skipper 12 weight, and other suggestions?
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Topic: skipper 12 weight, and other suggestions?
Posted By: gjs
Subject: skipper 12 weight, and other suggestions?
Date Posted: 06 Jun 13 at 2:56am
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Does anyone know the weight of a Skipper 12? I'm new to sailing (second year) and would like to get a boat that is stable and has a high boom which the Skippers seem to be. They look like they are easy to rig too, as well as being cheap to buy.
I am likely to be sailing single handed most of the time hence wondering about the weight of them. I dont want a light boat that will be tipping about all the time, so happy for a boat to be on the larger side but not too heavy to drag out on my own. I trained in and have since been using a club GP14 which i enjoy for the stability, high boom and space, but could do with something a bit lighter for sailing singlehanded. Ive been trying to work out what would be suitable for a while now. I was hoping to find a decent sized single hander, but cant seem to find any that has a high boom and not tippy. I dont want a racing type boat - more cruising style really. Perhaps what im looking for doesnt exist! So the other angle is to find a double hander that can be sailed single handed. Im 100kg with problems with one of my feet, hence wanting a stable boat with high boom so i dont have to keep ducking or jumping about! Any thoughts on the weight of the Skipper 12 (or 14) ,or suggestions for a boat would be most appreciated. Regards, Greg |
Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 06 Jun 13 at 10:35am
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Weight of a Skipper 12? Lots.
There were a lot of the Skippers built, but they never had a good reputation around the clubs or amongst committed sailors. They were sold as beginners boats to people who didn't have a lot of experience. The major problem, as I recall, was that the rig and fittings were rudimentary at best. These boats are going to be thirty years old at the very least I should have thought. I reckon a more modern entry level boat like some of the better rotomoulds would be a better bet in your position: even the worst of them are far better fitted out than the 70s boat. I don't know I'm the best person to suggest which one though. |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 06 Jun 13 at 11:41am
I would have thought a Heron would do the job.
 ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 06 Jun 13 at 11:45am
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off the top of my head. 2 hander that can be single handed, stable and used widely for cruising. Gull. http://www.gulldinghy.org.uk/" rel="nofollow - http://www.gulldinghy.org.uk/ |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 06 Jun 13 at 11:48am
That was the next one I was going to post  ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: SoggyBadger
Date Posted: 06 Jun 13 at 12:23pm
Better that a Skipper anyway. A least you can put a decent rig on it. A Gull would be another possibility although the Gull's boom is somewhat lower than the Heron's boom. Being double chined a, Gull's a bit rollier than a Heron too. ------------- Best wishes from deep in the woods SB |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 06 Jun 13 at 12:30pm
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Both Gull and Heron are fairly small for a 100kg guy with movement problems. A GP14 with reefing points in the sail might work well. I have to agree with Jim that the Skipper range weren't the best fitted out boats around. Chances are that any available will be in a poor state - check the deck to hull joint, they tend to crack up, then when you heel over the boat fills with water... I can find the weight when built when I go home later, but it won't bear much resemblance to what it would weigh now. If you enjoyed sailing it when learning, though, I can't see any particular reason why not to get one - if you can find one, it will be cheap - provided you give it a good check over. Maybe take someone who knows a lot about GRP boats along if necessary to give advice. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 06 Jun 13 at 12:53pm
My rational for the Heron was: Yes small for a 100kg guy - but: stable, high boom, lightish and helm isn't that mobile so the small size would, I guessed, be a benefit. There is a inherent difficult in the problem i.e Larger, stable boats are not light. But yep it might be better to go the GP route as you suggested and live with the weight of it. And or modify a launching trolley to help with the weight, by adding a jockey wheel to it. ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 06 Jun 13 at 2:37pm
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Weight and stability do seem to go together. Maybe an Enterprise with a cruising rig? Bigger, but reasonably lightly built. One thing I'd suggest for the trolley is a dolly wheel at the front, so you are only having to cope with the weight of the boat on the slip, not on the trolley too. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: SoggyBadger
Date Posted: 07 Jun 13 at 3:18pm
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I would have serious reservations about pushing a beginner out single-handed in either a GP14 or an Enterprise. Even at 100KG (about 17 stone in human weigh measurements?) he would be nowhere near heavy enough in even a moderate breeze. ------------- Best wishes from deep in the woods SB |
Posted By: gjs
Date Posted: 08 Jun 13 at 12:38am
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Thank you all for your replies.
