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International Moth

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=333
Printed Date: 29 Mar 24 at 2:01pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: International Moth
Posted By: Wave Rider
Subject: International Moth
Date Posted: 14 Dec 04 at 12:30pm

Hi,

In a few years i would like to buy a second hand international moth and was wondering a few things:

I obviously wouldnt start off using foils so are moths still fast when they dont have foils??

I am only about 75 kilograms so am i heavy enough for one (my sailing club seems to hardly ever have below a force 2/3)???

Are they INCREDIBLY hard boats to sail???

As they are a development class if you only want to use them for club racing and not at a hugely competetive level can you get some fairly cheap boats (if so what sort of price)

And lastly do things break easily on them because if things were constantly breaking i would not be able to afford to keep one going!

 

Thanks



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           -[Franko]-
Chew Valley Lake Sailing Club
           RS600 933



Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 14 Dec 04 at 1:02pm
Originally posted by Wave Rider

In a few years i would like to buy a second hand international moth and was wondering a few things: I obviously wouldnt start off using foils so are moths still fast when they dont have foils??


Yep.

Originally posted by Wave Rider

I am only about 75 kilograms so am i heavy enough for one (my sailing club seems to hardly ever have below a force 2/3)???


Yep

Originally posted by Wave Rider

Are they INCREDIBLY hard boats to sail???


Yep, but well worth the effort. (And much easier than they used to be with T foils, carbon masts and so on)

Originally posted by Wave Rider

As they are a development class if you only want to use them for club racing and not at a hugely competetive level can you get some fairly cheap boats (if so what sort of price)


Yep - see Moth website

Originally posted by Wave Rider

And lastly do things break easily on them because if things were constantly breaking i would not be able to afford to keep one going!


If you have a good one and treat it carefully they're fine. If you bash it round like a club Laser you'll have trouble. If you buy an old cheap one you'll get to learn how to fix things cheaply - there's plenty of support and help in the class, they're a friendly bunch. They're not hugely expensive boats to run on the whole.

Suggest you joing the Int-Moth egroup on Yahoo and check out the class website.


Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 14 Dec 04 at 1:09pm

Well I'm a failed ex-Int-Moth sailor. Quite a few years ago I bought a cheap old Magnum 6 (which was about the last "wide" design). It was OK in F2/3 and I never tried it in more. It was an absolute pig in light airs - no inherent stability and if you capsized in the light stuff, it was incredibly hard to get back on the boat without pulling it in on top of you. Climbing into the stern didn't seem to help either. I would have called myself a reasonable club-level singlehanded helm at the time, getting a few wins at club level in my Europe, but I found the Moth very tough. I rapidly concluded I preferred sailing to swimming and sold it on.

I would still love to sail one if I was in the position of putting the many hours in on the water to practice before even considering racing. But are they incredibly hard to sail? I would say yes, compared to the vast majority of other classes.

Are you heavy enough at 75kg? You are probably too heavy. I may be out of date, but around 60kg or even less used to be ideal. You really need to talk to people in the class.

Do things break easily on them? I would say yes. They are very lightly built indeed.

Price? You can pick up old Moths for a few £100 which will be sailable at club level. New boats don't have a long competitive life on the open circuit so they depreciate fast. Therefore second-hand Moths are cheap.

 



Posted By: Wave Rider
Date Posted: 14 Dec 04 at 2:02pm

Ok thanks,

 

Also you say how very unstable they are like most boats when you start travelling fast are they a lot more stable?????



-------------
           -[Franko]-
Chew Valley Lake Sailing Club
           RS600 933


Posted By: Rob.e
Date Posted: 14 Dec 04 at 4:11pm
If you fancy a boat of that type, why not try an RS300? Designed by a Moth man, they are the way Moths where before they got too extreme for normal people(IMHO). Prices are low and dropping, about £1650 will get you a good one, and they're bullet-proof. They aren't easy to sail, but I came straight into one after 12 years not sailing dinghies, and I came back cos I was too injured to sail boards anymore, so they're not out of reach! It's a nice friendly class, too. 75 kg is enough for the big rig, but within range for the small rig, which is much easier if you aren't confident. They rate almost exactly the same as the non foil moth, and they are so responsive and fast!!


Posted By: Doctor Clifford
Date Posted: 14 Dec 04 at 4:28pm
probably because an RS 300 is pig ugly!

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regards
Dr. Clifford

take two tablets twice daily


Posted By: Rob.e
Date Posted: 14 Dec 04 at 4:43pm

I think they look great! Try one some time, they Rock!

Well, sometimes they roll, or wobble, or nosedive, but generally, they Rock!



Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 14 Dec 04 at 4:53pm

Originally posted by Wave Rider

Also you say how very unstable they are like most boats when you start travelling fast are they a lot more stable?????

