ISO Buzz Sucessor
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1074
Printed Date: 14 Aug 25 at 8:46pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: ISO Buzz Sucessor
Posted By: Shingle
Subject: ISO Buzz Sucessor
Date Posted: 03 Oct 05 at 2:24pm
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Isn't it about time a mainstream builder bought out a sucessor to the ISO or Buzz? The French actually consider these along with the Spice to be cutting edge, which I suppose they are after a 420/470. There's a real gap in the market for the right craft that has the ability to carry a variety of weight combinations. Not everyone wants to trapeze helm, but there's little current choice if you want to carry 26st (that's two up by the way). ------------- Drink Feck girls! |
Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 03 Oct 05 at 3:21pm
Isn't that supposed to be the 4 Tonner? |
Posted By: Shingle
Date Posted: 03 Oct 05 at 3:50pm
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OK if you've the skeletal system of bird. The majority of twin hand assymetric craft these days punish two guys of normal proportions, unless it's really honking. Even the 4000 is becoming dated. ------------- Drink Feck girls! |
Posted By: guytoon
Date Posted: 03 Oct 05 at 3:58pm
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That's always the problem of the renewal of the series. Here in France we have missed the apparition of new boats for many reason but mostly because you can hesitate between a topper or a RS boat which is more than 5000 £ and a 470 or a 505 you can find at 1000 £ around the corner. That maybe the reason why the spice is cutting edge (thank you for the franch bu I try to make people change In the opposite if you produce new series all the time and abandon old ones it's not worthy to by a 7000 £ boat to forget it 2 years later. That's obviously true that there is no RS 500 for example who could be an RS 400 with single trapeze. ------------- Cherub 2692 "NBS" |
. )Posted By: Iain C
Date Posted: 03 Oct 05 at 4:10pm
I've always thought there was a massive gap in the RS stable, as realisitcally the only people who sail the 800 in the single wire mode are sailing holiday centres! I'm sure they will have something waiting in the wings... ------------- RS700 GBR922 "Wirespeed" Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs" Enterprise GBR21970 Bavaria 32 GBR4755L "Adastra" |
Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 03 Oct 05 at 4:21pm
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I personaly have exactly the oposite opinion. Why push for new classes? chances are they will do exactly the same job as the current buzz etc but as the fashon is moved on it will leave a lot of people out of pocket and go a long way towards distroying sailing in this country. Any SMOD has a short lifetime but why kick it out the door before its time simply to replace it with an identical boat under a different badge? ------------- |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 03 Oct 05 at 4:22pm
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Answer: find a sailing girl-friend.
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Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 03 Oct 05 at 4:37pm
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The RS500 has been rumoured about - a single wire boat would fit the progression in their naming scheme ... But perhaps they are choosing to focus their attentions on the classes that they have rather than pop another one out ... or perhaps they are more interested in mass market boats like the Feva & Vision. Rick ------------- |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 03 Oct 05 at 4:41pm
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That remark may come back to haunt you! Actually the Merlin fleet have the right idea. Lots of sailing couples - who generally sail in different boats. Therefore helms and crews can have the usual free and frank exchanges of views (*) on the water without it impinging on Real Life. (*) My all time favourite being a crew - normally the most laid-back of guys - standing on the board of a capsized Merlin screaming at the helm "For *****-***** grow up!" loudly enough for the entire fleet to hear. |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 03 Oct 05 at 4:42pm
Like the Laser I suppose ... a good SMOD can last a long time ... ------------- |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 03 Oct 05 at 4:43pm
Wife swappers ... ------------- |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 03 Oct 05 at 4:58pm
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That's not the point. Women have always got Moral Right on their side while man is the Evil Oppressor. Them - sugar and spice and all things nice. Us - snips and snails and puppy-dog tails. It's just the way it is. That remark will be used against you. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 03 Oct 05 at 7:28pm
Until the sail area increase this year those of us who sailed single string were consistently beating those who sailed with two. |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 03 Oct 05 at 9:04pm
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Because those that were sailing twin were learning to do it.
PS we are still learning to do it, we just have more sail now so singleing starts earlier e.t.c.
