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Travellers Series...

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12908
Printed Date: 20 Nov 17 at 3:35pm
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Topic: Travellers Series...
Posted By: JimC
Subject: Travellers Series...
Date Posted: 10 Nov 17 at 10:20am
I idly looked at the results of the RS200 SE travellers series because we hosted the last one, and was struck by how few boats (4 from I think 95) had actually done enough events (3 from 6) not to count a DNC. Looking at their other series the pattern is much the same (other than SW which had a few more).

http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/199506/RS200-Regional-Champions-2017

The much hyped Sailjuice series (4 from 7) is a bit difficult to read, but looks like 48 from 650 which I suppose is marginally better. Its hard, though, to avoid the conclusion that most folks don't care about travellers' series. Back when I was doing winter events regularly, long before any series, I would guess we usually did more than half of the major events anyway, which back then I guess were Grafham, QM, Pompey, Rutland.

So, do travellers' series bring anything to the party for you? Do you make a special attempt to try and get a series in?



Replies:
Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 10 Nov 17 at 12:06pm
The problem isn't traveller series, it's series full stop. 

To complete a series you need a very predictable weekly routine. Increasingly this is becoming less and less so; and especially amongst the demographic that makes up the RS200 fleet. More people work weekends, or weekends are more often taken up by other commitments (weddings / stag or hens/ christenings /  birthday parties).  This is especially true of younger people, and the RS200 draws heavily from the uni / post uni demographic / young family. 

The other problem the RS200 class has, is that it also has some very strong local clubs. For many who are strapped for cash it's cheaper to join a strong local club and race against 10-15 boats rather than travel further to race against 20-30.

On the other hand, my impression is that weeknight series do see a regular participation. People are more likely to have a set routine on a weekday that means if they can make one week, they'll likely be able to make the next. I regularly complete a Wednesday evening series. 

In terms of weekend events, both club and open, we are seeing a move away from 'series' to one off events. The RS classes have several on off events like: end of seasons, inlands, nationals, eurocup, sprints, winter champs. 

At our club we turned Saturday racing in to one off 'bottle races' as the series were almost always decided by number of races completed. Classes which have a more predictable turnout can still pull out results to score a series. We also hold sprint racing once a month, which concentrates participation on a specif days to give a better experience. This move seems to have provided more meaningful competition than the old Saturday series did. 


Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 10 Nov 17 at 12:19pm
Fundamental changes to modern lifestyles as highlighted above simply means that the number of people willing to trail their boat around to sail against others is in heavy decline. Also - some clubs view visitors clogging up the facilities as a nuisance and  add to that all the volunteers you need to find to host an open for a handful of visitors and what have you got?

The national attendance table is great; I wonder what an open meeting attendance table would look like.?


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 10 Nov 17 at 4:04pm
Personally Iíve felt the Sail Juice series has essentially ruined what weíre great stand alone events historically. Maybe itís been the controversies (little Ďcí) over the years which take the shine off them, but either way none now appeal whereas some of them used to.


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 10 Nov 17 at 5:29pm
personally Iíve felt the Sail Juice series has essentially ruined....

How ?  You can take part in any one, or more, of the events in isolation.  Don't want to take part in a series ? ... well don't  ! no difference to a club series really is it ... you simply do the ones you want to do if you are not bothered about a series. 

The 'great standalone' events are still simply that - except for the series spreadsheet.. but SJ must be doing something right overall as many, if not all, of the events now max out in terms of numbers.

You have choice ... is that not a good thing ?


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 10 Nov 17 at 5:38pm
Maybe inclusion of an open meeting in a travellers series or Sailjuice is sufficient to ensure the quality of the competition is sufficient to get out of bed for ... completion of a travellers series is not that important.

In the past I have noticed that qualifiers tend to come from clubs where there are not strong fleets, so the travellers series is really more of a travelling club.


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Somewhere between lies and truth lies the truth


Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 10 Nov 17 at 7:31pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

Personally Iíve felt the Sail Juice series has essentially ruined what weíre great stand alone events historically. Maybe itís been the controversies (little Ďcí) over the years which take the shine off them, but either way none now appeal whereas some of them used to.

Must confess I agree.

I can't put my finger on why, I just dont enjoy them like I used to.


