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Retired or not

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=394
Printed Date: 28 Mar 24 at 8:57am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Retired or not
Posted By: john.d.knight
Subject: Retired or not
Date Posted: 17 Jan 05 at 9:35am
I had a curious incident this weekend with one of our youth sailors. As I approched the leeward mark I had a Laser radial close behind me, I had luffed to prevent him getting water and as such I had to bear away quite hard to give myself enough room to round the mark smoothly, in doing so the Laser took the opportunity to try and squeeze between me and the mark, not realising that I had gone wide to the cut in close for the beat. As a result the Laser ended up tacking round on the inside the bouy. I carried on up the beat leaving him to reround the mark. I rounded the windward mark and the headed to the next mark which was halfway up the lake, I could see that the Laser had sailed away from the leeward mark and was heading up the lake back towards the club, he then stopped at the mark I was heading for, when I went past he then started to follow me. We were both on starboard and as I reached the lay line for my next mark I asked him to give me room to tack as he was obviously retiring. He said he wasn't retiring and if I tacked he would call starboard. As you can imagine, I offered him a few choice words as to what I thought of his behaviour! In the end I tacked and he asked me to do a penalty which I refused to do. He then continued ashore and retired. It has raised a few points, When is a boat retired?, if a sailor deliberatly interferes with another boat and then retires what action can be taken? What do you do with petulant teenagers?

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Pain is just weakness leaving the body.



Replies:
Posted By: Phil eltringham
Date Posted: 17 Jan 05 at 10:03am

Interestingly enough this was in the last issue of Y&Y i think (if not the one before).  The new rules have just changed to help cleat this up, in that in now clearly states that a boat must keep clear if it is on a different leg of the course.  I am guessing that the laser had not rounded the windward mark and as such was technically at best still on the beat (or the leg before that if he had not re-rounded the bottom mark) therefore he had no right to interfere with your course so unless he was sailing his proper course to his next mark he should not have called starboard, and should have let you go.  Also if there was a bank approching you could have called for water for that. 

So in answer to your question as to when has the boat retired I am not entirely sure but I would suggest that in this situation that at leat once the laser has left a mark out he should keep out of the way of boat that are still racing.  The other point comes down to the rule on fair sailing, the laser's actions do not stike me as being in the spirit of this. 



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FLAT IS FAST!
Shifts Happen


Posted By: Ian S
Date Posted: 17 Jan 05 at 12:30pm

I would have thought you would have problems claiming the different leg of course rule unless you could prove that the boat in question knew they had a missed a mark out - in this case as the guy waited for you I think it's safe to assume he was fully aware of what he was doing.

As for fair sailing, well, this appears to be a deliberate attempt to interfere with your race and prejuduce your result, hence should be counted as a none discardable dsq I believe.



Posted By: john.d.knight
Date Posted: 17 Jan 05 at 12:45pm

The OOD spotted him bearing away and missing the mark out.



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Pain is just weakness leaving the body.


Posted By: Ian S
Date Posted: 17 Jan 05 at 1:08pm
Perhaps a quiet word about fair sailing is needed then, or ask sailing committee to put an article in club newsletter..


Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 17 Jan 05 at 1:15pm
I'm glad it didn't happen to me I'd be livid, but it does bring up another question.  Can I luff (or interfere) with somebody who is on the same leg as me but on a different lap?


Posted By: john.d.knight
Date Posted: 17 Jan 05 at 1:19pm
This was perhaps the most irritating, when I got ashore I went to see him and offered to shake his hand and said what happens on the water stays on the water. He just said he didn't want to talk to me about it and walked away. I had to do a long slow count to 10 to stop myself doing something I might have regretted! 

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Pain is just weakness leaving the body.


Posted By: Phil eltringham
Date Posted: 17 Jan 05 at 4:29pm

redback, the answer is no, it may be between the same two marks but because it is a different lap it is counted as a different leg of the whole course.  To be honest if someone is being lapped it is better for both of you to let the quicker boat past sooner rather than later, as trying to slow the other person down is not going to get you round the race course any faster. 

John, sounds like he is just throwing toys out of his pram, at least you beat him on the water. 



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FLAT IS FAST!
Shifts Happen


Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 17 Jan 05 at 7:16pm

Are you sure, and if so I think this ia quite a radical change in the rules?  I sail on a reservior and so a great deal of lapping takes place. In handicap racing its a race aginst time so if you can slow the faster boats it's good and in pursuit racing a fast boat might have to lap a Topper or Cadet 3 or 4 times to win.  I always thought it was their prerogative?

And then there is the question of what should happen at marks, should a starboard tacker give room for a 49er coming in on port - it could get confusing?



Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 17 Jan 05 at 8:19pm

22 INTERFERING WITH ANOTHER BOAT

22.1 If reasonably possible, a boat not racing shall not interfere with a boat

that is racing.

