosity
Date Posted: 10 Jun 13 at 4:43pm
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Great, thanks! Same view on RS, nice, well-built boats!
Another question for those who've sailed them: are Fireballs significantly worse on the sea? I've seen it suggested that 505s are much better/drier on choppy water. And are chute Fireballs significantly worse on the sea than Fireballs with spinnaker bags?
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Posted By: Ian29937
Date Posted: 10 Jun 13 at 5:20pm
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Fireball is great on the sea but is a wet boat - avoid chutes as they just suck up the water... It was the reason most of the fleet moved back to bags.
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Posted By: curiosity
Date Posted: 11 Jun 13 at 2:03pm
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Thanks! Is it possible to retrofit bags to a chute Fireball and then put a cap on the chute? Or does a Fireball need to have the holes in the fore deck just behind the mast to take bags?
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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 11 Jun 13 at 4:29pm
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You can fit the bags wherever you like but to get a neat fit that is easy to use you are likely to need to get your jigsaw out.
When we sailed our old (1970's vintage) boat on the sea the water in the chute was not too bad. You can make a cover that is held over by a bit of shock cord to keep the worst of the water out.
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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74
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Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 11 Jun 13 at 5:22pm
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505 will offer a lot of bang for your buck. However be careful with some of the older boats. check the mast hog as if water has been left in the hull this can rot and cause catastrophic failure. Also on some of the older boats check the side tanks as they can crack at the join with the floor and go oft where the role round inwards. This is very hard to fix properly and not cheap. As has already been said there are allot of fittings which are not cheap when they start to fail. You can also upgrade to a 6m monster kite faily easily however you may need to fit tweekers or upper shrouds as the kite take off point is obviously a metre higher up the mast and above the hounds so without them you run a significant chance of popping the mast.
We tore a monster kite on our boat but thats because my crew used brute force to try and recover the kite after a swim (5oh crews for you) we never tore a kite other than by doing this. Due to the nature of the fleet there are always sails going cheap so you can run a 5oh fairly cheaply.
Thats said our boat cost us a load of money to keep going, as it was just the wrong age, as such i was constantly having to upgrade to try and keep up with the fleet (albeit the biggest reason we struggled was our weight and ability) One thing i will say is it is probably the best boat you will ever own and certainly the most fun i have ever had in bog wind and Waves, you will be out in a 5oh when the 9ers or skiffs will be 'bimbling'
Hope that helps - Russ ex 505 owner
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Posted By: curiosity
Date Posted: 11 Jun 13 at 5:49pm
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Again, many thanks to both of you!
Jeffers - would that cover be used when chute is replaced by bags, or are you saying the chute can have a cover that pops off on hoists?
Russ - What weight were you sailing it with? And what number was your boat?
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Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 11 Jun 13 at 6:56pm
We sailed with about 30 stone plus at the time, which in my opinion is too much. Unless 20 of that weight is in the front end (it wasnt) our boat was 8526, one of the newer hull shape Rondars. Nothinfg wrong with the boat at all, but when you start adding up the cost of twin poles new rages, high aspect rudders and looking to convert to high aspect gybing boards it was starting to get pricey. I think i spent about £7500 in total including the purchase of the boat. and sold it for £6k ish (i think that was the numbers) we were on course for about a top 15 or 20 place of a 40 boat nationals in her but had a breakage on the last day so had to carry a load of DNF's
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Posted By: Ian29937
Date Posted: 11 Jun 13 at 11:18pm
Originally posted by curiosity
Thanks! Is it possible to retrofit bags to a chute Fireball and then put a cap on the chute? Or does a Fireball need to have the holes in the fore deck just behind the mast to take bags? |
It depends on the layout of the deck as there is quite a lot of flexibility allowed by the rules - some boats needed the holes cutting, others had the back of the foredeck scalloped to allow a semi-circular bag to be fitted.
The chute covers were triangle shaped pieces of nylon, fixed across the bow with the back corner held by elastic. You had to pull the kite past the side of the cover when you hoisted. Ours always snagged the kite and didn't really stop the water too well. 20kg of water trapped in a kite isn't fast and doesn't make for a fast hoist.
If a boat had a chute, I'd try it first as depending on the venue, you might be able to keep it dry (beware - this used to become the main objective on the beat rather than sailing fast) You could then just fit bags and leave the chute open (all water just passes through and down the bailer), or fix a permanent cover on the chute, or even remove the chute completely...
Ian
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Posted By: curiosity
Date Posted: 12 Jun 13 at 4:16pm
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Russ - Are all those kinds of boat upgrades big things that made you go from say 35th to 15th, or are they finer things that would lift you by just a few places having made it most of the way on sailing skill alone? Any ideas what a minimum semi-competitive crew weight would be for a 505?
Ian - Sounds like it might be best for me just to wait for a bags boat to come up then, as I sail in quite choppy waters with lots of water coming over the front and I'm not sure I trust myself with a jigsaw and a boat! Thank you very much for the advice though!
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Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 12 Jun 13 at 10:22pm
Welll yes and no really, my biggest step up was sailing with a really sh*t hot helm (nut on the end of the tiller) however the switch to twin pole was revolutionary for me and made us much faster down wind. I was fairly early on in the Uk conversion terms mind you, most boats now have it. I would say crew weight you want a helm about 10 stone and a crew about 6ft 2 and about 15-16 stone ideally. but you can get away with being lighter as the rig is so infinitely controllable!
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