Posted By: Gfinch
Date Posted: 10 Nov 17 at 10:00pm
The generous sponsorship from Gul helps the N12 traveller series. Every year turnout is high at Burghfield, but there is a big 12 fleet based there. Salcombe is popular and also RHYC can be. We tried new venues like Stokes Bay but didn't get more than 10.

Yet 26 entries last weekend to our inlands and final traveller series at Northampton and the OKs who joined us had similar numbers. Why won't people travel to an open in July but are willing to camp and sail in the cold in November?

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3513 - National 12
136069 - Laser
32541 - Mirror


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 10 Nov 17 at 10:13pm
Less going on in November, maybe? Or a greater feeling of camaraderie at such an event? Feels special, maybe?

The "special" feel maybe what starts to go missing when you turn one off winter events into a series? But I guess you gain some who want to be part of that bigger picture.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: Simon Lovesey
Date Posted: 11 Nov 17 at 8:52am
Stats from 2016/17 GJW Direct SailJuice Winter Series

All Seven events  - 2 entries
Six or more - 14
Five or more - 28
Four or more (qualified) - 53
Three or more - 79
Two or more - 145

Entries from  89 classes, representing 278 clubs

None of the events are forced to join the Series,  and we have a waiting list  of others wanting to get involved.  The events have seen a growth in profile and numbers over recent years,  even the Bloody Mary was seeing sub 100 boats before SJ.

Even those who cannot afford the time (or expense) of competing in multiple events,  benefit from a rise in quality for individual events,  and can contribute to awards such as Top Class and Top Club rankings


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Online Sailing Results, GPS Tracking & Event Management


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 11 Nov 17 at 2:29pm
Are there any stand alone events left which don't fall under the Sailjuice Mafia?

Does the Burnham Icicle still happen, that always used to be a key winter event back in the day, a bit like the Bloody Mary was.

It would be nice to have at least a couple of events that haven't been f**ked about by them.

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https://www.edgeactionsports.co.uk/collections/snowboards" rel="nofollow - Ski boot heaters, edge tuners deals galore


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 11 Nov 17 at 4:16pm
It would be nice to have at least a couple of events that haven't been f**ked about by them.

They are there but you are letting that tenuous grip on the facts slip further now.  Having never attended a single SJ event yourself you know all about how 'it should be run' etc.  Hey ho we've been here before ....

But are you implying you would really come along to one that is outside of the SJ  'evil empire' series ?  ....  Now do we waste any more time suggesting a few for you to reject or not ?  .... So you would attend ?  Do you really really want to enter an event with more than half a dozen locals for company ? .....Ah thought so, it is still a determined 'No' from deepest Kent. ?   Why would anybody waste time listing them for you to pick over .....

Think 'keyboard class' continues to enjoy the handicap it deserves really - based on repeated and self inflicted 'no shows'.   Life is too short for 'carping' from the sidelines.  You seemingly have little intention of attending any winter events, SJ or otherwise, so why get so wound up over events that are not of any interest to you.   Just go sailing where you like, when you like with whoever, organise your own GRFi series complete with GRFi handicaps - and leave the rest of us to get on with what we enjoy. And if your model works well many would enter both.

.... and still maintain an open mind !    LOL        


Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 11 Nov 17 at 6:26pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Are there any stand alone events left which don't fall under the Sailjuice Mafia?

Does the Burnham Icicle still happen, that always used to be a key winter event back in the day, a bit like the Bloody Mary was.

It would be nice to have at least a couple of events that haven't been f**ked about by them.

the Frensham Frenzy is not SailJuice, so come and show us what you are made of. 


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http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great new book for Club Sailors here


Posted By: Steve411
Date Posted: 11 Nov 17 at 6:36pm
Originally posted by fab100


Originally posted by iGRF

Are there any stand alone events left which don't fall under the Sailjuice Mafia?

Does the Burnham Icicle still happen, that always used to be a key winter event back in the day, a bit like the Bloody Mary was.

It would be nice to have at least a couple of events that haven't been f**ked about by them.

the Frensham Frenzy is not SailJuice, so come and show us what you are made of.†


Stevie Nics at Northampton is usually good and a sell out despite being non-SJ.

