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More Corrupt BS

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Olympic Sailing
Forum Discription: The top end racing in our sport
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12934
Printed Date: 22 Apr 18 at 12:14pm
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Topic: More Corrupt BS
Posted By: iGRF
Subject: More Corrupt BS
Date Posted: 13 Dec 17 at 10:47am
https://www.sailingillustrated.com/single-post/2017/12/11/Olympics-World-Sailings-radical-plan-to-overhaul-2024-eventsclasses" rel="nofollow - Windsurfing Out, Kite Monopoly, Mixed Classes


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Replies:
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 13 Dec 17 at 11:10am
Just sums up how out of touch World Sailing is with the sport.  Really can't how the proposed keelboat class with overnight sailing is going to fit into an Olympic template.  Have just filled in a survey for Workd Sailing completely about social media and sponsorship ... nothing about developing the sport at grass roots.

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Somewhere between lies and truth lies the truth


Posted By: ifoxwell
Date Posted: 13 Dec 17 at 11:39am
It is for the event to be held in France however, the home of short handed off shore sailing... cant be a coincidence can it

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Blaze 715


Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 13 Dec 17 at 3:39pm
Short-handed: French flavour and one that has real interest world-wide.  Not only that it will be the longest duration single event of the Olympics and that will make it both accessible to a world-wide audience, and add interest.

As for kiting over-windsurfing: I admire the extreme athleticism of the windsurfers and their CV fitness levels, but I don't recognise the light to medium wind pump fest as sailing.  Kiting seems much cleaner in that respect.


Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 13 Dec 17 at 3:40pm
Also mixed is good for the sports profile.  One of the only genuinely mixed events in sport.


Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 13 Dec 17 at 4:16pm
Originally posted by sargesail

Short-handed: French flavour and one that has real interest world-wide.  Not only that it will be the longest duration single event of the Olympics and that will make it both accessible to a world-wide audience, and add interest.

As for kiting over-windsurfing: I admire the extreme athleticism of the windsurfers and their CV fitness levels, but I don't recognise the light to medium wind pump fest as sailing.  Kiting seems much cleaner in that respect.

+1


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Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 13 Dec 17 at 4:36pm
Originally posted by sargesail

Short-handed: French flavour and one that has real interest world-wide.  Not only that it will be the longest duration single event of the Olympics and that will make it both accessible to a world-wide audience, and add interest.

As for kiting over-windsurfing: I admire the extreme athleticism of the windsurfers and their CV fitness levels, but I don't recognise the light to medium wind pump fest as sailing.  Kiting seems much cleaner in that respect.

+1 x2. 
So nice of you to write what Iím thinking. Saves me so much time. Thanks!!


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 13 Dec 17 at 9:05pm
We'll see.

ISAF/WS has issued a press release which sort of rubbishes that press report ( http://www.sailing.org/news/85767.php" rel="nofollow - http://www.sailing.org/news/85767.php ), but unfortunately their ability to write a report of the conference seems to have deserted them in favour of posting mind boggling tedious and unwatchable videos of the meetings so its hard to work out WTF is going on.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 13 Dec 17 at 10:08pm
So it seems likely they'll announce exactly what "Sailing Illustrated" have just leaked? Embarrassed

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep" (now sold but still undecided as to her replacement)


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 13 Dec 17 at 11:04pm
It may be more complicated than that... The traditional way of doing Olympic class selection is a massive horse trading exercise at the annual conference, in which all sorts of proposals come and go, and the end result isn't necessarily what the executive wanted. You may remember that kites were in and then out again within a few hours at the last selection session as different groups had their say. The council gets the final say.

What that document is alleging is that the staff side is going to attempt to railroad the decision through with an email vote in the spring, instead of it going through the normal long winded and acrimonious (and democratic) process in November.

The choice of classes is one thing, but if the executive are really seeking to railroad something through like that (and there are to me some hints in the ISAF pr that there may be an element of that) then that is to me a really big deal and something that ought to be stamped on.

Its interesting too, because the RYA, apparently as a result of legislation changes, also seems to be changing their management structure so the full time execs and managers will have much more power, and the representatives in the council much less.


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 14 Dec 17 at 9:01am
Originally posted by Presuming Ed

[QUOTE=sargesail]Short-handed: French flavour and one that has real interest world-wide.  Not only that it will be the longest duration single event of the Olympics and that will make it both accessible to a world-wide audience, and add interest.

As for kiting over-windsurfing: I admire the extreme athleticism of the windsurfers and their CV fitness levels, but I don't recognise the light to medium wind pump fest as sailing.  Kiting seems much cleaner in that respect.
+3
I think it's a good idea. 