A Heron does sound like a good option. I was leaning towards one of these before and had a good chat with the chap on the Heron stand at the Dinghy Show in February and from that chat it seemed suitable, but wondered if they would be too light. I do see a few for sale, but only been seeing wooden ones lately which I don't want to get as don't have the time for the upkeep. But from the comments posted here, I reckon a GRP one could be ideal. One of the other options I was considering was a Comet - Duo, Zero or Versa. Comet make a lot of mention about being good to sail single handed as well as double handing, and they looked quite nice at the Dinghy show too. The trouble is that they don't seem to come up for sale much, but if anyone has any thoughts on the Comets they would be welcome. One thing I'm not sure about is if sailed single handed, whether they mean sailing with just the main or still main+jib. Another boat I came across was the Foxer. These look ideal - good sized 'sit-in' single hander. Again, they do not come up for sale (in the places I'm looking - apolloduck, ebay, boatsandoutboards and general web search), and when I have seen them they are quite expensive. One of the local clubs were getting rid of their Enterprise fleet at the end of last season and were selling them dirt cheap and for that reason I was tempted, but I kept hearing/reading that they are quite tippy - a lot of sail for the size of the boat, so that put me off. I did have a go at single handing the GP14 last year, which was okay although certainly a lot more to do when tacking/gybing. The wind was fairly calm then and I reckon it would have been quite a handful if gusty! As that was still a lot of work, my 'ideal' would be either a big enough single hander with high boom, or a boat that sails well with just the main which I can then put the jib up when I have crew (not very often). I'm not sure the latter boat exists. If it doesn't, is there a boat (perhaps the Heron?) that wont lose too much performance when on just one sail? Does the Gull have a much lower boom than the Heron? Looking at an advert of one for sale, the boom looks high compared to say, a Solo, but that may just be camera angles? Or does the design make it just not suitable for a beginner anyway? I was reading about the boat on the class association website and the Mark I/II sounded interesting as the mast could be moved forward for jib less single handed sailing. This sounds like a great concept but don't know of it being on any other boat. But please correct me if that isn't actually a good thing in reality!
Thanks again everyone for your input. Regards, Greg |
Posted By: gjs
Date Posted: 13 Jun 13 at 11:59pm
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Does anyone have any thoughts on the boom height of the Gull compared to the Heron and perhaps Solo? Does the Gull have a low boom, or is it that the Heron has a very high boom but the Gull's is low relative to the Heron?
I think that the Heron or Gull would be an ideal good choice - I'm wondering if the Gull would be better as it is heavier at 88kg? Would that weight be okay single handing? It is still well down on the weight of a GP14. Or does the Heron's lower weight of 64kg get balanced off by better stability? My current preference is the Heron, as from the comments here and what I've picked up, they seem to be very stable and have a high boom which is what immediately struck me when I came across their stand at the Dinghy Show. I cant find any GRP Heron's for sale but am seeing some Gulls which is making me wonder if I should lean towards one of those. But if the boom on the Gull is too low, it isn't very stable or the Heron weight isn't ideal, I'll hold out for a Heron. Are the booms low on the Solos? Some pictures I've looked at suggest it has a reasonable amount of height but others they look very low. I thought I'd mention the Solo as I think there is one at the club so I might be able to see it on Sunday to use as a bit of a reference point for boom height, and I see loads of those for sale so wonder if they could be an option. Thanks again. Greg n.b. For what its worth, I have found weights for the Skipper 12 & 14 - Skipper 12 = 65kg and Skipper 14 = 84kg, although I cant confirm as to the accuracy of those. But as Rupert mentioned it wont bear much resemblance to the boats weight now, but at least I know it wouldn't be any less than those! |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 14 Jun 13 at 8:46am
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The Gull and Heron are probably much of a muchness boom height wise, the Solo's is a fair bit lower. I don't believe anyone has ever called a Gull tippy. Hard to believe that the Heron is that much lighter than the Gull unless something has changed radically since I was familiar with both 30 years ago.