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Steve B
RS300 411

https://www.facebook.com/groups/55859303803" rel="nofollow - RS300 Facebook page


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 11 Nov 17 at 9:22pm
Cracking event - highly recommended


Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 12 Nov 17 at 12:37am
The draycote dash is only up the road from me, but the thought of doing four races back to back on a cold winter day is not attractive. Am I the only one? 😀


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 12 Nov 17 at 8:06am
Itís not the Saturday that ever put me off, it was the non discardable pursuit race on the Sunday


Posted By: NickM99
Date Posted: 12 Nov 17 at 9:55am
The Solos have an annual "super Series" consisting of ten Championship style events spread throughout the year. 283 boats took part in at least one race and 53 met the qualification criteria of entering four events. Quite a healthy result.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 12 Nov 17 at 10:25am
Originally posted by NickM99

283 boats took part in at least one race and 53 met the qualification criteria of entering four events. Quite a healthy result.


And yet even that is 80% of the fleet not feeling that they are sufficiently interested in the series to do enough events to qualify.

I suppose a more rigorous analysis would exclude from the totals everyone who only does their home event and doesn't actually travel at all.

I do think its worth looking at numbers with things like this. Especially if you're involved in CA management.
Its worrying, looking back, that when I was involved in running a Class association I'm not sure we ever discussed what our priorities were formally. However the top ones must have been :
  • The Show
  • The Nationals
  • The Travellers

We were always painfully aware that we weren't doing enough for people who weren't that bothered by the formal events, but never really worked out what to do about it.

If you look at the numbers and also the polls I knocked up a while back it seems that most sailors are not especially bothered about class racing at their clubs, and are not even bothered about regular class racing in open series. The numbers strongly suggest that for most folk its an occasional treat. So, what are they bothered about, and how do those of us involved in the administration of the sport best support them? Because if we aren't supporting the majority of those involved, what are we doing it for?




Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 12 Nov 17 at 6:10pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

Itís not the Saturday that ever put me off, it was the non discardable pursuit race on the Sunday

It not the four races thatís the problem, its the fact they are all back to back. Never found sailing around for five/six hour with my own wee for company much funLOLLOL

On a more serious note, quite a few of my club members ( including me)would do it event if it was just a pursuit. Even though itís at draycote. 


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 12 Nov 17 at 6:18pm
Originally posted by zeon

The draycote dash is only up the road from me, but the thought of doing four races back to back on a cold winter day is not attractive. Am I the only one? 😀


I wouldn't do four races back to back on a good day, when did all this bollox start?


All no doubt decided for the benefit of the organising factions.




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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 12 Nov 17 at 6:23pm
Originally posted by Cirrus

...But are you implying you would really come along to one that is outside of the SJ† 'evil empire' series ?† ....†


So, are you implying I wouldn't or haven't?

I don't go to your gerrymandered SJ series because the boats I own are out handicapped, they not being important enough as 'classes' to feature in an industry dominated event like that, where they organise the system to attract numbers nor are they Bandits like the boats you sail.

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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 12 Nov 17 at 7:04pm
Originally posted by iGRF

I wouldn't do four races back to back on a good day, when did all this bollox start?
All no doubt decided for the benefit of the organising factions.


I recall an AGM on a nice warm summer evening, and the class members voting to get as much racing in as possible the next year and have lots of races.

And I also recall, the next year, the fleet sneaking in for lunch or a tea break at every possible opportunity.

For the organisers I would have thought back to back races were the last thing you'd want, since your support crews spend endless hours on the water, and you're minimising the opportunity to sell food and drink to the competitors.


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 12 Nov 17 at 7:55pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by NickM99

283 boats took part in at least one race and 53 met the qualification criteria of entering four events. Quite a healthy result.


And yet even that is 80% of the fleet not feeling that they are sufficiently interested in the series to do enough events to qualify.

I suppose a more rigorous analysis would exclude from the totals everyone who only does their home event and doesn't actually travel at all.

I do think its worth looking at numbers with things like this. Especially if you're involved in CA management.
Its worrying, looking back, that when I was involved in running a Class association I'm not sure we ever discussed what our priorities were formally. However the top ones must have been :
  • The Show
  • The Nationals
  • The Travellers

We were always painfully aware that we weren't doing enough for people who weren't that bothered by the formal events, but never really worked out what to do about it.

If you look at the numbers and also the polls I knocked up a while back it seems that most sailors are not especially bothered about class racing at their clubs, and are not even bothered about regular class racing in open series. The numbers strongly suggest that for most folk its an occasional treat. So, what are they bothered about, and how do those of us involved in the administration of the sport best support them? Because if we aren't supporting the majority of those involved, what are we doing it for?