They are more stable in F2/3 than in F0/1. Beyond that, I never found out!



Posted By: Rob.e
Date Posted: 14 Dec 04 at 7:58pm
I only capsized the 300 in one competative race last year, and that was the winter champs at QMSC(gusting force 6), and I sailed quite a lot! It does get easier if you keep moving.


Posted By: Skiffman
Date Posted: 14 Dec 04 at 8:06pm

on the subject of international moths, how much is it to build a hull ofr one from carbon??? Im thinking next year of building one so I can use it in my A2 physics coursework!!

I was thinking of getting a National twelve or merlin mast or maybe even making one out of pre peg carbon. Then getting a windsurf sail.

Has anyone else done this, if you have how hard was it?

PS i dont know the design name but its the one were you make sheets of carbon foam sandwich then put it together afterwards.



-------------
49er GBR5

http://www.teamfletcherandsign.co.uk - teamfletcherandsign.co.uk
Team Fletcher and Sign campaign site


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 14 Dec 04 at 9:42pm
Originally posted by Skiffman

on the subject of international moths, how much is it to build a hull ofr one from carbon??? Im thinking next year of building one so I can use it in my A2 physics coursework!!


I was thinking of getting a National twelve or merlin mast or maybe even making one out of pre peg carbon. Then getting a windsurf sail.


Has anyone else done this, if you have how hard was it?


PS i dont know the design name but its the one were you make sheets of carbon foam sandwich then put it together afterwards.



You don't need to use prepreg to make a mast, you can do a wet layup provided you vacuuum bag. A mast is a very serious laminating job, best to do the boat first to get the practice.

For Moth Plans http://www.bloodaxeboats.co.uk - Bloodaxe Boats do a CD complete with building information, photos, tips and all sorts of other stuff.

For cost of materials you just have to join the Moth Mailing list, plenty of knowledge there. For How-Tos on construction etc, boats and masts, go to the Cherub Website http://www.sailingsource.com/cherub/chframe.php?menu=build - Tech Support section .


Posted By: Blobby
Date Posted: 15 Dec 04 at 12:29am
As far as I recall an Aussie moth bought an off the shelf 8m2 windsurfer mast sail and wishbone and used that.  I think the opinion was it was fast upwind and slower downwind than conventional rigs, but I could be wrong.  I think the Aussie moth site had some pictures...


Posted By: Matt Jackson
Date Posted: 15 Dec 04 at 12:52pm
Isn't the sail the same as a Cherub main? That would make finding a reasonable second-hand one easier and stacks better than a winsurf sail - 'Horses for courses' and all that.

-------------
Laser 203001, Harrier (H+) 36


Posted By: BlueMouse
Date Posted: 15 Dec 04 at 10:13pm

Here's a (definitely unofficial) moth class view:

Boats - the newer pro built ones (Full Force, Fastacraft, Bloodaxe, Thorpe) are all-carbon and pretty much bullet proof. If you're so inclined you can sail them in 30 kts and they won't break. These designs are broadly similar and have been so for several years, so if you can get hold of one it will still be very competitive. On the other hand you can pick up an old ply moth for a few hundred quid - although wider if it's got an alloy mast and no T-foil on the rudder it will be harder to sail than a newer one. As JimC says you'll get handy with the epoxy if you try this route, but it's a cheap way to get started.

Weight - 75kg is OK, some of the current UK regulars are around or more than this (no names, well at least for now...). You'd have trouble with the lightweights downwind in the light stuff but when there's wind you'd be quick. With moths though helm skill level matters much more than weight or boat design.

Sailing them - OK it's harder than a 'normal' boat but it's by no means impossible. It's a bit like learning to sail a windsurfer - you need to start out in a steady F2 to learn how to balance it, and only then move on to more (and less!) wind. Most experienced sailors in a decent boat can reach back and forth first time out under these conditions without too many problems. Basically you need to get the feel of using much more sheeting and steering to keep the boat level rather than moving your weight. I've seen a fair few people have problems though when they get a moth, get really keen and go out every weekend whatever the weather. So they go out in a gusty F4-5, capsize 20 times and give up cos they think they can't do it. But no-one can do that when they start, you have to learn the reactions in easier weather. If you're reasonably fit, have some sense of balance and stick at it then you'll get there.

Speed - so is it worth the effort of learning to sail one? Well...

Originally posted by Rob.e

why not try an RS300? They rate almost exactly the same as the non foil moth, and they are so responsive and fast!!