------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 03 Oct 05 at 9:49pm
| No we don't want more classes, we want a bit more boat on boat racing. The 4K is a fine boat and and carries a wide weight range. There's not much wrong with the Buzz for the lighter people similarly Topper do a twin wire for lightweights and there's the 800 for the middleweights. I suspect the ISO is a great bargain for a high perfomance asymmetric. And there's all sorts of boats if you must have something different - I'm thinking of B14s, Ospreys, Fireballs, 5os and that's only touching the surface. |
Posted By: NickA
Date Posted: 04 Oct 05 at 1:12pm
Couple of months back I suggested an RS500 - and was inundated with replies that there are far too many single wire boats already. It's odd that none of them really hit the spot though isn't it? 3k too small, buzz & iso too old, 4k too heavy, 29er too wobbly (and full of yoofs). If only the 505 or fireball had gone asymetric. |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 04 Oct 05 at 1:16pm
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What would an average couple (say combined weight of 22stone) sail who wanted to go fast (back Cherub boys ... back ....) If the L4000 wasn't so heavy it would be great - knock 30kgs off and you have a great boat. Rick
------------- |
Posted By: Shingle
Date Posted: 04 Oct 05 at 1:48pm
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So who or how are we going to get to make it? We have seen with the 59er that good boats don't always guarantee sales especially with poor marketing. In addition, there are plenty of examples where hype has miss-sold loads. Ultimately to anyone who sails on the sea it is nice to have something that two people can pick up and lift out if necessary. I personally believe there’s a large number of people that would buy a well mannered single wire twin handed asymmetric craft, that gives you a wild ride if you choose. Two markets are the helms who don’t want to hike anymore, but can’t trapeze, and the trapeze helms who do it reluctantly because there’s nothing better on offer. I somehow think we’ll have to wait for LDC to churn something out when they decide, hopefully they’ll look some of the ergonomics on other craft before rushing out a product. ------------- Drink Feck girls! |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 04 Oct 05 at 1:53pm
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er... well despite my earlier post I don't think we need any more classes. What we need is the the real ale drinking carbon fiber loving epoxy sniffing Cherub clan to realise that if they could get Winder to do for the Cherub what he has done for the Fireball & Merlin it would be great. I expect a bit of stick for this post of course ... but I think the Cherub would be ideal with the right builder to become a mainstream class. Rick ------------- |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 04 Oct 05 at 2:00pm
He can build 100 tomorrow if he wants: its a free country: no-one's not going to stop him. Just pony up the cash for the registration and the certificates and there you go. Some builders of more traditional boats have found Cherubs rather challenging, but I bet Andy Patterson (for example) would be available for consultancy given a suitable cheque. |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 04 Oct 05 at 2:12pm
True ... but I think the class has to drive it ... do they want it? Pehaps they are happy with the current set up. Winder has turned the Fireball and the Merlin into a SMOD (almost ...) and it is doing great things for boath classes. But perhaps that is not what Cherub sailing is all about. Rick ------------- |
Posted By: Shingle
Date Posted: 04 Oct 05 at 2:42pm
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Perhaps taking an existing craft and modifying is the way forward. The cynic in me can't help but think if someone came out with new design that started to gain popularity LDC would simply use their buying power to compete against it with their own version. So for instance could you take a 505 put on an assymetric with carbon rig and have a winner? ------------- Drink Feck girls! |
Posted By: Ian29937
Date Posted: 04 Oct 05 at 3:49pm
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Following that argument, they would already have launched a laser 4000 competitor, but they haven't despite the rumours of a RS500 in the wings...... Why commercialise a Cherub - the 29erXX looks set to fill that gap very well and it's clear that the Cherub fleet are very happy exercising their freedom of expression! |
Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 04 Oct 05 at 4:26pm
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Why would you want to put an assymetric on a 505? The class has accepted the rule change to go for bigger kites and as it stands, the bigger kite allows her to behave like a skiff downwind, plus you do have the added bonus of being able to sail the boat straight down wind. Agree about the carbon rigs but have heard rumours that it might happen anyway. The Laser 4000 is a lighter boat than the 505, so why modify a 505 to compete directly with a 4000 when the general complaint that is arising is the 4000 is too heavy. My personal opinion is the 4000 is a cracking boat and fills the gap that this thread is trying to fill. If the 4000 was to go down the 3000 route, shaving a bit of weight off the boat, I reckon it would be detremental to the class racing and destroy the weight equalisation concept behind the boat. ------------- Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ - Helensburgh S.C http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 04 Oct 05 at 7:42pm