Do think maybe the noise of numbers is hiding one very salient observation.... that being that a large proportion of those who are actively handicap sailing and contributing to your stats, arenít really racing in the traditional sense, they are simply sailing around in unison, a competitive cruise... the equivalent of the sportive rider or Sunday peloton; maybe the fitness class participant? as such, itís no wonder they arenít target demographic for travelling around and all the hassle that goes with it??


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 12 Nov 17 at 8:03pm
So, are you implying I wouldn't or haven't?

1.   Prove us wrong then .... Surely better than bashing the keyboard.  I'll buy the beer.
2)  Yes .... 

And what on earth is wrong with the handicaps (PN or GL for that matter)  on 'your' classes ?



Posted By: elzorillo
Date Posted: 12 Nov 17 at 10:43pm
Originally posted by JimC

 We were always painfully aware that we weren't doing enough for people who weren't that bothered by the formal events, but never really worked out what to do about it.

I dont get this statement.. If they arent bothered with organised class racing, preferring to simply tag along with the infrequent sunday club race, why waste your time fretting over them? Surely much better to concentrate your limited time on those who actively support the class rather than worry about those who clearly dont want your assistance.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 13 Nov 17 at 4:32am
1) because we wanted to be the association for the whole class, not just a little clique.
2) because we wanted their subscriptions
3) because we were a small class with a limited pool of secondhand boats and wanted to encourage as much activity as possible.
4) because we wanted to think that we could encourage them to become more active in the class



Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 13 Nov 17 at 8:09am
4 great reasons, Jim.

From my experience, with a small class it seems possible to have "bursts" of success, but then things settle back again.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 13 Nov 17 at 8:28am
Originally posted by Rupert

From my experience, with a small class it seems possible to have "bursts" of success, but then things settle back again.


Completely agree, but maybe CA management challenges is a different topic.


Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 13 Nov 17 at 10:27am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by iGRF

I wouldn't do four races back to back on a good day, when did all this bollox start?
All no doubt decided for the benefit of the organising factions.


I recall an AGM on a nice warm summer evening, and the class members voting to get as much racing in as possible the next year and have lots of races.

And I also recall, the next year, the fleet sneaking in for lunch or a tea break at every possible opportunity.

For the organisers I would have thought back to back races were the last thing you'd want, since your support crews spend endless hours on the water, and you're minimising the opportunity to sell food and drink to the competitors.


+1 for competitors sneaking ashore when they can, I've seen this on two race days, never mind 4 race days!

+1 for the hosting club issues

IMO this is very much like those who sit at the AGM (often held at the nationals) and say they will drive to the ends of the earth next year to compete on open meeting traveller circuit events, then when that meeting at the other end of the country roles around and they're looking at having to book a day off from work Friday and coming back late Sunday with an uncertain forecast .... find 'fixture congestion' has taken place in their heads and wallets and leaves the organising club with a dissapointing turn out for all the volunteers and effort put in.

Regional trophies are a nice to have for classes with regional distribution to match.

Handicap events make good for everyone else and while they are few and far between, provide a great and pretty simple to plan for alternative, IMO.


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 13 Nov 17 at 12:16pm
The bottom line on all this is some enjoy and will travel to 'away' events and some do not.   It is their choice but if they are not 'into it' boring the pants off the rest of us with justifications either personally related or 'general' as to why they don't want get out more often, or at all, is simply dull.  Of course it was ever thus ....

Nothing wrong with club racing - if you prefer.

Now it does not matter if you are talking about handicap events or 'purist' single class ones seemingly.  However there does seem to be real positive growth in multi-class handicap events and a relative decline in the single class ones and regular club racing.   Can only be bacause they are increasingly more attractive to the competitors and host clubs or they are just better marketed.



Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 13 Nov 17 at 11:25pm
Or itís the natural effects of a consolidated market ... when travelling to get your fix is your thing (some do, some donít... good analysis btw, but Iíd add Ďkeeniesí of less popular classes have traditionally been prepared to earn their class racing with more miles), I do wonder how long the reality of handicap racing will hold that interest...??!   The glee of Ďbetter marketedí handicap events might just be small battle victories in a losing war perhaps?


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 13 Nov 17 at 11:52pm
I do wonder how long the reality of handicap racing will hold that interest...??!

