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New ISAF rule on quick release harnesses.

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
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Forum Name: Racing Rules
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Printed Date: 29 Mar 24 at 7:44am
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Topic: New ISAF rule on quick release harnesses.
Posted By: Matt Jackson
Subject: New ISAF rule on quick release harnesses.
Date Posted: 26 Nov 04 at 7:54am

There is a new rule proposed by ISAF about QR trapeze systems:-

 

'A trapeze or hiking harness shall have a device that can quickly
release the competitor from the boat at any time while in use.'

 

There have been a few important points made recently on the Contender (Yahoo) email group - some quite spirited! Although I don’t speak from an official position in the Contender association I think it would be useful to summarise (as I see it) here what has been discussed so the wider sailing public can also start a discussion on the subject. I suspect the same points will be discussed again and there will be a few people trying to scare each other with anecdotes about drowning but any discussion is good for gauging peoples views on unworkable or unjust rules (or laws) and mounting a campaign against them:-

 

1. People have been killed or had incidents where they could have been killed from entanglement with trapeze hooks - we now all know this and armed with this information we can make a CHOICE whether to buy a system which protects us from this hazard.

2. As a group we are well informed intelligent people who know why we sail and don't take kindly to unnecessary legislation - how much easier has racing become since the racing rules were rationalised a few years ago?

3. Entanglement incidents which pull a sailor under the water (by definition) have some tension on the hook - any quick release mechanism MUST be able to release with some tension on the hook to be of any use.

4. Contenderers on the email group are not alone in being opposed to this rule - our friends in the Musto Skiff, 505 and I14 classes are also discussing this.

5. The rule won’t come into force until 1/1/06 (if at all) and any class or club could delete the rule via the sailing instructions anyway – but do we want ISAF spending our association subs discussing this kind of rule?

6. QR harness system development is only just starting and the first generation to be developed will be expensive and not very good - as a product designer I know that designs are rushed to market to exploit a single supplier situation and only over time with some competition will designs improve and get cheaper.

 

Please note that in principal I believe QR harnesses are a good thing and I’m considering buying one for my next harness but I also believe I should decide when that should be. My objection to this rule is a ‘thin end of the wedge’ thing if we let this rule through then what next? Crash helmets? Back protectors? EPIRBs? All this drives up the cost and reduces the freedom of our sport.



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Laser 203001, Harrier (H+) 36



Replies:
Posted By: Granite
Date Posted: 26 Nov 04 at 9:14am

Question:

Does the rule apply for quick reliese from only when you are hooked into the trapize in normal trapizing positions? That would mean that a current hook with the rubber gromit removed would comply i.e a single action of pulling on the loop of the trapize unhooks me.

Or does it attempt to say that you should be able to releise from any angle that the equipment could take up difficult to design and certify! If you are saying that a harnes in its self complies with a rule then it needs to be certfied.

If we are saying that a normal open hook is not an effective quick releise then that would also rule out the ball and ramp method on the Bethwait harness which looks (I havent used one) like it would be better than current or quick releise hooks at preventing entanglement with other parts of the rigging such as shrouds or just getting caught on the deck of the boat?

 



Posted By: *GM*
Date Posted: 26 Nov 04 at 10:41am

The rule reads:

"40.2 A trapeze or hiking harness shall have a device capable of quickly releasing the competitor from the boat at all times while in use."

So I don't think that a normal hook would be legal (and I hope no-one actually still has the rubber grommit fitted!).  I don't see how the Bethwaite system can be legal either as it relies on not getting tangled on things rather than having a "device capable of quickly releasing".

I can't see any club or association being prepared to delete the rule via their SIs - if they did and there was an "incident" involving someone wearing a non-ISAF legal harness the lawyers would have a field day.

I don't really have a problem with ISAF legislating for the compulsory use of safety equipment (I've been involved with motor sport for a long time and there are rules requiring competitors to wear helmets and overalls that meet certain ISO or BSI standards there).  However, as Matt says, QR equipment is still in its infancy.  OK, ISAF have delayed implementation for a year and this has been on the cards for a while but I think they should have delayed making the use of it mandatory for a while longer.  And I think they have got it wrong as far as the wording is concerned anyway.  From looking at the minutes of the meetings at which it was discussed it seems clear that the exclusion of Bethwaite type arrangements was deliberate and I think that is a mistake - I'd rather avoid a tangle in the first place than know I could get out of it quickly once I'd got tangled!