22.2 A boat shall not change course if her only purpose is to interfere

with a boat making a penalty turn or one on another leg or lap of the course.

 

There is, however, no definition of what "interfere" means. Is luffing an overtaking boat to keep clear air "interference" or is it normal tactics? I can't imagine calling starboard (between boats racing) is "interference". So what is and is not "interference"? I'm not at all sure what this change means. I suspect we will have to wait for some cases.



Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 17 Jan 05 at 10:47pm
They should have left the rules alone, there's about a 100 years of refinement thrown away for the sake of something "simpler".  Its actually a case of dumbing down and clearly leaves a lot unsaid, or am I being a grumpy old man?


Posted By: Blobby
Date Posted: 18 Jan 05 at 6:24am

Yep!

 



Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 18 Jan 05 at 8:39am

Originally posted by redback

Its actually a case of dumbing down and clearly leaves a lot unsaid, or am I being a grumpy old man?

First they made the rules "simpler". Then every 4 years they add another set of incomprehensible extras to fill in the holes the "simplification" left. The pre-1997 rules were clearer, resulted in fewer collisions and gave us better racing.



Posted By: bigwavedave
Date Posted: 19 Jan 05 at 9:04pm
I wouldn't say Redback is grumpy.

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Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 04 Feb 05 at 12:13am

OK here is a question for you rules experts out there.

You are in a handicap race on a Wednesday evening with a fleet ranging from Laser 4000's to Toppers on a small course. Average lap timing is being used.

Once the L4000 laps the topper can the topper luff the L4000? Is this legal or are they interfering with a boat on a different leg of the course?

What is the rule number for this?



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Bonnie Lass Contender 1764


Posted By: Phil eltringham
Date Posted: 04 Feb 05 at 12:23am
The topper may not luff, rule 22.2 (prev. page of thread).  The 4000 and topper are both to sail their proper course to the next mark and are obliged to obey the rules of part 2 such as to prevent a colission.  (if you are in the 4000 go high and wide and try not to get involved, if you are the topper go low or tack/gybe out if possible)  Its faster to worry about keeping your own air clean than trying to get involved with a boat of sinificantly different speed. 

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FLAT IS FAST!
Shifts Happen


Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 04 Feb 05 at 7:40am

Originally posted by Phil eltringham

The topper may not luff, rule 22.2 (prev. page of thread).

Maybe, maybe not. I think the conclusion we arrived at is that until there are some protests and cases, nobody really knows what 22.2 means.



Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 04 Feb 05 at 1:00pm
Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

Originally posted by Phil eltringham

The topper may not luff, rule 22.2 (prev. page of thread).

Maybe, maybe not. I think the conclusion we arrived at is that until there are some protests and cases, nobody really knows what 22.2 means.

 

I agree this needs to go to protest, but I think that the topper cannot luff as you are indeed on a different leg / lap.



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Wanna learn to Ski - PM me..


Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 04 Feb 05 at 1:46pm

The question is what is "interfering". The rules don't define the term. Whether a defensive luff to protect clear idea is "interference", none of us knows until there are some cases. If I were to guess, I'd guess not. I suspect what the ISAF means by "interference" is obstructing another boat e.g. one that is close to you in series points, purely as an aggressive move. Maybe I'm right, maybe not. Who knows, until there are cases?



Posted By: Win or Swim
Date Posted: 26 Feb 05 at 10:10pm

sorry to go back a bit in this conversation,

The conduct of that laser radial sailer who interfered in your race, and then spitefully wouldn't leave it behind on the water was appalling to say the least.  I'm an 18yr old racer, and have been club racing for three years, and I have never seen anything like that.  I thought that is completely against what we sail for, even when i've had real angry / agressive team races, we've got back in got to the bar and been best of mates.

If we carry on like this, then the risk of turning a 'sportmanship' sport into a sport with a reputation like football hooligans.

Please don't let our sport goto that. 



Posted By: mahany
Date Posted: 02 Mar 05 at 3:16pm

There is the issue that once a yacht has retired it is no longer racing and is just like any other sailing vessel where the IRPCS (International regulations for the Provention of Collisions at Sea) will apply when boats meet.

These do not give any additional rights to the racer or obligations to those not.

Local club rules could change this particuarly on confined waters, but on the open sea?



Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 02 Mar 05 at 4:02pm

Originally posted by mahany

There is the issue that once a yacht has retired it is no longer racing and is just like any other sailing vessel where the IRPCS (International regulations for the Provention of Collisions at Sea) will apply when boats meet.

Actually no. From the intro to RRS Part 2.

The rules of Part 2 apply between boats that are sailing in or near the racing area

and intend to race, are racing, or have been racing.

 




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