If anything the regatta format we have currently doesn't fit well in to the 'Olympic template' which has led to medal races and random lay days.  Having TV presenters checking in on the offshore progress between other events would mesh well and there's no postponements to worry about. 

The big issue though is equipment and a world series leading up the Olympics. I get the impression there is a big drive for equipment to be internationally available which if that's a push for the present events, it will be even harder for an offshore class to claim. 

There is a well established World Sailing World Series and continental events which is used for sailor rankings and selection, alongside world championships. It pretty easy to substitute another dinghy or small keel boat, or even match or team racing in to these events... but not so much shorthanded offshore sailing. None of this exists for offshore racing. 


Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 14 Dec 17 at 9:12am
Production Mini Class?


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 14 Dec 17 at 10:12am
Originally posted by sargesail

As for kiting over-windsurfing: I admire the extreme athleticism of the windsurfers and their CV fitness levels, but I don't recognise the light to medium wind pump fest as sailing. †Kiting seems much cleaner in that respect.
Which is all well and good if the participants really wanted inclusion (Kiting can be equally atheletic the propulsion style is just different) but the few course racing style competitors that exist in the kite world are ambivalent at best and at worse do not want to be railroaded by the Pryde Organisation into an agricultural One Design purely for the financial benefit of that organisation. The sport is still evolving quite rapidly so if they were to be involved they'd prefer a box design and open equipment supply, they also don't want the rider weight restrictions that One Design will bring. But it matters not what anyone thinks the decision appears already to have been taken at a business meeting a few months back, the Pryde Organisation has all the means to 'accommodate MNA reps' and they are also hedging their bets with an OD foiling windsurfer just in case.

Most kitsurfers don't believe they are 'sailors', kite flyers, kiteboard 'riders', kite pilots even, they certainly do not want the prescriptions of World Sailing and I can't say I blame them.

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Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 14 Dec 17 at 11:06am
Originally posted by iGRF

the few course racing style competitors that exist in the kite world are ambivalent at best and at worse do not want to be railroaded by the Pryde Organisation into an agricultural One Design purely for the financial benefit of that organisation. 

Most kitsurfers don't believe they are 'sailors', kite flyers, kiteboard 'riders', kite pilots even, they certainly do not want the prescriptions of World Sailing and I can't say I blame them.

Whether being in the Olympics is good for a sport or not is another debate. 

Going that way leads you in to a path of prescriptive equipment selection and well defined 'rules'. This is good for building pathways and adding structure to a developed sport.

But I get the impression that for new sports you need the slightly anarchistic competition formats and equipment mix to truly work out what the sport is about before you start closing it down with rules.  


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 14 Dec 17 at 11:27am
Being in the Olympics is only good for those involved in 'managing' a sport, the Gravy train, it's never imv been about us as competitors, these days it's purely about revenue and emerging 'action' sports are perceived as good TV, they're wrong, action sports followers are more about taking part than watching, but then it's not about them either is it?

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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 14 Dec 17 at 12:44pm
On that we agree iGRF and that is from a senior railcard holding dinghy sailor. Watching holds only fleeting interest for me.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 14 Dec 17 at 12:56pm
Steady now.. agreeing with me will get you struck off Santa's list..

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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 14 Dec 17 at 1:32pm
I'd say you were on pretty safe ground in suggesting that vested interest might have influenced WS/ISAF/IYRU decisions over the years. Are Neil Pryde still making 49er sails?

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 14 Dec 17 at 1:50pm
No Idea, up until recently (this summer) Neil Pryde didn't market kites under their own brand name, using Cabrinha for presumably better image. I should have realised what was going on when a guy came on the phone asking for advice on kite distribution, I just thought he'd just embarked on Mission Impossible. It's taken me three years to introduce a new kite brand to this country and it's a well established European outfit who make really excellent kites. It's a very tight and over subscribed market so not something to enter lightly and certainly not as a micro niche like racing foils unless you know something no-one else does in regards to the future activities of World Sailing.


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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 14 Dec 17 at 9:31pm
If they are going to put Kite surfing in the Olympics they may as well have Jetski's too, both are anti social in use and controlled ? by yobs.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 15 Dec 17 at 3:39pm
I think you'll find it's the RYA that control them both so yes, you could be right.

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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 15 Dec 17 at 5:35pm


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 16 Dec 17 at 5:10pm
Yachtings Own BS


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 02 Feb 18 at 9:37am
Reading this article on how classes are selected makes my head spin:  https://www.sail-world.com/news/201694/Olympic-class-table-half-set-for-2024" rel="nofollow - https://www.sail-world.com/news/201694/Olympic-class-table-half-set-for-2024

Seems Finn, 470 and RSX are in firing line. 