As for the right weight for singlehanding, that depends entirely on the surface where you launch: if you have to pull your boat across soft sand or shingle or up a steep ramp then you'll want a *lot* less weight than if you have a shallow paved surface... |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 14 Jun 13 at 10:50am
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The Gull is probably tippier than the Heron, but it is all relative! The more boxy shape of the Heron will give more initial stability, at any rate, so will wobble less when you climb aboard. Once sailing, not sure they will be much different.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 14 Jun 13 at 11:13am
And an Isle of Wight Ferry is probably tippier than a Nimitz class aircraft carrier, but the difference is not normally of practical interest... |
Posted By: kfz
Date Posted: 14 Jun 13 at 12:25pm
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Another factor that few have mentioned, when comparing is speed. You'll find the smaller Heron/Gull/Mirror Boats are much slower than than the bigger GP/Ent size boats. If your cruising in a tideway (and why wouldnt you if your a cruiser) then the extra power is handy. Kev ------------- GP14 Fleet Captain Liverpool Sailing Club http://www.liverpoolsailingclub.org/ - Liverpool SC |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 14 Jun 13 at 5:13pm
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In my view, a little 12ft boat like a Heron is going to be really quite horrible for a beginner who is on the heavy side, sailing single handed. When I was a teenager, we frequently sailed Ents, GP's and similar singlehanded up to a force 4 or so, which is when beginners tend to want to go sailing. Too small a boat will be dog slow and unresponsive, I would particularly avoid anything where the helm can't easily keep well forwards. In that respect olde worlde transom sheeting was an advantage. I'd also advise buying something that has a decent secondhand market so you can move on when your taste in boats develops. Skippers were not raced much, so many of them never had the sails replaced. Also the sails were 'basic' even by the standards of the time. A boat like a Ent will probably have better, more controllable sails, and good used sails will be available. A lot depends on budget, but remember a decent boat bought for £2k that you can later resell for £1750 may be better value than a £500 bargain. |
Posted By: gjs
Date Posted: 14 Jun 13 at 10:36pm
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Thanks for the replies - plenty of really useful comments which I appreciate.
I'm now thinking that the Enterprise makes a lot of sense. There seems to be far more of those for sale than the others, and seem to be plenty of bits and pieces for sale on the second hand market - sails, masts etc. They're not as heavy as the GP14 and I reckon I could take it up a slipway okay on my own. I've pulled the GP14 up on my but it wasn't a lot of fun! I reckon the Enterprise will be fine though. I dismissed the Enterprise as the first thing people would say about them is they are very tippy as they have a lot of sail power for the size of the boat, which put me off. But I guess I could look out for some cruising sails. I would like a rear sheeted boat, not just because that's how I learnt, but because that gives more room for crew/passengers, if I should manage to get some. At the moment, I've just been sailing on our local club lake, which is small but tricky with very abruptly shifting channels of wind/gusts. However, as soon as I get my own boat I want to start cruising, that is, once I figure out how I go about doing that. With the Enterprise, I see them available in wood, FRP & GRP. I read something a while ago about the differences between FRP & GRP. I understand that FRP is lighter but dents more easily, but GRP is more solid but heavier and takes on water more. Is that about right? Please correct me if I'm wrong on that though. Overall though, is one better than the other for the Enterprise or all sailing dinghies in general? I was thinking about the Skipper as seeing some for sale at almost give away money, so the thought process there was I could get a boat dirt cheap to fill the gap between now and getting the right boat, and I wouldn't lose a lot if that wasn't suitable or if it leaked more than a colander! Thanks again, this is all a great help. Regards, Greg |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 15 Jun 13 at 8:28am
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FRP and GRP are used inconsistently and confusingly throughout the industry and I fear are terms of limited utility because of that.
