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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Rules Query
    Posted: 21 Feb 08 at 9:16am
Team racing is a form of the sport utterly alien to me, so I won't comment. In fleet racing I'd want to see fending off being primarily sideways, not pushing one boat forward and another back...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote andymck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 08 at 12:21am

I apreciate what you are saying Jim, but in practice, how you extracate yourself from a situation when you have been fouled is rarely taken into account, once you are rafted, you an take reasonable steps to prevent damage, including "fending off" seen it many times team racing, and never seen the fouled boat get penalised, whereas have seen the foulling boat get black flagged for doing the same.

 

Andy

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 08 at 12:20pm
Originally posted by andymck

then push off for the best start, ruining bargers day and no way you can possibly lose the protest,

If the evidence came up that W had "pushed off for the best start and ruined bargers day" then I'd be giving very serious consideration to giving W a DND under rule 2, even if I also DSQd L for not giving room, and at very least DSQ W under 42.1. 42.3.g doesn't seem to me to allow propulsion as opposes to getting clear, and 64.1b would not in my opinion exonerate W. And if the PC found that W had been given enough room, but hadn't taken it and had still breached rule 2 by pushing themselves forward and L back then L might be entitled to redress...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Calum_Reid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 08 at 11:56am
Recently I've noticed umpires giving alot more decisions in favour of the windward boat when the leward boat came in to close to them meaning that even if the leward boat doesnt luff when the windward boat tries to keep clear he cant.

If someone comes in right next to your leward quarter on a line so long as you make an effort to keep clear (personaly i would slam my rudder down and try to sheet on) then if there is contact i think a leward boat would be lucky to win a protest.

But then maybe i spend to much time team and match racing?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 29er310 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 08 at 7:55am
I wouldnt reccommend pushing off the other boat after you have collided, I once got black flagged for that in a team race eventhough the guy who hit me stop me dead.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote andymck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 08 at 11:48pm

Boat A is entitled to room, even to bear away and gain steerage way, and this must be given. In an umpired race boat B would be chucked as long as A started to respond as soon as the overlap was established. B might argue that if A did nothing she would have kept clear, but i think it would be hard to persuade the jury.

If you end up being the boat A, the best thing to have done was to have defended the space, but if you were caught out the best thing to  do is to make sure all the boats around are looking, and count very aloud the seconds till you hit, which of course you will, best to keep it under 5, then push off for the best start, ruining bargers day and no way you can possibly lose the protest, unless visiting a particularly malignant club.

As boat B just make sure you have enough room to leeward, in which to drop into, while making sure boat A remains stalled, but you must keep clear of him, if no space below, you could be in trouble, and unless boat A is a muppet in the protest room.

Won a cracking one in a match race because of this, because B remained above close hauled after the gun had gone. They were gutted! having thought they had got us bang to rights.

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Chas 505 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chas 505 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 08 at 10:42pm

I think if I was B, then I would want to overlap with a safe distance to leeward; and "hail" (although not necessary under the rules) "windward boat" or something, to clearly establish between parties when the overlap was made.

Then A should leave it a few seconds and hail again, that he now wants to luff slowly towards head to wind - and that B should keep clear ("Windward boat") ...again establishing a time lag - and space, so that that opportunity has been given at all times.

As B Luffs, there should again be clear time and opportunity for A to take action to move out of the way......so that if there was a collision, then they clearly could have been proven to have decided not to get out of the way.

Seems to me that the "onus" (sorry, old term I know) has more recently focussed on the leeward boat establishing their position and actions as the leeward party in that situation.

Old School team racers - like me - enjoyed the aggressive luffing move.  Although, when executed with a little more forethought (and probably skill) the newer edition must work just as well.....as who really wants to forfeit their position on a start line, inside the final minute?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote 29er310 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 08 at 10:14pm
A does not have to give way until there is an overlap so there does not have to be any preventative action.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote giraffe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 08 at 9:43pm

A must be able to prove that he tried to keep clear when he became the keep clear boat

B must give a keep clear boat opportunity to keep clear

Note the order of these comments

If A does not do anything, then it is pretty evident that you dont consider the second paragraph.  A must do something to try and keep clear.  Anything.  Then the onus shifts to B to some extent.  Doing nothing is not an option for A.  A decided to park itself where it did and must now deal with the conseqeunces.

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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 08 at 9:17pm
Yes but... I think I'd want very good evidence that A couldn't have kept clear by taking action earlier. A lot would depend on how close they were when B moved in. And of course if I found that A was moving backward rather than stationary...
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