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Inside Overlap

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=359
Printed Date: 29 Mar 24 at 7:10am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Inside Overlap
Posted By: redback
Subject: Inside Overlap
Date Posted: 01 Jan 05 at 10:10pm

After many years of Laser sailing I have learnt that out-dragging other boats is rarely possible.  To overtake its best to use a leg to get into contention and then grab an opportunity at the next mark.

This is harder in high performance boats.  In a recent incident I gained on a 3 sail tight port reach with a starboard rounding bouy ahead. There's no chance of going through to windward since in a high performance boat you have to have space to leeward if caught by a gust.   In a Laser I'd wait my chance and get an inside overlap at the next mark but in a high performance boat to put you pole to leeward immediately kills your speed and you drop back several boat lengths.

Any suggestions?




Replies:
Posted By: Garry
Date Posted: 02 Jan 05 at 8:37pm
What about playing angles and going deeper followed by hardening up as you approach the mark? The other alternative is to just overlap to windward at two boat lengths and then slow downand slip inside as you force the inside boat in close out wide. Both options seem tricky and high risk. But even in conventional dinghies reaches can easily become processions, the solution is often to pick the right lane from the windward mark (high or low) depending on what other boats around you are doing.

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Garry

Lark 2252, Contender 298

www.cuckoos.eclipse.co.uk


Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 02 Jan 05 at 11:54pm

Garry, I think you are right we should have gone low right from the beginning.  If the wind had freshened or headed, both boats would have had to drop kites and we would have been in the lead.  If the wind had gone lighter or freed both boats would have kept the kite up but we might have been on a faster angle.  In either case we would have had the inside at the mark if it'd been close.  I'll know next time.

By the way, just for those of you with fast asymmetrics, if you haven't worked it out for yourselves.  Always overtake slower boats by going to windward if the wind is light and never go to leeward of a slower boat unless the wind is honking or you can go a long way to leeward.  Generally high performance boats are not any longer than low performance boats which means off the plane high performance boats will be, at best, no faster.  Take it from me that a Laser 4000 is slower than a Wayfarer if not planning, consequently trying to overtake, to leeward, with the kite up does not work.



Posted By: iansmithofotley
Date Posted: 03 Jan 05 at 8:52pm
Originally posted by redback

By the way, just for those of you with fast asymmetrics, if you haven't worked it out for yourselves.  Always overtake slower boats by going to windward if the wind is light and never go to leeward of a slower boat unless the wind is honking or you can go a long way to leeward. 

Hi Redback,

I think that this advice might work if the high performance boat is about to overtake, to windward, a much slower boat, but anyone who knows what they are doing, in a reasonably fast boat (on PY), who is infront, and is not carrying a kite would not let you get away with this and you would be luffed to the stage where your kite would collapse or you you would have to go to leeward.  In fact, I think that the same thing would apply if you were not carrying a kite but the boat infront, although slower on PY, was more efficient at pointing, as most high performance boats need to be sailed more freely to be faster.

Ian  (Yorkshire Dales S.C.)



Posted By: Garry
Date Posted: 04 Jan 05 at 11:21am
In handicap racing there is often very little point in having a luffing match with a faster boat unless they are going to sit on top of you.  As long as you're more than a boats length to windward or going very fast I would't bother luffing unless it was goung to be tatically advantageous (i.e. just coming into a mark).

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Garry

Lark 2252, Contender 298

www.cuckoos.eclipse.co.uk


Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 04 Jan 05 at 2:12pm
The trouble with that is if you let one boat roll you, the next one comes through while you are still going slowly and the next thing you know you are in constant bad air. I'd luff a faster overtaking boat if there were a good chance they'd go through to leeward instead.


Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 04 Jan 05 at 4:28pm

Yes, if you are going to windward you have to make up your mind early.  High performance boats don't have the manuoverability of slower boats and on reaches may have to bear away in any gusts so if you intend passing to windward it has to be by several boat lengths which means making the decision several tens of boat lengths beforehand.

The alternative is to go to leeward if this gives you the inside overlap, but you'll probably stick there and spend the rest of the leg sailing below your handicap - only really an option if the leg is short.



Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 04 Jan 05 at 4:34pm
When sailing a single sail singlehander in club handicap sailing its very important to cultivate a reputation for luffing boats that overtake close to you-) If someone overtakes within 1 mast height to windward then they are performing an agressive manouver that will impact the speed of the leeward boat. Luff them into the clouds once or twice and they learn to go to leeward or supply loads of room. If you're going to be sailing against this guy every weekend for the next few years its well worth sacrificing one race to train them to behave like gentlemen:-)


Posted By: Garry
Date Posted: 04 Jan 05 at 5:21pm
Sorry but I generally disagree, mainly because:

1. By the time you get to the windward mark most of the faster boats will be ahead. Those overtaking are likely to have capsized, gone the wrong way or have had problems.

2. If you spend 30 seconds luffing a faster boat that's 30 seconds you've both lost against any boat behind or in front of you.

3. For Anyboat much more than a mast length to windward (2 boat lengths) you don't have full luffing rights (definition of overlap). Anyway you are very unlikely to successfully luff someone that far to windward and going faster without anticipating early and going very high.

4. In handicap racing you are really racing against the clock. Therefore, it is more important to sail the shortest course in the clearest air.

5. Even in class racing a luffing duel can loose you several places.

6. Most asymetrics don't sail the same angles downwind as symetric/singlehanders, if they get their nose below you on a run/ very broad reach they can then force you higher than you want to be sailing (their proper course) and you won't be able to gybe out of it.

7. In marginal planning weather when the trapeze boats are blasting you can sometimes pick up their stern wave by luffing as they go past and get a ride for a few yards.

8. However if someone wants to pass within half a boat length to windward then I would luff - put the board down and take them to the cleaners!

9. BTW I have the same views on calling starboard and sometimes (though not very often) even overlaps at marks- it doesn't always pay to insist on your rights and sometimes slowing down is faster than pushing in, especially when there are big boat speed discrepencies.

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Garry

Lark 2252, Contender 298

www.cuckoos.eclipse.co.uk


Posted By: ChrisJ
Date Posted: 07 Jan 05 at 12:36pm

Back for a moment to the original question - how to overtake.

I agree you use the reaching leg to close on them. Then around the buiy you don't actually need to get water, what you need to do is to push them hard enough  so they make a mistake going around the buoy. If they are watching to see if you get an inside overlap, they wont be aware of the buoy coming up, so will turn too quickly and slow down. If they are worrying about the end of the first leg, they wont think about the start of the next (to windward and roll them, or to leeward and sail low and free).

 

Use the leg to close with them, then co-ordinated shouting from the helm and crew to put them off, then slip through at the start of the next leg!



Posted By: Granite
Date Posted: 07 Jan 05 at 1:28pm

For overtaking practice you hoists and drops, getting the timing for the drop exactly right and getting the kite in the bag quickly can easily gain quite a few places from those that drop early and waddle slowly into the mark or are late and usually make a wide rounding.

Some boats are fast off wind but slow upwind so often have to do a lot of overtaking down wind.



Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 07 Jan 05 at 3:10pm
Very good points in the last 2 posts.  Its not that its anything new, its just that a little discussion gets the priorities right.  Many thanks.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 10 Jan 05 at 1:14pm
I've always found (sailing a Firefly on a small lake where upwind I can stuff almost all the so called fast handicap boats, but get rolled downwind) that rather than luffing people, making sure I know where boats are and politely suggesting that I will sail them off the lake if they go above me tends to do the trick... If the boat is very much faster, I don't generally bother. They will be gone so soon as not to matter. And I can usually get past them again up the next beat anyway. Of course, overtaking in pursuit races is another matter!


Posted By: Rob.e
Date Posted: 11 Jan 05 at 8:52pm

In club H/cap races I rarely luff a faster boat, unless I think he'll take too long to pass. The quicker they're past, the less time they're slowing you! You get into a luffing duel, and find a Topper or mirror has beaten you on handicap....Sometimes a quick early agressive luff will persuade them to leeward, but basically the quicker they're gone, the better.

Or to put it another way, I agree with Garry!



Posted By: catmandoo
Date Posted: 12 Jan 05 at 2:43pm

One thing worth bearing in mind when being passed by a fasterboat downwind, especially an assymetric cat , usually the cat/other will pass to windward of you , this is not out of spite I assure you , rather consideration , to bear off below a boat sailing lower allready can stall the faster boat , slowing it down considerably and causing you and the passing boat maximum delay and you don't want a big sailed boat stalled to lee!

Similarily upwind , the course of least resistance is for the faster boat to go above , to go below then ahead and back onto course would give the slower boat ming loads of "dirty" air.

So sorry , it's damage limitation .