If the Finn went I would feel sorry for the bigger gentleman, as there wouldn't really be anywhere to go for those over 90 kg. Having said, the ladies only have one option in the radial, so maybe it should be the same for men?

470 would be a shame if it went. I think it's probably the closest to the average dinghy most of us sail. 

I would quite fancy a short handed offshore race though. I don't think the stadium racing has ever worked as you can never really get close enough for it to work. I think the best viewing is done by mounting cameras and technology on the boats; which gets easier the bigger the boat you have. I think following an offshore race from the opening ceremony to the closing one would make a good narrative too.... equipment cost and accessibility for third world nations would be a major sticking point for the IOC though. 


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 02 Feb 18 at 11:09am
Petition to get sailing out of the Olympics anyone?

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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 02 Feb 18 at 11:19am
As far as windsurfing is concerned the RSX is like putting a keel on a 49er. Bring back Raceboards if it's course racing or, if the conditions can be reasonably guaranteed, do slalom, freestyle or waves.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep" (now sold but still undecided as to her replacement)


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 02 Feb 18 at 11:27am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

As far as windsurfing is concerned the RSX is like putting a keel on a 49er.
As an outsider I can't really see any difference. Makes me think that it's probably like that for the general public with whether the 49er or a 470 gets picked. 

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

 Bring back Raceboards if it's course racing or, if the conditions can be reasonably guaranteed, do slalom, freestyle or waves.
If there is one aspect Olympics sports I don't like, it's judges. Higher, faster stronger.  


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 02 Feb 18 at 12:01pm
I get where you're coming from with that but pretty much the whole of Gymnastics has judges, Equestrianism too, and I'm sure there are others.

The problem with the RSX is that it is neither one thing or the other, it's trying to be a formula type planing board with the CB up, but it's nearly double the weight, (it's actually 2.5 kg heavier than a much larger Raceboard). With the CB down it's trying to be a Raceboard but it's nearly 1.4 metres shorter so basically it's slow to plane, slow when planing, slow in displacement mode and, if many who have sailed one are to be believed, distinctly unpleasant to sail (much as a 49er with 80kg of lead underneath would likely be). Ouch



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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep" (now sold but still undecided as to her replacement)


Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 02 Feb 18 at 12:31pm
I've not sail an RSX, but after trying a new 'modern' board with a centreboard on holiday last year promptly went home and bought a lovely old race board (Mistral Equipe) as the modern wide board was completely rubbish!. People forget just how awesome they were upwind and down and great to see a bit of a resurgence in them

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OK 2122 & 2148


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 02 Feb 18 at 2:06pm
Campaign for plain english anyone.
 It was deemed possible to change the names of the Events, so long as the nature of the Events themselves would remain unchanged, in a separate process in the future.


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 02 Feb 18 at 2:54pm
Ha yes! Glad it's not just me who struggled to understand!

I still don't understand what they are saying about names of events and replacing event names but keep.

Seems like they should first decide why types of event they want (i.e the fundamental types of sailing they want competing). Then they should select equipment for those events. From the article I'm unsure if that is the process or not!



Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 02 Feb 18 at 3:59pm
Think its about policies and moving goalposts from the IOC that don't really match how sailing works. Ultimately, in the long run, do we really much care about the names of the events as long as the IOC are happy?


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 02 Feb 18 at 9:04pm
Originally posted by sargesail

... will make it both accessible to a world-wide audience, and add interest.

Why would we want to make TV presentation of sailing more 'accessible' to an audience?


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 03 Feb 18 at 1:57pm
Why wouldn't we?
Surely anything that brings sailing into the public eye is a good thing.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 03 Feb 18 at 3:11pm
Originally posted by 423zero

Why wouldn't we?
Surely anything that brings sailing into the public eye is a good thing.

Not if it adversely affects the quality of the racing. The AC series is pretty decent telly (for a couple of races anyway) but I'm sure the racing would be better if it was a couple of miles out to sea on bigger courses with longer legs and steadier winds.


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep" (now sold but still undecided as to her replacement)


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 03 Feb 18 at 10:26pm
Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by sargesail

... will make it both accessible to a world-wide audience, and add interest.
Why would we want to make TV presentation of sailing more 'accessible' to an audience?
Originally posted by 423zero

Why wouldn't we?
Surely anything that brings sailing into the public eye is a good thing.
Please don't think me obtuse, but Why?  What benefit does 'bringing sailing into the public eye' have for those people who participate in sailing?


Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 04 Feb 18 at 9:40am
Please don't think me obtuse, but Why?  What benefit does 'bringing sailing into the public eye' have for those people who participate in sailing?

IF sailors were worried about falling participation and IF watching things like AC and Olympics coverage encourage people to take it up themselves then there would be a benefit.