Posted By: Lucy Lee
Date Posted: 26 Nov 04 at 11:03am

Well, I've been sailing trapeze boats for about 15 years, and all my scariest moments have come from getting my feet, clothing and buoyancy aid caught on things, not the trapeze hook.

I am certainly not going to sail without a buoyancy aid or clothing  , that would be really daft!

I agree with Granite that designing a QR system that would work in any circumstances would be very difficult. Most of the times I've been trapped I have pinned against the boat on my front, so getting my hand to a QR system on the front of a harness would have been impossible. Not getting caught in the first place seems to be more sensible...



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Fly Cherub!


Posted By: Granite
Date Posted: 26 Nov 04 at 12:55pm

The Rule States

"40.2 A trapeze or hiking harness shall have a device capable of quickly releasing the competitor from the boat at all times while in use."

I would say that a trapeze harness is in use while i am standing on the side of the boat hanging from it. Therefore the quick releise is for me to reach one hand up to the handle lift my weight slightly and the elastic pulls the loop out of the hook I let go of my handle and fall in to the water. I have releised my self quickly

Does ISAF plan to test and certify all harnesses? or would I if challanged to the conformity of the harness would I be able to show that I can release myself from the trapize quickly?

The trapeze harnes is not in use when I am floating in the water next to a capsized boat or even traped under the water by my hook (or boyancy aid or one of the straps or buckles) caught on some part of the boat.

I would say that using a quick releise hook could be more dangerous! Consider the situation where it is a rising wind you have capsized badly the hook has got releised (possably accidentaly through the button getting pressed) and even though there is an anoying bit of rubber on the quick releise hook it has fallen over the side of the boat you could now be faced with a long slow beat home with no trapize.

Remember that the manufactureres of the quick releise harnesses have a vested interest in telling us that the old ones are no good if a hook is satisfactory I do not need to buy anythingfor me for the manufacturers!



Posted By: john.d.knight
Date Posted: 26 Nov 04 at 1:58pm
I've been out of the widsurfing world a few years now but we had low snag hooks and quick release harnesses twenty years ago. Surely its not beyond harness manufacturers to be able to adapt these features for trapezing harnesses? Here's a link to a quick release system on a windsurfer harness http://www.gunsails.co.uk/en/harness.htm - http://www.gunsails.co.uk/en/harness.htm  it's about 2/3rds down the pay.

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Pain is just weakness leaving the body.


Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 26 Nov 04 at 2:41pm

This has been discussed on catsailor.com a great deal :

 

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Test&Number=39816&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1 - http://www.catsailor.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board= Test&Number=39816&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5 &o=&fpart=1

 

 



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Wanna learn to Ski - PM me..


Posted By: Lucy Lee
Date Posted: 26 Nov 04 at 2:41pm

That windsurfing kit site is a bit strange: you can only look at the back of the harnesses, with the groovy graphics, and not at the buisness end of the harness.

How does the QR system work?



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Fly Cherub!


Posted By: hurricane
Date Posted: 26 Nov 04 at 3:34pm

"40.2 A trapeze or hiking harness shall have a device capable of quickly releasing the competitor from the boat at all times while in use."

does a Knive count as a quick release mechinism???

because thats what i carry

and tbh i am really annoyed with the rule beacuse i think these systems look very easy to set off by accident and wont be using one!!!!!



Posted By: Phil eltringham
Date Posted: 26 Nov 04 at 6:18pm

I think the knife would only work if you had a lace on hook, and even then I would not trust myself to be clear headed enough to cut myself free if I was struggling for breath under a hull/tramp. 

Personally I'll stick to my B14 where I dont have to worry about trapeeze hooks. 



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FLAT IS FAST!
Shifts Happen


Posted By: hurricane
Date Posted: 26 Nov 04 at 7:43pm

the other question is will they say to us

you must wear your trapeze harness on the outside of your life jacket, because i know i dont!!! and i prefer it that way!!



Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 27 Nov 04 at 7:58am

Of course there is another option to the QR hook -
that would be a QR harness.

It would mean that you would have to wear the harness
over the top of all of your clothes. 3 clips of the
variety used on your sailing bag carry straps should
do it.

I do wear my harness over the top of my buoyancy aid - I would prefer to have the option of at least trying to get out of my harness if trapped.