 

 

 

 



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Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 12 Jan 05 at 9:17pm
Originally posted by catmandoo

One thing worth bearing in mind when being passed by a fasterboat downwind, especially an assymetric cat , usually the cat/other will pass to windward of you , this is not out of spite I assure you , rather consideration , to bear off below a boat sailing lower allready can stall the faster boat , slowing it down considerably and causing you and the passing boat maximum delay and you don't want a big sailed boat stalled to lee!

Similarily upwind , the course of least resistance is for the faster boat to go above , to go below then ahead and back onto course would give the slower boat ming loads of "dirty" air.

So sorry , it's damage limitation .

Agreed.....

I get Soooooo annoyed when slow boats luff like crazy to try and force you to go below them (sailing upwind) when you are a boat length or 2 away from them - at which point you are committed to going above so you sheet in to climb higher and they luff even more (so slowing them selves down).  Why why why....

THey slow you down and so get much more dirty air.  I/we are travelling 2 or 3 times as fast up wind, just let us go.  Doh.....

If you force us below you, you get major backwinding from our sails as we go underneath you in your dirty air and then we climb back across the front of you wehen we get back into free air. 

Gone are the days when Cats don't point.  Learn this please.

[strop over]

 

 

 



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Wanna learn to Ski - PM me..


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 17 Jan 05 at 1:58pm

I have to say that it does pay to have a bit of a reputation for luffing people across the lake. It does tend to discourage them from trying it on. Once you have gained their 'repsect' quite often just a small course change to windward as they approach full on will be enough to persuade them to go off to leeward or at least keep well clear.

At my local club it does tend to be between the Phantoms and the Lasers and despite what everyone says I hate letting them go past to windward because you get their dirty air and you will lose out more then you will gain by giving them an easy ride through (to a point).

Although it is nice when someone in front does an extreme luff and you can quietly slide past both of them and get inside at the next mark.

Paul



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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 17 Jan 05 at 5:29pm

Paul,

[quote]I have to say that it does pay to have a bit of a reputation for luffing people across the lake. It does tend to discourage them from trying it on. Once you have gained their 'repsect' quite often just a small course change to windward as they approach full on will be enough to persuade them to go off to leeward or at least keep well clear.

But you are slowing your self down EVEN More buy forcing fast boats that point to go below you.  In these cases in clear air my boat will easliy outpoint most Mono's as I have 2 long thin plates in the water.  If you slow me down as I go above you wou will just have me there for longer.  If you do something real silly and I then go below you, you will

1, get a massive back wash from my sails as I go below you

2, even more dirty air as I then return to my proper course and then climb back above you - this will happen and so you get a double wammy.  If you just let us go we are out of the way in a few seconds.



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Wanna learn to Ski - PM me..


Posted By: Blobby
Date Posted: 18 Jan 05 at 6:27am
Assumes you are doing this upwind...if you are reaching at the time why would you then climb back up above the slower boat?


Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 18 Jan 05 at 11:22am

When reaching it's just about irrelivant for cats vs other boats without kites up.

We can also usualy point higher than othewr kited boats when we've got ours up too.

In any breese we are going sooo much faster we can jsut blast past and forget you.  Can be very funny when people do luff you as they just get filled up with water from the bow wave as we go past



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Wanna learn to Ski - PM me..


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 19 Jan 05 at 12:08pm

I still say it does pay to be know for luffing purely because it is your wind as much as it is theirs, if they want it they may have to pay a price (esp if they have a kite up....)

The usual situ for me though is versus Phantoms when it does pay to keep them behind for as long as possible otherwise they can just get away and the slaughter you on handicap (especially in marginal planing conditions I find).

Were there much faster boats racing with me I would expect them to be a long way ahead (obviously they may come and lap me...). In any case you do have to thin a little bit tactically and weigh up the advantages and disadvantages on a case by case basis (ie will you gain more or lose more...)

Paul



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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: catmandoo
Date Posted: 19 Jan 05 at 12:32pm

I see Jeffers , we may have been talking about scenarios in differing perspectives , you are talking of situations within handicap racing were performance differences are not so dramatic and also where you are racing the passing boat too.

My comments from an assymetric cat sailor on passing slower boats by the fastest and least harmfull to BOTH boats was actually in the scenario where we find slow boats who do not understand what we are trying to do when passing and who we are not even racing , ie not in our class luff like loons to stop us , only to worsen their overall standing in their fleet , a minor blip for us .