FRP is an acronym for Fibre Reinforced Plastic, GRP for Glass reinfoirced plastic, and of course the glass is a fibre. Fibres other than glass are only really likely to be fouund on more exotic craft, and in any case this isn't the crucial distinction. The crucial part relates to how thick the hull skin is and what sort of fibres are being used, and there are pros and cons to all construction. Basically there's a sort of gradation from the strongest, lightest and most expensive to the weakest, heaviest and cheapest. In the sorts of boats you are interested in you won't see the really top end construction, which is a sandwich of a thin layer or carbon fibre soaked in epoxy resin, a thick layer of foam, maybe even 8 mm or 10mm, then another layer of carbon fibre soaked in epoxy. This is the best way of building boats, and boy do you pay for it. Not necessary in most cruising boats. Next stage down is much the same, but with cheaper fibres soaked in the epoxy resin, then we come onto skins of woven glass fibres soalked in polyester resin. These foam cored constructions do have the big disadvantage that they can dent if bashed. Naturally how easily they dent depends on how thick the outside skins are and how light the foam in the middle is, but they all do it to a greater or lesser extent. Some people use the term FRP to describe foam cored boats, some use the term foam sandwich, and no-one using the term can be guaranteed to use it right. FRP can legitimately be used to describe the cheapest and nastiest forms of grp construction... Sandwich construction has really only reached the less racey classes in the last ten or fifteen years, although the exotica have been using it since the mid 70s. About on a level with this is really high quality plywood construction. When new its at least as good as the polyester foam sandwich, but of course as we all know wood is biodegradable and needs committed maintenance. If you get on top of wood maintenance and keep on top of it the workload is much less than people tell you, especially if you can keep the boat under cover out of frost over the winter, but if its allowed to slide it can go downhill quickly. Also after about 30 to 40 years the glues used to build wooden boats can get brittle and start to fail, and you end up with leaking joints that are really difficult to fix unless you take the whole thing apart and glue her back together again. This gets called a major restoration, and it rarely costs you much more than 10 times what the boat is worth! OK, next stage down is when it really gets difficult to tell what you are looking for. This includes all traditional GRP boats, and its a grade, not real divisions. All GRP boats have a thickish layer of a coloured material without fibres on the outside, called gel coat, which is there to protect the rest from water and look pretty, but has little structural benefit. Within that I like to divide things into roughly two groups, and you can get an idea of which is which by looking at the inside surface if you can see it through hatches or bits not covered with deck moulding. The better GRP craft are actually constructed with a sort of sandwich. There's a layer of fibres on the outside, then a layer of material called coremat, which is still glass fibres, but mixed with a special filler, then another layer of fibres, but its all soaked in polyester resin. Often the fibres, which you can usually see in the resin on the inner skin, will be at least partially woven cloth. The more woven cloth the better really because it tells you the original builder was spending money on materials. Boats built like this can be quite acceptable, at least in the heavier classes. It can suffer a bit when it gets really light. At the bottom of the range you have craft that are just made from a single thick layer of random fibres - chopped strands. There wll be almost no sign of any care in arranging the cloth on the inside. The worst of these back in the 60s and 70s were pretty appalling, and by now will IMHO be best avoided. Most likely all the joints will have cracked oopen and the craft will leak like a sieve into the buoyancy tanks and all but sink if you capsize it and there's no practical way of fixing it beyond carefully breaking all the joints, reducing it into its original mouldings, and gluing them all back together again. As you've probably gathered its pretty difficult to tell apart the good and the bad non sandwich boats. Your best bet is to look for a builder's plate and see what sort of reputation that builder has in the class. You'll also have gathered, with such a gradation of construction methods and lifespans, that if something is at a giveaway price then its most likely priced at exactly what its worth. Sadly the opposite is not true, and an expensive boat may just have a wildly optimistic owner... There also such things as boats you won't be able to give away at any price... For example, although Jack Holt was a really nice chap and a great and very influential designer, I wouldn't have a glass fibre Enterprise or Solo built by his company in the 60s and 70s if you paid me... The Skippers, I fear, also tend towards that category. All sounds rather depressing, but maybe I've overdone things in this essay. And lets face it, if you're sailing on a reservoir with good safety cover and the damn thing disintegrates then so damn what. If you're cruising through the Menai straits with your wife and kids and not another boat visible then its a different matter... |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 15 Jun 13 at 11:46am
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The problem with the early GRP Enterprises is that, in order to build them down to weight by the construction methods Jim describes above (the simple layers of strands with the gelcoat) the hulls were built very thinly. I've had to do repairs on some over the years, and there is almost nothing there. This means they flex badly, and by now will be cracking up and pretty much worthless. Oddly, boats can be worth les than nothing, as a trailer can sell for more if there isn't a boat sat on it! If you are in the market for an old clunker to do up, can be a good way of getting a free boat. Also, if the local tip is aminable to taking old boats, a good way of getting a bargain trailer. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: patj
Date Posted: 16 Jun 13 at 8:22am
| What about the Graduate or the Firefly? |
Posted By: gjs
Date Posted: 21 Jun 13 at 12:13am
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Hello All.