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Can't comment on the Fireball but Winder certainly don't have it all their own way in the Merlins; plus much of the variability in Merlins is rig and sails, not hull. So they are far from being a SMOD. |
Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 04 Oct 05 at 10:21pm
| It would spoil the racing but a 4000 with about 20kg off and a carbon rig would be a wonderful boat. As it is the 4000 is pretty good, the wing-wang pole and the big centreboard mean that it goes well enough in the light stuff and yet the modest sail area (if you can call 32 sq m modest) makes it a real blast in the heavy stuff. Weight equalisation makes it suitable for a wide range of crews and that tough hull means even the oldest is still competitive. Sadly being a SMOD it will always be the heavy boat that it is, but I have hope that one day it will get a carbon rig. |
Posted By: yellowhammer
Date Posted: 05 Oct 05 at 12:48pm
Frank Bethwaite says that the Laser 2 was 'dumbed down' from his original design by the Laser board at the time, to suit the mass market. Schools and university SAs still appreciate it's ruggedness. This legacy was carried forward into the 3000 and the racing ability of the boat was compromised from the start, compared to what could have been. Not sure the same arguement applies for 505, 4000, ISO, Buzz, etc. which are successful race boats in their own right (to varying degrees). Maybe all classes need to loosen up after a time though, to survive (a 4000 beater is bound to come along some time) ... or maybe they don't and just try and adapt to the changing pool of owners as the boat moves down market ------------- Laser 3000 @ Leigh & Lowton SC www.3000class.org.uk |
Posted By: Shingle
Date Posted: 05 Oct 05 at 1:35pm
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Ultimately it’s all about what you want from your sailing. An adrenaline rush in an ever more controlled world, a bit of competition or just simple fun. The Dinghy scene in the UK is in a bit of a dilemma do you choose to ignore progress? Because of modern materials old boats are still fairly competitive so don't get scrapped. Whereas if after 8 years they self destructed we'd be forced to buy new and hence more modern craft, things like self tacking jibs and carbon rigs would be common place. Look at the features in our cars that even 10 years ago were rare. Taking the 4000 at 10 years old, for instance where does it sit in it’s own product cycle? I believe a measure of how good an OD is can be gauged from how many are currently being built. ------------- Drink Feck girls! |
Posted By: Strawberry
Date Posted: 05 Oct 05 at 2:19pm
Your right, this has been mentioned before and every time it meets the same reply. The cherubs have atleast two builders who will make you an off the shelf cherub. They are Bloodaxe Boats and Aardvark Technologies! Please visit: http://home.freeuk.net/axeman66/cherub.htm - http://home.freeuk.net/axeman66/cherub.htm ------------- Cherub 2649 "Dangerous Strawberry |
Posted By: Chris Noble
Date Posted: 05 Oct 05 at 2:30pm
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3 builders who will make you one! DL boats will do one, but the suitability makes a flat pack one more viable, what happened to RMW are they still planning an off the shelf cherub? ------------- http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=561 - Competitive Boat Insurance From Noble Marine FOR SALE: I14 2 Masts 2 poles 3 Booms, Foils Kites/Mains/Jibs too many to list. |
Posted By: Strawberry
Date Posted: 05 Oct 05 at 2:38pm
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Oops, forgot DL. As for RMW, I think it's in the pipeline...... It's just a really long pipe! ------------- Cherub 2649 "Dangerous Strawberry |
Posted By: yellowhammer
Date Posted: 05 Oct 05 at 3:28pm
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What do you think Laser's reaction would be if the CA approached them with a wish-list of mods to the 4000 to modernise/improve it? ------------- Laser 3000 @ Leigh & Lowton SC www.3000class.org.uk |
Posted By: Shingle
Date Posted: 05 Oct 05 at 4:00pm
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It's the perrenial problem of forcing people to upgrade to stay comptative. How many 49ers had unfortunate incidents with rev5 masts to get rev9 because of the performance benefit? . Take something like a self tacking jib, could this be accomodated by the existing hull? I think a major make over is better than a half hearted one. How are 4000 sales at the moment as that could ultimately drive Laser into action? You have to be careful not alienate your existing fleet, but if that fleet only wants to spend 2-3k on a boat they're never going to buy new. ------------- Drink Feck girls! |
Posted By: boatshed
Date Posted: 05 Oct 05 at 7:00pm
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Can't see much point in making major changes to old classes. Look around and you will find the boats you want to create already out there. The B14 is well engineered, very light, has a carbon mast and nearly 50 m2 of mylar sails from any sail maker. It is competitive with a wide crew weight range. Perhaps its just too difficult to do well in this class for it to be popular and get mass appeal ? ------------- Steve |
Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 05 Oct 05 at 7:05pm
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I must admit, though ive never sailed one I really like the B14. Theres
definantly something cool about them, and thats even before they take
off at breathtaking speed for a non-trap boat. I have no idea what their nationals entries etc are like but they dont seem to be too popular. Cant understand why... ------------- |
Posted By: Iain C
Date Posted: 05 Oct 05 at 8:12pm
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The Fireball did! It was loads quicker downwind apparently, but obviously could not run or tight reach like a conventional boat, and it was just too big a jump to completely change the way the boats raced. I dare say if it had gone assymm the class would be dead now, as let's face it a Fireball is always going to be a bit rubbish as an assym compared to an 800 or similar. The test boat is still about (rigged conventionally again) and was at Abersoch 2004. It is wood, although it looks almost identical to a white Winder and is called "Plug" (no prizes for guessing what it was used for) and you can see the filled in holes in the bulkhead and foredeck where the pole lived. I've never seen pix of it sailing as an asymm though, would be great to see. ------------- RS700 GBR922 "Wirespeed" Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs" Enterprise GBR21970 Bavaria 32 GBR4755L "Adastra" |
Posted By: Chew my RS
Date Posted: 05 Oct 05 at 8:43pm
| Have you noticed how unpopular single trapeze dinghies are these days? Only the Fireball in top 10 nationals attendance, then L4000, then the Osprey with a mighty 28 (not counting cats or youth boats). RS seem to have made the idea of a single dangler totally unfashionable - is this because it encourages 'strange' sized people to win? |
Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 05 Oct 05 at 9:31pm
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I wouldnt say unpopular... just too spread out. Theres such a massive
range of similar single trap boats around, and people moving from one
fad to the next so huge fleets will never build up.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 05 Oct 05 at 10:14pm
But not nearly as unpopular as two string boats... Just did some sums on the YY attendance list Two handers without kite 431 entries, average 29 per class Two Handers with kite, no trapeze 787, av 40 Two handers, one string 395, av 28 Two handers, two string 191, av 27 Singlehanders no string 804, av 21 Singlehanders, string, no kite 109, av 36 Singlehanders string and kite 63, av 31 Or to look it another way, PT number versus total and average entries PY <800 total 31 entries, average 31 PY 900-899 231, average 29 PY 900-999 583, average 34 PY 1000-1099 966, average 42 py 100-1100 729, average 49 So actually the most popular boats are still what they always have been, moderate performance ones. Presumanbly the amrketing boys at Topper, Laser et al have finally spotted this, which is why there's a sudden stop in commisioning whizzy high performance boats and a sudden surge in rather slower ones. |
Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 05 Oct 05 at 10:23pm
| There's a couple of 2 string boats that are falling by the wayside, the Boss and the 5000 and then there's the one for lightweights Spice I think its called. If anybody wants a Boss or a 5000 there's a couple of good ones at my club that never get sailed, shame really - lots of bang for your buck. |
Posted By: Iain C
Date Posted: 06 Oct 05 at 12:01am
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Er, no, you're alright thanks... ------------- RS700 GBR922 "Wirespeed" Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs" Enterprise GBR21970 Bavaria 32 GBR4755L "Adastra" |
Posted By: Shingle
Date Posted: 06 Oct 05 at 8:46am
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Technology has moved on so if you could have near RS800 perfomance in a single wire boat that was light with well sorted ergonomics would it sell? B14's are wonderful, but demand fitness, and are easy to sail slowly if you do the wrong thing Having started sailing late in life and doing the circuits in the mid-late nineties, the sailing harcore seem to be 30-45, and these are probably the ones with the spending power perhaps this accounts for the growth in family barges. If you're struggling to pay off a student loan, you're probably not going to spend 7-9k on a dinghy, and hence go in to an older established class. ------------- Drink Feck girls! |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 06 Oct 05 at 9:24am
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Nah ... it's just that sitting out hurts your legs ... ------------- |
Posted By: Hector
Date Posted: 06 Oct 05 at 12:51pm
I sailed that prototype Asymmetric Fireball. It was anything but rubbish - the boat was well balanced and fast (in enough wind). IMHO the only problem with it was that it wasn't radical enough! The class wanted to know if a conversion could be done with minimum changes to the boat and at minimum cost. So for instance the kite was hoisted from the same mast sheave,the pole was kept quite short etc. The result was that in light winds, the standard FB kit was quicker - especially on a run. In a F3 it was significantlyquicker, but still L4000s etc were going deeper and faster. Obviously a Mast head (or 3/4 height) kite with a long pole would have been much faster than the version I trialled. Put simply, more sail was needed and to acheive that major modifications would have been needed. The class thought that a step too far and whilst I think that was a mistake, what do I know? They have after all just had 176 boats at a UK based Worlds so they're doing something right. |