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Bonnie Lass Contender 1764


Posted By: Martin Smethers
Date Posted: 28 Nov 04 at 7:22pm
As yet, there is no definition from ISAF as to what will satisfy the requirements of being a "quick release harness".  Until the minutes of the recent meetings are published, we are all playing a guessing game.

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Martin Smethers


Posted By: *GM*
Date Posted: 28 Nov 04 at 9:30pm

Surely the definition of what is a QR harness should have been included in the rule!



Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 28 Nov 04 at 9:46pm
I can't understand this obsession with the hook.  Everybody who has done a bit of trapezeing knows where the hook is and clears it automatically when they feel it catching.  A much greater danger are all the buckles which some of the harnesses have.  I know from experience that a rope can get caught around a buckle and as the boat inverts it drags you under and its no use carrying a knife because you don't have time the find out which buckle, which rope.  The answer is the simplest cleanest harness that can be made and these extra quick release pins are just one more thing to get caught.


Posted By: hurricane
Date Posted: 28 Nov 04 at 9:56pm

these extra pins also can be pulled and thus dropping you into the water and probably leading to a capsize and could put the other sailor in danger!

 



Posted By: john.d.knight
Date Posted: 29 Nov 04 at 1:24pm
After reading all the comments about how dangerous these trapeze harnesses are you may find that, after fox hunting and smoking, trapezing will be next on the banning list for this government. 

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Pain is just weakness leaving the body.


Posted By: Matt Jackson
Date Posted: 29 Nov 04 at 5:04pm

Note that any focus on the hook is because of previous comments here (probably driven by awareness of products already on sale) but the rule doesn't mention hooks.

In a Contender (The Ultimate Singlehander by the way) and I assume other single-handed trapeze boats in winds more than F4 it's hard to generate enough speed to tack without being on the wire. So if you have just hacked your harness off or jettisoned the hook you'd have difficulty sailing upwind.

The wording is poor as other people have pointed out and I think there is every intention to word it better. For a start I reckon I could get out of my (non QR) harness in about 20 seconds which is pretty quick so there would need more of a definition of quick release!



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Laser 203001, Harrier (H+) 36


Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 29 Nov 04 at 8:09pm
Originally posted by Matt Jackson

In a Contender (The Ultimate Singlehander by the way) and I assume other single-handed trapeze boats in winds more than F4 it's hard to generate enough speed to tack without being on the wire. So if you have just hacked your harness off or jettisoned the hook you'd have difficulty sailing upwind.

Now that could be dangerous - I'd rather risk a conventional harness.



Posted By: hurricane
Date Posted: 30 Nov 04 at 3:42pm

Originally posted by john.d.knight

After reading all the comments about how dangerous these trapeze harnesses are you may find that, after fox hunting and smoking, trapezing will be next on the banning list for this government. 

when will be be banned from going sailing???

and do you think that eventually we will be banned from living?



Posted By: Phil eltringham
Date Posted: 30 Nov 04 at 4:46pm
Originally posted by hurricane

when will be be banned from going sailing???

and do you think that eventually we will be banned from living?

I think that come into effect next tuesday and a week on friday respectively. 

So in the mean time:

Live Fast, Sail Faster!! 



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FLAT IS FAST!
Shifts Happen


Posted By: Spot192
Date Posted: 01 Dec 04 at 2:04pm
for the international aspect, i want to ask how much these harnesses cost in the uk. in germany they´re expensive and you have to add the cost of the sailmaker, who changes your whole trapezeharness. and i also think and i can say from my own experience that the life vests and the type of harness is more dangerous. i started sailing on trapeze at the age of three in a fireball with my dad and till know i hadn´t any problems with the hook.

servus fiona 


Posted By: Doctor Clifford
Date Posted: 01 Dec 04 at 3:47pm
on a cat, there is a greater danger of getting trapped.
firstly, the large area of the tramp is harder to get out
from and traps no air at all.
secondly, cats have slacker rigging, with some
slackening the rig hugely to depower (Hobie 16), and
it is quite possible to catch the hook round a shroud
and then twist through 360 degrees whilst inverting.
If the rig tightens then, you've had it, and cold fingers
are unable to work out what the hell is going on.