Thanks for the follow up comments including the useful information about FRP& GRP from JimC. I'm not sure about the Firefly and Graduate, as they don't seem to have seats. I'm looking to get a sit-in style boat. The information provided by JimC & follow up from Rupert about FRP, GRP & Enterprise construction has put me off one of those a bit, so I'm leaning back towards a Gull, although they don't have the sort of second hand market that the Enterprise has. Its just the points about the Enterprise construction concern me as I would be looking at buying an earlier boat due to budget, and I couldn't tell a good hull from a bad one (unless it had clear holes in it or was that thin it was transparent!) although I can see that the Enterprise would give better speed. As mentioned, the Enterprises are apparently a bit tippy. Would they be more stable like the Gull/Heron are reputed to be if they had cruising sails on it, or is it just the inherent design of the boat that makes them tippy? Thanks again. Greg |
Posted By: kfz
Date Posted: 21 Jun 13 at 8:14am
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Greg, I wouldnt be too put off by Jim's very good post, if you get an old GRP Ent or GP for buttons and it cracks after a few years then buy another. loads of em about and their cheap. Good idea not to spend a lot of money on your first boat anyway. Going to spend longer looking for a Heron or Gull to suit your needs Ents have quite a large sail area with quite a large main. I doubt you will be able to cheaply pickup cruising sails or sails with reefing points. Most are used for racing or race training. Also what sort of sailing are you doing river, inland, estuary? Enterprise makes a lot sense if your inland fancy a bit of racing too, i dont mind the odd dunking (Just put a Ent over myself not long ago! i do like sailing em, good fun, good in light winds). But if your more cruising or wilder water is involved id go for the GP/Wanderer/Mirror. Get a old tatty GP, loads and loads of em, get one with good trailer (so its balanced nice and you travel round a bit) and a cover, and jib not a genoa, reef the main and ride round in it for a year. Dont like it, then at least you'l know what you want then, sell it again for what you paid for it. ------------- GP14 Fleet Captain Liverpool Sailing Club http://www.liverpoolsailingclub.org/ - Liverpool SC |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 21 Jun 13 at 11:05am
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A few Pros and Cons re the Ent and Gull: Old fibreglass ents:
The older ones may still have a tear-drop or Petal shaped shaped rudders, these are pigs. Combined with the chines and a certain level of heel the tiller loads can get unmanageable and the boat will round up almost uncontrollably at times. With these rudders the Ent must be sailed flat at all times. A modern rectangular Ent Rudder does eliminate this bad habbit to a certain degree. Many older ents may not have transom flaps. If they capsize they can be a pig to empty particularly if the water level in the boat is higher than the top of the centre board case, as fast as you bail, the water comes back in through the slot. You need a big bucket. This may be true of other boats from this era. Cruising sails are an option, don't bother with the cruising jib though. The ent is more manageable with the cruising main but it doesn't make a drastic difference. The Ent will sail quite nicely on Jib Only though, even nicely to windward. When all other boats have been blown off the water and the wind is screeching the Ent will still be manageable on Jib only. This is probably true of other boats of this era. The older Fibreglass ents are flexible (as others have said). Weak spots to look for are: Where the front bulkhead meets the hull floor, this causes cracks on the hull exterior at this point, the hull can flex either side of the join. The cockpit floor has ribs running lengthways for extra rigidity, these ribs are made of wood under the fibreglass, they are quite often rotten. The joints between side tanks and floor are nearly always broken as are the joints on the front tank and the foredeck underside......easy enough repair if you like DIY though. Gull: Never owned one so I don't know much about these boats. I would imagine the early Fibreglass ones may have similar issues as the Ent......Many of them do have reinforced transoms for mounting small outboards, many also have rowlocks fitted. Consequently a much more useful cruiser. |
Posted By: patj
Date Posted: 21 Jun 13 at 5:41pm
| I think you would be best going to a local club that sails some of these boats and hitching a ride as none of them are truly sit in - you have to get on the side and hike at some stage especially if single handed. Many Fireflies have full length tanks to sit on. |
Posted By: sawman
Date Posted: 22 Jun 13 at 8:52am
| OP, have you considered a Miracle. It fits between the gull/heron and Ent/GP. It is well suited to single handing and 2up sailing as it isnt as over canvassed as the ent, its not as heavy as the GP so easier to handle on shore, and theres a bit more space than the gull/heron. They have a reasonable turn of speed and an optional spinnaker for when you have a little more experience. I picked up one from ebay a couple of years ago for 200 quid (I have now learnt a number of new woodworking skills!) there is a plastic one on apolloduck at the moment. 1-2k will probably get you a pretty nice specimen |
Posted By: gjs
Date Posted: 25 Jun 13 at 12:54am
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Hello All.