I fully realise that within your own class there are times when it is tacticaly advantageous to slow down faster boats WITHIN YOUR CLASS (and in fact within cats too) , but as explained in my posting above  and Scoobies  entries it is only to your detriment when trying to slow down boats (who are trying to cause you the LEAST interference)  that you aren't even racing .

When I say you/your  I generalise to those in slower boats and not in my class , I'm not saying you Jeffers propose such actions.

I will try and foresee such situations arising and try to avoid (as fastest for me ) but sometimes it just isn't possible , rounding leeward marks with short beat requiring only 1 tack to finish and a scattering of pinching single handers spread before you being a common  example .

We all have to get on with it.

 

 

 

 

 

 



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Posted By: john.d.knight
Date Posted: 19 Jan 05 at 1:22pm

Here's a quote from another thread in this forum. Which suggests that if you are lapping a boat then they can't luff you.

22 INTERFERING WITH ANOTHER BOAT

22.1 If reasonably possible, a boat not racing shall not interfere with a boat

that is racing.

22.2 A boat shall not change course if her only purpose is to interfere

with a boat making a penalty turn or one on another leg or lap of the course.

 

There is, however, no definition of what "interfere" means. Is luffing an overtaking boat to keep clear air "interference" or is it normal tactics? I can't imagine calling starboard (between boats racing) is "interference". So what is and is not "interference"? I'm not at all sure what this change means. I suspect we will have to wait for some cases.



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Pain is just weakness leaving the body.


Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 19 Jan 05 at 1:38pm

I'm not sure about that. What is "interference"? Are normal boat-on-boat tactics to maintain clear air "interference" or is "interference" purely deliberate harrassment of another boat?

The RRS glossary does not define the term and the ISAF casebook doesn't have any case related to rule 22.1 (the old bit). How as helms we are supposed to know what it means is a mystery to me.

 

 



Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 19 Jan 05 at 2:04pm

Hi Stefan,

I know Scooby sails a Grafham which is considerably larger than the lake I sail on. Were I sailing on  Grafham regularly my tactics would be somewhat different as you are right it would be much better to let a much faster boat through as this gives you the least amount of rsistance.

However the puddle I sail on has an area of just over 50 acres and you can quite happily keep a faster boat behind you by keeping to windward of them and ensuring that you get inside at the next mark.

It does make for some interesting tactics with plenty of opportunity to gain and lose places as on reaches the Phantoms do tend to be faster however down a dead run the Laser  wins out (and if the wind gets to F4 and above our Phantoms tend to struggle).

As I said you do need to weigh up each situation as it arises and always choose the option that is going to cost you the least and gain you the most (whilst racing within the rules of course, we are still using RRS2001-2004 as our local SI state thats what we use until March when the new SI's will be released).

It is nice to know that if you are overtaking someone then they are not allowed to interfere with you. However being a 'sportsman' in these situations is always welcomed as if they are racing hard with someone then it is always a good idea to try and not mess up their race.

Paul



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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: catmandoo
Date Posted: 19 Jan 05 at 2:05pm

Just found new  rule 22.2 myself too ,

 

you guys beat me to it .

Seems it would cover faster boats lapping slower ones and within same class .

A rya/isaf clarification would be useful as this situation arises often.

 

 

 



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Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 19 Jan 05 at 3:10pm
Originally posted by catmandoo

Just found new  rule 22.2 myself too ,

 

you guys beat me to it .

Seems it would cover faster boats lapping slower ones and within same class .

A rya/isaf clarification would be useful as this situation arises often.

Surely we'll have to wait for the first protest on this / and or appeal so it goes into case law ?

 

Will remember the it for the next time i'm lapping or double or triple lapping people and just shout "stop it you nasty man, read 22.2 "



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Wanna learn to Ski - PM me..


Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 19 Jan 05 at 4:35pm

The more I think about 22.2 the worse it gets. It is fine in a championship where there is only one class going around a course. But thinking about something like the Warsash Spring Series White Group: you have around 100 boats in half a dozen different classes sailing in the same bit of the Solent. Some are doing the same course, some aren't. You probably don't know what course another class is doing (and perhaps can't, because you are asked to keep well clear of the line and committee boat area before your start). So how are you supposed to know if a boat in another class is on the same leg/lap as you are anyway? It is fair enough to be expected to keep tabs on your own class, but how can you know what half a dozen others are all up to?

I'm sure some people sailing dinghies inland will face similar problems.

 




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