I dont have a quick release jobby yet, but will do with
next upgrade

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regards
Dr. Clifford

take two tablets twice daily


Posted By: Spot192
Date Posted: 01 Dec 04 at 4:12pm
i know the danger of hooks in the cat scene, several people died even at our little lake because of it and there is no question of buying it. i´ll do it too, but i would really prefer deciding it on my own, i wanna do it when i think i really do need it, and its in my point of view also a bit about the money the producers wanna earn. it´s a bad idea to sell the "starting pacage"  with the hook and the release thing (i don´t know the english word), but if you are really at the point to release your hook you have to buy the hook and the release thing, if you lost it, seperate, what costs a lot of money.

servus fiona


Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 05 Dec 04 at 9:44pm
I had a look at one today.  Horrible device, it is possible to get something caught behind the release pin and get snagged.  I'd say they are more of a danger than the standard hook.


Posted By: Blobby
Date Posted: 06 Dec 04 at 3:49am

Isn't this the same thing as the ISAF rule that bans hiking shorts because they have battens in to support your weight further out, that was quickly anulled by a large number of the hiking boat class rules being modified to permit them??

The big danger I see here is that the classes don't have the freedom to tell ISAF they have got it wrong (as with the hiking shorts) because the Insurance companies are going to insist on them and use it as a way of not paying out on genuine claims...



Posted By: Matt Jackson
Date Posted: 06 Dec 04 at 9:56am

There has been a fair bit of talk about changing the class rules to delete ISAF rules (like hiking shorts). The difference is hiking shorts are a 'performance' issue not 'safety' and a class that deletes a 'safety' type rule and subsequently has a fatal accident which could have been prevented by that rule could have some problems, like sailing clubs not accepting open meetings and insurers not insuring that class.

This is why it's important to speak up before this rule is forced on us - there is no way it would be deleted once in force. Like I've said before this is a slippery slope to the over regulation of sailing by the people elected to represent us.

The RYA does have some information on their pages about the issue but their stance does not seem to be against the rule just the wording and implementation...

"It is clearly desirable for competitors and equipment manufacturers that this new rule is interpreted uniformly across the whole world.  The RYA is therefore currently seeking, through ISAF, to establish clear and internationally-accepted guidance on the rule's implementation and interpretation."

... but they are trying to collate information on entrapment to get a better picture of the problem and I urge those with an experience of entrapment (including those not involving a harness) to fill in their questionaire at  http://www.rya.org.uk/Training/entrapmentquestionnaire/default.asp - http://www.rya.org.uk/Training/entrapmentquestionnaire/defau lt.asp

and they also have a basic harness review at  http://www.rya.org.uk/Training/News.asp?contentId=2602643 - http://www.rya.org.uk/Training/News.asp?contentId=2602643



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Laser 203001, Harrier (H+) 36


Posted By: smurfer
Date Posted: 09 Dec 04 at 9:17pm
before we get carried away, I also kitesurf as well as sail dinghies and we permanently attach ourselves to the kite with a shackle (quick release) so that if we're over-powered or lofted we can release ourselves. Various systems around but I use a wichard shackle which can be released easily. Why couldn't this idea be used for trapezes? 


Posted By: Granite
Date Posted: 09 Dec 04 at 11:08pm
The problem is that everyone will have to replace or modify their harness .not a big problem for the keen sailor .
But it is the end for spare harnesses, old harnesses, you can no longer carry your old harness in case your crew forgets theirs, the old harness at the sailing club will probably go in the bin reducing sailing opertunities for beginers. It is a lot of expence and hastle for a not clearly defined risk.
It is legislation without clear regulation.
How is the quick releise system to be tested and qualified? How do you know if the system that you have is leagal?



Posted By: Matt Jackson
Date Posted: 10 Dec 04 at 8:34am

Originally posted by smurfer

before we get carried away, I also kitesurf as well as sail dinghies and we permanently attach ourselves to the kite with a shackle (quick release) so that if we're over-powered or lofted we can release ourselves. Various systems around but I use a wichard shackle which can be released easily. Why couldn't this idea be used for trapezes? 

Yes but how often do you tack a kite? or have to unhook quickly because you're about to capsize to windward? The main reason you don't use a QR shackle is the time taken to unhook - I imagine in an ideal session of Kitesurfing you hook on once and unhook once in a dinghy it's more like 30-100. The current system has been around for a long time with small incremental advances being made (until Bethwaite came along) which are a good compromise between speed of unhooking and the hook staying secure when you want it to.