Thanks for the further replies. Hello kfz - thanks for the comments. Not spending a lot on my first boat makes a lot of sense, as I don't know a lot about them so the less I spend the less risk I am taking! I have only so far sailed a GP14 during the sailing course last year and then a number of times after that. At the moment, I have just been sailing on the small but gusty lake at the sailing club and two-up (adults), we have had some fun keeping that from dunking us. Great fun, but with the sort of erratic and fast changing wind, it would be too much single handed when the wind picks up. I did have a go sailing the GP single handed but that was relatively calm then. It is quite a lug recovering it too and I need to be able to do so on my own including when my foot is playing up a bit. I think the weight of the Enterprise/Gull would be manageable, but I get the impression that the Enterprises will be too much of a handful on my own. I keep looking at them though as there are plenty about that don't cost a lot, so I guess I'd consider one if I could come across one for sale with cruising/reefable sails, although I take on board your comments on that not being common which I can see from the ones I look at on apolloduck/boatsandoutboards. Once I get my own boat though, I want to also sail in rivers, estuaries, harbours and yonder although at the moment I have no idea about how I go about doing that or where to go (that may be another thread coming up!). Interesting that you mentioned a Mirror - I have not considered one of those - are they okay for a big lad? I think a GRP one would probably be too much for the budget. But I think the mirrors have two mast positions which is appealing for sailing under just the main. The GRP version of the Mark 1 Gull also has this feature which again I like the sound of, but the gunwale on those is very narrow and I understand not comfortable for sitting on when hiking. Hello transient. Thanks for the information about the Enterprises with some useful pointers to consider if I should go for one of those. Your comments do suggest they could be too much of a handful for a newbie single handed. With the unpredictable and narrow gusty bursts we get, sailing flat is not likely! In respect of the Gull, I like that they are often setup for an outboard and have row locks. I aim to go cruising when I gain enough experience/confidence so those features would be useful. Hello patj. I think you're right, I do need to try some of these boats. I think there are a couple of people who own Enterprises at the club, but other than those I think there are mainly Lasers and some Solos which aren't suitable, but the club boats are only really GP14s (plus one Otter, one Pacer and loads of Toppers & Oppys) so difficult to try some of the good suggestions here. I'd love to find somewhere where I could spend a weekend trying all of these different boats out in one go! I'm aware that I will need to hike out a bit, but I'd like to have as good a sit-in setup as possible for pottering about/cruising and taking the kids out in. I'm not fussed about racing at the moment, although if I can get good at sailing, that could change. Hello sawman. Thanks for the suggestion. I did think about a Miracle and one of the instructors at the club has a wooden one, but the boom looks pretty low for a large lad to get under (with dodgy foot!), and that issue seems compounded by a lack of seats so would seem to be sitting higher still all the time. Apart from that, they do look quite nice (reading up on them suggests they are a handful in a gust), but GRP would be too expensive. Wooden Miracles do sell for very little money though - one for sale now on apolloduck in Kent (where I am) for only £275 needing a little work and another two that don't need work for about £450. I don't think wood is ideal though as I'm not a diy-er and haven't got the time for the maintenance. All the responses have been very useful in opening my eyes up to what is out there and what to look out for and consider, so thanks for this. At the moment, I am thinking the Gull (Mark 3) is the ideal boat. Does anyone have any experience of the Mark 1 GRP or Mark 2 versions? If so, is the second mast position (Mark 1 wood & GRP) actually a useful feature for single handed sailing in that - does the boat sail noticeably better like that than if the mast wasn't moved forward (relevant for Mirror too)? Also, is the Mark 3 a lot more stable or conversely, are the previous versions unstable? Until one comes along (just missed what looked like a good one on eBay) or perhaps a Heron(maybe too light?) or Comet Duo/Versa/Zero, I think I may need to consider a cheap stop gap boat, as well as seeing if I can try some other boats out. Any comments on whether a Mirror is ideal for a large person would be very welcome. Or should I contemplate a Skipper 12 but just as a stop gap to get me out on the water, or are they that bad they're not worth bothering about even for that purpose?! Thanks again. Greg |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 25 Jun 13 at 9:18am