The 300 is a good boat but our experience is the int. moth leaves it behind in F3+. On a reach the light weight (under 28kg all up) means it accelerates way faster than anything else on a gust or waves - it's faster downwind than an RS600 in these conditions. Upwind in F3-4 you're slightly slower than the 600 but not by much - the technique is to foot off and go for speed with as much windward heel as you can. Also once you can sail it in the light stuff, in a real drifter you reach a point where the moth will pick up on a tiny gust when everything else just sits there, so you can have fun beating RS800s etc. on the water. Almost makes up for the pain in your knees!

 



Posted By: Chris Noble
Date Posted: 15 Dec 04 at 10:37pm
the handicaps on the 1990 to late 90s boats is amazing for handicap racing also.

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http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=561 - Competitive Boat Insurance From Noble Marine

FOR SALE:

I14 2 Masts 2 poles 3 Booms, Foils Kites/Mains/Jibs too many to list.


Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 16 Dec 04 at 9:28pm
Originally posted by Wave Rider

"Hi,

In a few years i would like to buy a second hand international moth and was wondering a few things:

I obviously wouldnt start off using foils so are moths still fast when they dont have foils??"


I'm not a Mothie but I sail against them sometimes and know many of the guys so the info below may help.

The non-foilers are really quick when well sailed. Down here in Australia, the Mothies reckon they should have a yardstick of about 100 (without foils) instead of their true 106. 29er is 100, 470 101, 505 97, B 14 96.5, Int. Canoe 92, Contender 106 IIRC

The top guys (triple world champ Mark Thorpe etc) do best in a breeze, when they can go upwind with things like 16' skiffs, LW Sharpies (19'er with yardstick about 97), and reach like stink; on a good reach they go through Sharpies, FDs etc. The Moth only loses out on the square runs, according to Mark.

I've seen Mark beat the 3 time world Flying Dutchman champ "Fred" McCrossin home after starting 5 minutes later. Mark shared the same start with 2 time world Contender champion Arthur Brett and the Contender didn't see which way the Moth went (in open sea and 15 knots or so). This is not a one-off but a fairly consistent performance with each class represented by multiple world champs.

"I am only about 75 kilograms so am i heavy enough for one (my sailing club seems to hardly ever have below a force 2/3)???"

Mark is a lot lighter; his brother Les (2nd in the world) is maybe 75-80 and wishes he were lighter.

"Are they INCREDIBLY hard boats to sail???"

The newer narrow Moths are MUCH easier to sail than the old Magnum-type fat skiffs. Hard to sail? How do you define that? I reckon they're harder than an International Canoe.


"And lastly do things break easily on them because if things were constantly breaking i would not be able to afford to keep one going!"

It depends. Good carbon boats seem to last. Thorpe's Hungry Tiger has won the last 3 worlds and looks to be in fine nick. I saw Chris Dey's Hotblack Desiato (which won the worlds about 5 years ago?????) a couple of days ago and it's fine; Chris is doing this year's worlds on it.

 

Thanks



Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 16 Dec 04 at 9:32pm
Originally posted by Matt Jackson

Isn't the sail the same as a Cherub main? That would make finding a reasonable second-hand one easier and stacks better than a winsurf sail - 'Horses for courses' and all that.


I had a long chat a while ago with the guy who makes sails for many of the top Aussie Moths (Rohan etc). He (Andy McDougall) was a former Moth worlds runner-up, a succesful windsurfer sailor, and a very succesful maker of sailboard sails.

Andy reckons that he has used many ideas from windsurfer sails in Moths, and the two are now quite similar. The windsurfer style fits Moths well, because they are very easily driven and have no planing hump. Therefore, the low drag/low power windsurfer style sail works very well for Moths. It wouldn't work with something like a Cherub, which needs power and can accept extra drag to get it. So Moth sails are very different from Cherub sails and very similar to windsurfer sails.


Posted By: fizzicist
Date Posted: 16 Dec 04 at 10:56pm

Like Rob E says - get a 300. it's not as fast as a moth but it's cheap, bulletproof, testing to sail but has enough stability to actually be useable in really lightwinds, the handicap is quite favourable and they're a top laugh to sail.

After ten years in Lasers, and having won a lot of club level series, the 300 has been a real wake up call - after 6 months in a 300 I have learned more than I did in the last 6 years of Laser sailing. It's a fantastic boat. Certainly has love it or hate it looks but it's a joy to sail.

I'd recommend a test sail in one anytime. I'm sure most 300 sailors would gladly loan their boat for an hour or so.



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Not all chemicals are bad. Without chemicals such as hydrogen and
oxygen, for example, there would be no way to make water, a vital
ingredient in beer.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 16 Dec 04 at 11:02pm
Originally posted by fizzicist

Like Rob E says - get a 300.