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Laser 203001, Harrier (H+) 36


Posted By: smurfer
Date Posted: 10 Dec 04 at 9:00am
I was thinking the shackle would be between the trapeze wire and the loop/eye, so if the loop and hook get tangled just release the whole lot. You would of course need a shackle on each wire... gets expensive doesnt it.... ok, not such a bright idea


Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 10 Dec 04 at 12:02pm

The whole point here is the hook on the harness, which can get snagged on either the trapeze wire or other parts of the boat.

It is the other parts of the boat that are worrying - these can include shrouds, control ropes, toestraps, centre mainsheet towers (the swivel jammer from holt looks particularily dangerous see http://www.holtallen.com/holt/wire.html - http://www.holtallen.com/holt/wire.html ) etc

So look round your boat and think where you could get caught - either don't have a hook on your harness (Bethwaite system) or be sure you can get out of your harness quickly by releasing the hook or unbuckling the harness.

Knives are worthless if you get caught on some wire and I would not like to try and cut away the harness. But they do have their uses - you may be able to help free someone else for example. Does anyone have a preferred type of knive?

 

 



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Bonnie Lass Contender 1764


Posted By: hurricane
Date Posted: 10 Dec 04 at 5:56pm

one that doesnt go rusty !!!

the typhoon one, is good i have had one on myelf for the last 2 years and it hasnt gone rusty at all!! 



Posted By: Claymore
Date Posted: 11 Dec 04 at 12:10am
Got myself the RRK one recently, some surface rust but still very sharp.
Sheath easy to locate on boat or bouyancy aid depending on what I'm sailing.


Posted By: bigwavedave
Date Posted: 08 Jan 05 at 6:30pm

I posted the following on the ISAF forum

Could the ISAF please define exactly what a quick release harness system is? Is the ball and socket joint type sufficient for the new rules? What if a stopper knot gets caught in the keyhole? How quick is quick? If you can release all the buckles on your harness does that count? Perhaps the ISAF could provide a list of systems that will fit the new rules.

And got this reply

Your request for further information would require an interpretation of the Racing Rules of Sailing. The process for requesting an interpretation is for your Member National Authority, the Royal Yachting Association, to request such an interpretation directly to ISAF.

Interpretations of the ISAF Racing Rules of Sailing are governed by ISAF Regulation 31.3 - www.sailing.org/regulations http://www.sailing.org/regulations - www.sailing.org/regulations

Thats helpful!



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Posted By: Matt Jackson
Date Posted: 09 Jan 05 at 11:52am

I have contacted the RYA myself and their response wasn't much better, the system for an ordinary sailor to change the course of the racing rules is extremely long-winded. I suspect it has fairly limited results which is why we need to speak up now by contacting the RYA and makig it clear that we are concerned about this new ruling. I for one, don't want an 'interpretation' to this rule I want my chosen sport to remain as free as it was when I was growing up.



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Laser 203001, Harrier (H+) 36


Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 09 Jan 05 at 12:00pm

Originally posted by Matt Jackson

 My objection to this rule is a ‘thin end of the wedge’ thing if we let this rule through then what next? Crash helmets? Back protectors? EPIRBs? All this drives up the cost and reduces the freedom of our sport.

If you go offshore racing, you have to conform with reams of safety equipment requirements which get tighter every couple of years. It hasn't killed off the sport. I'm afraid I can't see what all the fuss is about.

 

 



Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 09 Jan 05 at 10:44pm

I object to this rule in particular.  The hook is something every trapeze sailor is aware of, they know where it is and can unsnag it with their eyes closed.  The only entrapement tradgedy that can be attributed to the hook was when a Tornado crew got caught under a tramp.  A knife would have freed that person.  There are may other ways a person can get trapped but nobody is doing anthing about that.  I have nearly drowned by getting snagged by a buckle, I know of various other sailing accidents.  Rarely is the hook the culprit, this rule is a knee jerk reaction and must be stopped or we will all drown in a sea of regulations which are ill considered.  I'm all for safety but this rule will have negligeable affect, cause inconvenience and expense and a false sense of security.



Posted By: Matt Jackson
Date Posted: 10 Jan 05 at 12:43pm
Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

Originally posted by Matt Jackson

 My objection to this rule is a ‘thin end of the wedge’ thing if we let this rule through then what next? Crash helmets? Back protectors? EPIRBs? All this drives up the cost and reduces the freedom of our sport.

If you go offshore racing, you have to conform with reams of safety equipment requirements which get tighter every couple of years. It hasn't killed off the sport. I'm afraid I can't see what all the fuss is about.