My father built me one of the last wooden Gulls at about the time the Mk3 gull came out. I sailed both back then and I doubt you'd notice any difference in stability: I don't recall doing so. The Mk3 was designed specifically for glass fibre construction because the Mk1 & 2 didn't work well in the material. At lot of that would have been cost, but the Mk3 was designed specifically for glass. I don't know I'd want the Mk 2 layout with no jib in a cruising boat and it was never popular. I don't recall ever using the mast in the forward position when I had my boat in the 70s, and in any case that was designed to be used with a bigger mainsail with a longer boom. In many ways a cruising boat is better off with a jib because you can hove too with the jib backed if you need to slow down for any reason. |
Posted By: kfz
Date Posted: 25 Jun 13 at 7:32pm
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Im with Jim on this one, waste a time moving the mast. Never seen it done. Once you get the hang of it its pretty easy to work the jib yourself even on quite a large boat. You need to be well forward anyway when your solo. Most boats will handle and go to wind a lot better with both sails. A smaller Jib and Reef-able main makes a lot more sense (as well as being more seaworthy) than a boat where you move the mast for single handing. I have my GP setup for single handing (and with young crew which is basically the same thing) With an option of the small Jib and two decent slab reefs that are lined so i can pull em on at sea. If it starts getting out of hand I can reef in well under 2 mins at sea. On light days I can bend the bigger genoa (no spinnaker rigged but I have one). And off I go. Kev ------------- GP14 Fleet Captain Liverpool Sailing Club http://www.liverpoolsailingclub.org/ - Liverpool SC |
Posted By: kfz
Date Posted: 25 Jun 13 at 7:42pm
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Just to make the decision more difficult. If you want to go out and about and do a bit of cruising then you might want to pick a boat with an association with active cruising section. At the end of the day not gonna matter much really, just need to get out their build you skills, see what floats your boat. Kev ------------- GP14 Fleet Captain Liverpool Sailing Club http://www.liverpoolsailingclub.org/ - Liverpool SC |
Posted By: gjs
Date Posted: 31 Mar 14 at 10:32pm
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Hello All.
Just thought I'd follow up - after checking apolloduck/boatsandoutboards/ebay/Gumtree on what seemed to be a pretty much daily basis, I've finally got a boat, which is a GRP Heron. I was going to go for either a Gull or Heron, whichever came up first at the right price and not 500 miles away with a road trailer. This one came up, with a Snipe trailer and a number of sails (I need to get them all out in the garden and work out what they're all for but at least one main & jib and another jib/genoa that looks unused) and spare bits + only 100 miles away. It could do with a bit of tidying up - wooden trim a bit rotten at the front and it needs repainting - paint flaking from the hull and deck, but first things first, I need to work out how to rig it! It is a gunter rig which I am not familiar with. The boat originally belonged to the late father of the person who sold it to me, but he wasn't familiar with how to rig it to show me how, so it was a bit of a gamble but one I was happy to take bearing in mind the very agreeable amount of money he wanted for it. Perhaps I'll start another thread in the 'I've just bought a boat and have no idea how to rig it' section to see if I can get some advice. Saying that, I did have a go earlier and got the bottom section of the mast up, shrouds, forestay and then jib, but got stumped with the top section of the mast! Hopefully I can figure it out soon as I'm excited like a big kid at Christmas with his new toy and want to get out in it! Regards Greg |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 01 Apr 14 at 2:01am
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Gunter rigs are fairly simple really. There are variations, but most likely there's a track on the back of the mast and a slider on the end of the gaff. Then a foot or so further up the gaff from tge slider is some kind of attachment point.