Posted By: Chris Noble
Date Posted: 06 Oct 05 at 1:49pm
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lol so very true, and yet they were very good boats at their time, just not designed with future developments in mind ------------- http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=561 - Competitive Boat Insurance From Noble Marine FOR SALE: I14 2 Masts 2 poles 3 Booms, Foils Kites/Mains/Jibs too many to list. |
Posted By: boatshed
Date Posted: 06 Oct 05 at 2:18pm
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Chris, the Boss and L 5000. These were not good boats, even in their time. On the list of other new "Not Good Boats" would also be the ISO. ------------- Steve |
Posted By: Shingle
Date Posted: 06 Oct 05 at 2:46pm
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Margins must have been good for Topper in those days as you got excellent ISO deals by trading in for a newer one, and so stayed with the class. Even back then it was heavy, so when it did get trucking you knew it was extremely windy. ------------- Drink Feck girls! |
Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 06 Oct 05 at 5:08pm
Have to disagree with you on the point about the 5000 being high maintainence, we had ours for about 3-4 years and nothing really major went wrong with the boat. The only problem was she was too heavy and I reckon the rig could have been designed better. We've had to do more maintainence with the 49er over a shorter time but the sailing makes up for it! 5000s still are really good to sail and from our experience, pretty much bomb-proof. Can't comment on the Boss though ------------- Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ - Helensburgh S.C http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine |
Posted By: Calum_Reid
Date Posted: 06 Oct 05 at 5:24pm
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I remember an instance at my sailing club of overtaking a boss up wind in a 200 while it was twinning! It was a badly sailed 1 but to go that slow! ------------- 
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Posted By: hurricane
Date Posted: 06 Oct 05 at 5:50pm
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was the same with the 5.9 i have heard back then it was cheaper to trade in and get a new boat than buy a new main sail wish times were like that now! ------------- lifes to short to sail slow boats! RIP Olympic Tornado 1976-2007 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 06 Oct 05 at 6:07pm
Not really: difference between top and bottom of typical champs fleet is 20%... ISO a good boat? Not from the crew's point of view IMO - didn't like the ergonomics at all. |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 06 Oct 05 at 6:19pm
Didn't they go bust? ------------- |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 06 Oct 05 at 7:14pm
Offering a trade-in is a very good way of generating 2nd hand sales for new classes; it's OK as long as the boat is a long term success. I traded my frist 2 RS200's in and got a very fair deal and the 200 is stronger now than ever ... Than answer is "it all depends ..." Rick ------------- |
Posted By: simsy
Date Posted: 06 Oct 05 at 7:58pm
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The 5000 was a great boat for its time, and was the catalyst for the creation of a number of other classes, so less critisism about it, please. Umm, about the Boss though, have a bit less praise for that. The sheer size and shape of it, would have put off a fair few prospective buyers. |
Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 06 Oct 05 at 8:17pm
| Shingle, I'm impressed and hope I can still be dinghy sailing in my late nineties. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 06 Oct 05 at 8:56pm
Well, as far as I can see all the criticism that's levelled at the 5 tonner now with hindsight was levelled at it when it was new by those of us who had some experience of the state of the art in dinghy design. That was an advantage we appeared to have over the designers, who apparently thought that the then geriatric (the class has transformed itself since then and all congratulations to them for doing it) 14s had some resemblance to state of the art... |
Posted By: Andy949
Date Posted: 06 Oct 05 at 9:46pm
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im an ISO sailer, and i just want to say this why dont you all come to datchet on the 22/23rd where the 4000/500 and ISO/BUZZ/SPICE/BOSS are having a joint regatta!! The BOSS/5000 are probably going to start together, and the 4000 5 mins ahead of the ISO! Its promised to be a good weekend! ------------- A.Skinner |
Posted By: Chris Noble
Date Posted: 06 Oct 05 at 9:59pm
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would be very very interesting to see indeed, whats the expected turn out? ------------- http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=561 - Competitive Boat Insurance From Noble Marine FOR SALE: I14 2 Masts 2 poles 3 Booms, Foils Kites/Mains/Jibs too many to list. |