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Sailing backwards

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4132
Printed Date: 28 Mar 24 at 9:30pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Sailing backwards
Posted By: Andymac
Subject: Sailing backwards
Date Posted: 06 Apr 08 at 8:12pm

When is a boat 'sailing backwards' actually sailing backwards? The relevance of my question is when wind versus tide/current, and speed relative to other boats versus actual speed over the ground (water).




Replies:
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 06 Apr 08 at 8:44pm

Relative to the water.  So if moving backwards in the water, you are going backwards, if while sailing forwards(clue it that even), yet relative to the land, you are still SAILING forwards.  



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Wanna learn to Ski - PM me..


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 06 Apr 08 at 10:19pm

See Match Racing Call Ump 2

Brass



Posted By: radixon
Date Posted: 06 Apr 08 at 10:21pm
Backwards sailing is when the boom is pushed out and you have wind on the opposite side of the sail.

Normally a fun race to do in the summer!!


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Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 07 Apr 08 at 3:30pm
The rules only talk about moving astern, not sailing backwards. Rule 20.3 only applies when a boat is moving astern by backing a sail.

Call UMP2 confirms:

1 that moving astern means moving through the wate
2. that a boat required to keep clear because she is moving astern as a result of having backed a sail  is still obliged to keep clear even after the sail is no longer backed.

Remember, unless rule 20.3 applies the section A rules apply. The boat is still on either port or starboard tack even when sailng backwards, and a clear ahead boat can reverse into an overlap, resulting in the previously clear astern boat, if she bomes overlapped to leeward, becoming subject to a proper course restrivtion under rule 17.1.

Gordon


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Gordon


Posted By: Matt Jackson
Date Posted: 09 Apr 08 at 12:50pm

So if I'm on the start line, stall (happens a lot in light wind) and start moving backwards (unintentionally) I don't lose all rights? But if I back a sail to do it intentionally I do?

Is that overly simplistic?



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Laser 203001, Harrier (H+) 36


Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 09 Apr 08 at 1:13pm
That's what the rule says! Note that whilst you may still have right of way over some boats you will also have an obligation to keep clear from others. Keeping clear is not easy when stalled and moving astern!

Gordon


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Gordon


Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 09 Apr 08 at 6:05pm
But if you stall, then aren't you deemed to be above close hauled and therefore lose your rights ?


Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 09 Apr 08 at 7:10pm
ive never heard that one before craiggo, is it something to do with proper course?

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600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it.
Also International 14, 1318


Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 09 Apr 08 at 8:21pm
Not sure. But if you luff above closed hauled at the start you lose any rights, its just a question of whether letting you sails out and stalling is deemed above close-hauled or not !

Sailing backwards and its effect on the rules has always caused me some headaches. I can remember trapping a competitor in between me and the committee boat at the Wilson Trophy and he tried to sail out of it by reveresing, I reversed to hold him and prevent him tacking behind me, and then when it became apparent that he was going to clear the transom of the committe boat I tacked off, gybed, cleared his transom and got a flying start while he tried to get going forwards. Others were trying similar tactics, but not sure if anyone really new where they stood with the results


Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 09 Apr 08 at 8:27pm

Originally posted by craiggo

Not sure. But if you luff above closed hauled at the start you lose any rights,

im fairly sure you can luff as high as you like beofre the start, there's no proper course so you can stuff people up as far into the wind as you like as long as you dont tack.



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600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it.
Also International 14, 1318


Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 10 Apr 08 at 12:26am
There is no such thing as a proper course before the start.
 When the gun goes any boat that is restricted by rule 17.1 may not sail above her proper course. The proper course on  a beat is usually close-hauled, although there are exceptions.
To be restricted by rule 17.1  a boat must have established an overlap from clear astern within 2 boatlengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack. This does not apply if the overlap begins whilst the windward boat is tacking.

So, if you hang back at the start and come in late, close to leeward of another boat as soon as the gun goes you must return to your proper course. This is not usually a problem in fleet racing but in team and match racing a boat may be tempted to continue luffing the windward boat. If they do they shold be protested and they will receive a penalty.

Gordon


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Gordon


Posted By: Calum_Reid
Date Posted: 10 Apr 08 at 12:40am
Originally posted by craiggo

Not sure. But if you luff above closed hauled at the start you lose any rights, its just a question of whether letting you sails out and stalling is deemed above close-hauled or not !

Sailing backwards and its effect on the rules has always caused me some headaches. I can remember trapping a competitor in between me and the committee boat at the Wilson Trophy and he tried to sail out of it by reveresing, I reversed to hold him and prevent him tacking behind me, and then when it became apparent that he was going to clear the transom of the committe boat I tacked off, gybed, cleared his transom and got a flying start while he tried to get going forwards. Others were trying similar tactics, but not sure if anyone really new where they stood with the results


Wooooaaaaaaahhhh you can luff to head to wind before the start if you want and dont loose any rights. Its only when you cross head to wind you loose rights and thats because you are a boat tacking. I could give you a rule number description of whats on and off if you want but its simpler to understand by what i just said

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Posted By: Worthy
Date Posted: 10 Apr 08 at 8:47am
Originally posted by craiggo


Sailing backwards and its effect on the rules has always caused me some headaches. I can remember trapping a competitor in between me and the committee boat at the Wilson Trophy and he tried to sail out of it by reveresing, I reversed to hold him and prevent him tacking behind me, and then when it became apparent that he was going to clear the transom of the committe boat I tacked off, gybed, cleared his transom and got a flying start while he tried to get going forwards. Others were trying similar tactics, but not sure if anyone really new where they stood with the results


I'm not sure of the exact details, but I heard from some top guys that before the start, if you reverse without touching your sails you keep your rights, but the second you touch you sails the rules say you are deliberately sailing backwards and lose all your rights.


Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 10 Apr 08 at 8:55am
Rule 20.3 applies throughout the race, not just before the start.

Gordon


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Gordon



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