While the first IF is true for many, I'm a lot more doubtful about the second. Does current TV coverage make people more likely to take part? I fear not. In general I'm not at all convinced that sports coverage is generally seen as having anything to do with what you do yourself - it's just another form of reality entertainment for most.

I do think good TV coverage would be of real interest to existing sailors but I often/generally find the quality of the editing of what's shown and the commentary is aimed at spectacle intead of informed coverage and comment.


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Peter
Ex Cont 707
Laser 189635
DY 59


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 04 Feb 18 at 10:02am
I'll spend an hour participating in a race whenever I can(would be this morning, but full of cold) but it has to be something pretty special to get me watching sailing on screen for an hour. But I watched the Ireland rugby match yesterday, which, barring the last 5 seconds, wasn't very special at all. Some sports are better on telly than others, I guess.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 04 Feb 18 at 11:19am
Sport participation across the board is declining,  their is more sport on tv now than ever, so perhaps sailing on tv won't help ? Would the decline across all sports be more pronounced without coverage?



Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 04 Feb 18 at 5:28pm
I do wonder whether the increasing gap between the amateur game and the professional game does not help the growth of sports, not just sailing.

Back in the day as a 18 year old good club sailor, you could still see a route to the top of the game, be it Olympics, Admirals Cup or Americaís Cup.

In particular there were successful mavericks.

Now, unless you have participated in the squad systems from an early age, that particular horse has bolted.

Media presentation of the sport was across the board, the Telegraph, Times and Guardian all had correspondents who turned up to the major chamionships and WOW ... it was all very aspirational.

Now I cannot see how the AC relates to what we do, except that the boats are wind powered.  The Olympics are far removed with a dumbed down format for TV.


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Somewhere between lies and truth lies the truth


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 04 Feb 18 at 9:06pm
Politics aside. I am not sure how much TV coverage can contribute to sailing.

According to psychologists viewers enjoy watching sport for a few reasons.

There is the tribal connection of supporting and taking the reflected glory of a winning team. Not really applicable to sailing.

If the viewer has taken part in the sport themselves then when watching it they experience the same sensations as if they were doing it. Only applicable to existing sailors and probably a stretch too far for most to truly get much from watching foiling Acs.



  




Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 04 Feb 18 at 9:30pm
Originally posted by Do Different

Politics aside. I am not sure how much TV coverage can contribute to sailing.
Politics how?
Originally posted by Do Different

According to psychologists viewers enjoy watching sport for a few reasons.

There is the tribal connection of supporting and taking the reflected glory of a winning team. Not really applicable to sailing.
Coming back to Olympics, don't you think following Team GBR counts, particularly at the London Games?
Originally posted by Do Different

If the viewer has taken part in the sport themselves then when watching it they experience the same sensations as if they were doing it. Only applicable to existing sailors and probably a stretch too far for most to truly get much from watching foiling Acs.
Still doesn't answer why we should be interested in people enjoying watching sailing




Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 04 Feb 18 at 10:36pm
Politics aside. That would be the implied title of the string. 

However we have now drifted to TV coverage.

Following team GBR every four years. No not really, too infrequent and hardly a team, more a collection of individuals.

I don't think we should be interested in people watching racing as it is too remote, boring and difficult to get an immediate feel of how people are doing for all but people who already sail.

Now sailing that is completely different tale, messing about water is so much more relatable.  




Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 05 Feb 18 at 3:34pm
Would the decline across all sports be more pronounced without coverage?

Or would it be less? Perhaps if there was less sport on TV people would get off their couches and take part more Tongue


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Peter
Ex Cont 707
Laser 189635
DY 59


Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 14 Feb 18 at 11:36pm
Well I LOVE watching racing on TV, and the Sailing World Cup weekends have me tuned in to YouTube for the Medal Races.
The RYA has stats, which fully back up the figures my SC have of membership and participation peaking in Olympic years, with a slow drift-down during each Olympic cycle, so there does appear to be a benefit to the sport.


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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 15 Feb 18 at 7:00am
Originally posted by Brass

Why?  What benefit does 'bringing sailing into the public eye' have for those people who participate in sailing?
Originally posted by PeterG

Does current TV coverage make people more likely to take part? 
Originally posted by Bootscooter

The RYA has stats, which fully back up the figures my SC have of membership and participation peaking in Olympic years, with a slow drift-down during each Olympic cycle, so there does appear to be a benefit to the sport.
Thanks.  Good answer to the questions posed.  Agrees with observations I had years ago about junior cricket and Ashes years.

I'm still not sure whether tinkering with the game and equipment at the highest levels, thus spoiling it for the average club racer, is worth the exposure gains and the unquantified exposure and possible increased participation gains.



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