With respect, that's a bit of schoolyard argument - 'Our branch of the sport has lots of regulations so yours should as well!'

Off-shore racing is very different to dinghy racing and part of why I don’t sail big boats is the amount of organisation required – of which meeting safety regulations is part.

Sure this one rule (and probably the 'ream' of rules to follow) won't kill off the sport but it will make it more expensive for no obvious reason. Is that a good thing?

 



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Laser 203001, Harrier (H+) 36


Posted By: ssailor
Date Posted: 25 Jan 05 at 12:41pm
I also feel that the rule should be overviewed as I have never been caught by my hook, having read the article on the tornado incident it explains that neither of the crew or any of the people on the rescue boat were carrying knifes, which may well have saved the man from drowing.

Surely if its the hooks that are so deadly how come hardly anyone has serious problems on the 18ft skiffs which have cargo netting between the racks(perfect for catching a hook on).

The new QR hooks are a briliant idea however they are expensive especially when you already own a harness, last year my helm borrowed a QR harness and as he lent in to grab the main after dropping it his buoyancy aid undid the QR! this could be interesting if happened with a rib following behind or in a close situation (i.e port-starboard duck). Obviously the new designs will be developed but personally i feel that we should choose when we purchase new gear!


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Any one in need of quality carbon fibre work (tillers etc) at decent prices!

Int 14 Gbr 1244 'Nucking Futs'

The New Port rule!!.


Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 25 Jan 05 at 3:27pm

Your request for further information would require an interpretation of the Racing Rules of Sailing. The process for requesting an interpretation is for your Member National Authority, the Royal Yachting Association, to request such an interpretation directly to ISAF.

My firm belief is that the ISAF have made a major error eith this rule and so are desperatly trying to dis-own it.

If they give an interpretation, and then someone follows this and then gets trapped(and dies or gets hurt) they are in trouble.  All the time they say noting, they can fudge it, and pass it onto the local (RYA) to issue something.  The RYA (rightly in my view as this is a VERY BAD RULE) will not comment. 

This rule is a disaster.  Someone got trapped and died, and this is a knee jerk action.



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Wanna learn to Ski - PM me..


Posted By: bigwavedave
Date Posted: 25 Jan 05 at 4:35pm
If you have not already, register with ISAF and then you can post your thoughts about this on their own forum.  I have started a thread there.  With enough pressure we may get a response.

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Posted By: lozza
Date Posted: 25 Jan 05 at 4:53pm
link?

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Life's a reach, then you gybe


Posted By: *GM*
Date Posted: 25 Jan 05 at 7:26pm

http://www.sailing.org/forum/display_topic_threads.asp?ForumID=2&TopicID=258&PagePosition=1 - http://www.sailing.org/forum/display_topic_threads.asp?Forum ID=2&TopicID=258&PagePosition=1

You have to register to see it though.

The helpful <cough> comments from ISAF are from one Luissa Smith, the ISAF Director of Development and Information. One hopes she's better at development than she is at information...



Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 25 Jan 05 at 8:53pm

Hope you like it :

For clarification, please be advised that the rule concerning quick release for trapeze or hiking harness - ISAF Racing Rule of Sailing 40.2 - does not come into effect until 1 January 2006.

 

Is the ISAF going to be telling all the harness makers on the 1st Jan 2006 which ones are OK ? 

 

Does the ISAF feel that the harness makers will be able to instantly manufacture x,000,000's of harnesses on Jan 1st 2006 so we can all buy them and so comply with the rule ? 

 

Does the ISAF understand that all harnesses do not wear out at the same rate, if I need a new harness tomorrow, can I buy a discounted one (with the ISAF paying) as it may only be of use to me ‘till Jan 2006 ?

 

I think the answer to all the above is no.

 

Somewhere I read that the ISAF wanted to encourage the poorer nations around the world into sailing, does the ISAF understand this "non answering" of the question  posed above will impact the poorer nations (and poorer sailors) as they cannot afford to buy a new harness, JUST BECAUSE THE ISAF SAYS THEY MUST.

 

Come on ISAF

 

Make a statement about which designs are OK and which are not so we can all go and buy a new harness

 

Or has the ISAF decided this rule is flawed and should be removed.  If so, please do it now.

 

 

 

I propose a new rule.  “all sailors should have a knife attached to their boat that it capable of cutting any webbing (such as catamaran trampolines) and sail sheets (up to 10mm which is the largest I believe is used) attached to the transom of the boat (or Port transom of Catamarans) for the purpose of assisting rescue craft in freeing trapped sailors.    I’ll let you guys sort out the actual wording, you might be good at that.