You thread the mainsail onto the gaff and tie it off to the top. Then you tie the main halyard from the top of the mast onto tge attach point on the gaff, then engage the slider on the mast and pull the gaff up. Normally you tension the halyard as tight as you can so the gaff is rigid against the mast. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 01 Apr 14 at 9:08am
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It will al be pretty similar to to how the Mirror dinghy was, so it might be worth looking out for an old copy of Sailing the Mirror by Roy Partridge, though there is probably a fair amount on line, too.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: ColPrice2002
Date Posted: 01 Apr 14 at 9:50am
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Hi,
IIRC, the Heron has a similar arrangement to the Mirror (as |Rupert noted). You'll find the Class Association here:- http://www.heron-dinghy.org.uk/" rel="nofollow - Heron Class Association I'm sure that they will be able to help you a lot (you may need ot register/join the Association). Good Sailing, Colin |
Posted By: gjs
Date Posted: 06 Apr 14 at 9:10pm
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Thanks for your replies JimC, Rupert & ColPrice2002.
I did have a look at a brief guide with diagram for rigging a Mirror, but found that a bit confusing so used the head scratching & tinkering approach (I did read on here about a mention of a Heron manual that someone produced, but haven't managed to find it). I will look out for Sailing the Mirror by Roy Partridge though - thanks for the suggestion Rupert. However, after a few attempts I think I'm getting there with rigging it. Attached is a picture of my progress so far... 
The boom is not horizontal but I think I just need to hoist up the gaff a bit more as still at a bit of an angle. JimC, you mentioning the need to tension the halyard as tight as you can makes sense with this, as I think I do need to pull that up more to get the gaff right up against the mast and that will in turn bring the boom up to horizontal. As long as that is all it needs, then it is looking quite simple after all but it took getting all the bits out and having a play with it to work it out! ColPrice2002 - thanks for the link. I emailed the association to check if it still has an active following, and they have replied back to confirm there is a very active following, which is good news so I'll join up shortly and perhaps see if they can offer some advice on removing the flaking paint and repainting it! Thanks again. Greg. |
Posted By: Buzz
Date Posted: 07 Apr 14 at 3:23pm
| There is a Skipper for sale down here in Cornwall for £195 if anyone is interested. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 07 Apr 14 at 6:58pm
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Worth finding some battens to go in the sail, Greg - makes a world of difference to how the sail looks and works. You are quite right that getting the gaff right to the mast will help with the boom. Another place to go for advice on all things paint is the cvrda - www.cvrda.org. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: gjs
Date Posted: 07 Apr 14 at 8:25pm
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Thanks Rupert. I've got the battens, just need to stick them in. If it wasn't raining this evening I would have had another go at rigging the boat as I'm keen to get it up properly so I can tick that box and concentrate on the tidying up. Thanks for the link to the cvrda website, I'll check that out.
Regards Greg |
Posted By: SoggyBadger
Date Posted: 07 Apr 14 at 9:53pm
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Greg you need to get the gaff hoisted as close to the mast sheave as possible. Do that before you put the boom on the gooseneck. I'd also advise replacing the halyards with Dyneema to minimise the stretch.
------------- Best wishes from deep in the woods SB |
Posted By: gjs
Date Posted: 22 May 14 at 12:18am
Thanks for this SoggyBadger. I've managed to get the gaff hoisted right up against the mast which in turn means the boom goes up nice and horizontal. I've got the sails up and all looks good. I just need to work out how the mainsheet goes from the boom through the block on the transom back to the helm. I'll look into Dyneema as I guess that this type of setup could lead to some stretch in the halyards. I do wonder if they do sag a tad as the gaff looks like it drops a touch after I tie it off, so if that is the case then the Dyneema could sort that - cheers for the suggestion. After that, I need to work out what all the different sails that came with the boat are for - it came with a number of them! And also then start tidying it up! I'll see if anyone can offer any suggestions for that in a new topic. Regards, Greg |