Now I like the RS300, and its a nice easy to sail club boat. But comparing it to an International Moth is like comparing a Ford Mondeo to a Ducati 900! Also sadly it looks as if the 300 is dying off.


Posted By: fizzicist
Date Posted: 17 Dec 04 at 12:22pm

The 300 had a tricky couple of years because LDC in their infinite wisdom sold as a boat that was really easy to sail and you didn't need to hike much. Which frankly, is a load of cobblers. It's demanding and you have to move your weight around a great deal.

However, it would seem as though boats are finding their way into the hands of keen owners, the class association although small, is very friendly and very keen to push the class forwards.

The best thing about the 300 though is the fact that it is great fun to sail and cheap. I paid £2000 for a two year old boat which is near new condition.



-------------
Not all chemicals are bad. Without chemicals such as hydrogen and
oxygen, for example, there would be no way to make water, a vital
ingredient in beer.


Posted By: 7BOS
Date Posted: 17 Dec 04 at 7:45pm
Originally posted by BlueMouse

Weight - 75kg is OK, some of the current UK regulars are around or more than this (no names, well at least for now...).

 

80Kg plus is a good weight, trust me. not much hiking needed upwind. How heavy was nige when he won the nationals? Point proved.

7BOS



Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 18 Dec 04 at 8:37am

Originally posted by 7BOS

How heavy was nige when he won the nationals? Point proved.

It might be proved if you actually told us.



Posted By: DiscoBall
Date Posted: 04 Jan 05 at 11:10pm
Fizzicist:  After ten years in Lasers, and having won a lot of club level series, the 300 has been a real wake up call - after 6 months in a 300 I have learned more than I did in the last 6 years of Laser sailing.

Yes... And therefore if you get a moth you'll learn even more...  Haven't seen any 300s anywhere for agea now and suspect the class will go the same way as the EPS.  The moths by comparison are on a major upswing and while £2000 might get you a second hand 300, it would also get you most of the way to an older narrow moth fitted with a hydrofoil kit from downunder.  And frankly it doesn't matter how many hours swimming it takes to master that, it'll be well worth it!

From the handling point of view, being a mid-fleet N12 sailor experience wise, i found being set adrift in a moth a challenge but could definitely see that it would be do-able to get the basics after a few weekends.  Moths are also rather easy to transport and move around the dinghy park which helps!!!

T


Posted By: mothball
Date Posted: 13 Jan 05 at 6:04pm
If you're looking for adrenaline, speed and hard work the moth is defenitly it. However, if you aren't prepared to look stupid sailing it and be laughed at lots in the beginning you won't succeed. I bought my moth in the summer and I still make many, many mistakes. I've worked at it, though and it was absolutely amazing to sail with the really good guys at an open in October. It's worth the hard work if you put the effort in. Also, if you can make some opens, it's really helpful. I was scared at first, especially considering I am one of 2 female mothies, but they're all really nice and the racing can be serious or not serious depending on what you want. All of the people were really nice. Go for the moth - you don't was a 300 trust me!


Posted By: Chris Noble
Date Posted: 17 Jan 05 at 11:06pm
mothball, what moth do you have?

-------------
http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=561 - Competitive Boat Insurance From Noble Marine

FOR SALE:

I14 2 Masts 2 poles 3 Booms, Foils Kites/Mains/Jibs too many to list.


Posted By: fizzicist
Date Posted: 19 Jan 05 at 10:09am

Discoball - I thought about a Moth, but at 90Kg there was simply no point. The 300 was the boat of choice because it was cheap to buy, low maintenance, has an absolute bandit's handicap when sailed well and can carry one of the widest competitive weight ranges going.

As for the class, well it's very much alive and kicking thank you and will be on the fat face circuit this year, just as it was last year.



-------------
Not all chemicals are bad. Without chemicals such as hydrogen and
oxygen, for example, there would be no way to make water, a vital
ingredient in beer.


Posted By: frankie_is_sad
Date Posted: 18 Feb 05 at 11:58pm
Are you sure you dont mean international catterpillar?


Posted By: John
Date Posted: 19 Feb 05 at 1:13am

The Fastacraft Moths are now all made with a narrow trolley and often have a two piece mast. With this the whole boat packs into a freight box that is just 0.5m wide. This make for very affordable travel costs compared to just about any other class. See you in Italy this summer I hope!



Posted By: stuarthop
Date Posted: 19 Feb 05 at 7:07pm

easy to transport then



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Posted By: bigwavedave
Date Posted: 20 Feb 05 at 9:59am
Looks like the box weighs more than the boat 

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Posted By: John
Date Posted: 20 Feb 05 at 10:17am
The box weighs much more than the boat but freight this size is always calculated on volume. Any other small dinghy could cost 3-4 times as much as moth to transport to regattas.



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