 



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Wanna learn to Ski - PM me..


Posted By: Garry
Date Posted: 25 Jan 05 at 9:36pm
Am I naive in thinking the RYA should be championing this on our behalf! Although looking at the last voting information most of the committee seem to be big boat sailors!

In seriousness carrying a knife might actually be a better safety strategy and... could stop helms abusing their crews

Has anyone spoken to harness manufacturers?

What about every trapeze class stand displaying (in large print/posters) something like "New Harness Rule ill considered - Is the RYA doing anything?" at the dinghy show?



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Garry

Lark 2252, Contender 298

www.cuckoos.eclipse.co.uk


Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 25 Jan 05 at 9:49pm

What about every trapeze class stand displaying (in large print/posters) something like "New Harness Rule ill considered - Is the RYA doing anything?" at the dinghy show?

now there is a good idea



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Wanna learn to Ski - PM me..


Posted By: Blobby
Date Posted: 26 Jan 05 at 4:18am

Read your Y&Y - the RYA is doing something.  They are collecting data and proving that dying as a result of your trapeze harness causing entrapment is a miniscule risk, so we don't need to bother doing anything.  (Mulit mad column, Jan 7th).

Personally I have written to Y&Y and said this is fine but surely the wrong approach.  ISAF will respond saying "the risk may be miniscule but somebody died and it is something that could be prevented so taking action is correct".

After all, if a professional sailor is issued with a harness by his employer or sponsor, it then falls under the Health & Safety at Work Act and big money lawyers get involved with prosectutions etc etc.  End result - trapeze harnesses are inherently unsafe and therefore trapezing should be made illegal...(maybe a slight exageration but not much!)

The fact is there are better solutions - but none are visible in the market place except the Bethwaite ball + socket harness (which will not comply with the new rule as far as I can tell).  The best solution is to prevent the trapeze hook catching on something in the first place.  Having knives or quick release hooks to get released after getting caught is basically a last resort.



Posted By: Matt Jackson
Date Posted: 26 Jan 05 at 8:13am
... and completely useless if you happen to be unconcious - a side-effect of the drowning process I'm told.

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Laser 203001, Harrier (H+) 36


Posted By: catmandoo
Date Posted: 26 Jan 05 at 1:18pm

As we all know ISAF are losing the plot on this one .

 

It's interesting to consider wether the unfortunate trapped Tornado sailor would have benefitted from less bouyancy and being able to move in the water more easily , pehaps without the bouyancy I assume he was wearing , he may have been able to get free.

Similarily in other situations where harnesses get caught , surely the constant upwards force from wearing extra bouyancy must tighten line etc and make it far harder to disentangle from underwater rigging .

Most people in dinghy sailing gear are positive bouyant through air in neoprene , clothing , drysuits etc without the excesses of an aid , after all humans are just about bouyant with no help .

 

 

 



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Posted By: Coolhand
Date Posted: 26 Jan 05 at 2:08pm

I suspect that this rule might be due to the you didn't tell me "not to put my dog in a microwave/that the coffee would be hot/that if I use Cruise control I still have to steer" effect.

If you're told to do something and then don't the liablity is shifted - therefore I suspect that every organisation will have to adopt the rule or face being taken to court for emotional stress by the first person to get a dunking whilst attcached to the wire.

 

  



Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 26 Jan 05 at 2:43pm

But then someone gets trapped / dies wearing an 'approved harness' and the ISAF gets sued. 

I still believe the ISAF have put them selves betweena  rock and a hard place with this rule an d can now see this - Hence why they (the ISAF) are dodging making any statements while they (the ISAF) work out how to get out of it. 



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Wanna learn to Ski - PM me..


Posted By: Matt Jackson
Date Posted: 26 Jan 05 at 4:52pm
I don't think they're in touch enough with the real world (ie where people get wet now and then) to be aware they've made a mistake. Either that or they're just too belligerent to care.

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Laser 203001, Harrier (H+) 36


Posted By: Blobby
Date Posted: 31 Jan 05 at 3:33am

Having read the forum thread on the ISAF site I am not surprised that they haven't responded in an appropriate manner.  The comments are basically downright rude, childish and provocative...

If you want your comments to be taken seriously, present a serious considered argument!




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