Not the point though.  It is not a mutually exclusive decision..... many/most of us will be doing our own class events as well ...major Opens, Inlands and Nationals.   Handicap racing is hardly new or novel in the 'mix' and has already been around for a long long time   ..... But I guess there will always be those who only need or seek the challenge, 'excitement' and regularity of the Oh so predictable local pecking order on that stunning local water seeing the same old faces each and every time ... next Sunday and the following Sunday after that and the one that follows ad infinitum ...

Still there is always the keyboard one-design class for a bit of variety .... or mowing the grass.   LOL


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 14 Nov 17 at 9:47am
Mutual exclusivity is interesting.  

I know of several classes which have used the SJ series, or a picked a few of them, to act as their 'Winter Series'.... I'm not suggesting this is either right or wrong, or positive or negative; (opinion on this is rather moot),  but it is symptomatic of consolidation where stand alone, or shared class racing regattas, are not sustainable for some classes.  




Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 14 Nov 17 at 10:12am
Originally posted by turnturtle

symptomatic of consolidation where stand alone, or shared class racing regattas, are not sustainable for some classes.

Oh nonsense. Class events have never been held over the winter.


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 14 Nov 17 at 10:18am
Oh nonsense. Class events have never been held over the winter.

Exactly ....


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 14 Nov 17 at 11:16am
I'm trying to actually quantify why it is that i don't travel, it's been three years as my facebook page reminded me today since that FOM. I had promised myself I'd do the Solution Nationals, but a wedding came along to scotch that, then I thought maybe this year I'll do one of those SJ events, then this gap came about between my regular sailing and now.

Then there's the question of the plug having come off the trailer board and not sure if I have the right number plate, and the difficulty getting number plates for trailer boards these days, then there's the sail it's a bit knackered to take on big water areas, then there's the 'who else is going I might know' question, not that that worries me particularly, I've never been short of the ability to make new friends, but it helps just dragging boats about here and there, so travelling as a pair is always easier than going single.

So I'm going to suggest that might be part of the reason, the trend away from double handers probably reduces the numbers that travel, it is more hassle travelling as Billy No Mate and even if two of you travel in cars side by side, it's not the same.
Then there is also the question of being asked and what is exactly the upside, what's to be gained? Time was, it would be experience, but at our age are we really so devoid of experience we want to endure the M20/M26/M25 <insert appropriate Mway>/Eastern European TIR sideswipe experience for pleasure?
So it gets to the point there are more reasons not to go than there are in favour, so it's easier to find further excuses to back the decision to stay put and get in the line up to do battle once more with the Miracle Mums and Mirror embryos down the puddle.

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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 14 Nov 17 at 12:00pm
Originally posted by Cirrus

Oh nonsense. Class events have never been held over the winter.

Exactly ....

so you guys are seriously suggesting that some classes don't utilise these events as part of their winter programme???

http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/175306/RS200-Winter-Warm-Up

https://www.d-zerosailing.org/d-zero-winter-series-20172018/

http://www.rsaerosailing.org/index.asp?p=forum&fid=7&tid=7527

all a bit different from the Solo Super Series which runs through the winter:

https://www.solosailing.org.uk/event-series/super-series/2017/

or some of the larger winter champs in classes like the Laser or Merlin Rocket.


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 14 Nov 17 at 12:04pm
"Next up in the UK this Winter is the RS Aero Winter Series which will be up to 10 events chosen from some of the most popular mixed class winter events, spread around the country and starting with the Brass Monkey at Yorkshire Dales SC on 27th December."

from a front page article.....  


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 14 Nov 17 at 1:01pm
I think the point is that because there are a series of events some classes have chosen to run a winter series off the back of them. This is what the D-Zero class has done and continues to do.

If there were not these big events it is unlikely we would run anything.

As a side note anyone know if the Steve Nicks is happening in 2018? Still nothing on their website about it.


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR188
Ex Rooster 8.1 '11'
Ex Laser 167534
Ex Blaze 655


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 14 Nov 17 at 1:25pm
Originally posted by jeffers


If there were not these big events it is unlikely we would run anything.



So you wouldn't for example, think to highlight 3 or 4 weekends/Sundays in advance at Grafham to boost the local fleet race and maybe offer some cross-over / wrap-around training?  £20 a weekend into the tin....  Naturally with a Thursday night green or red flag on the facebook group / email list depending on the forecast???   

It's a rhetorical question of course, and by no means meant as a criticism.  My point is that consolidation into the SJ series is the default option now for a lot of class winter programmes, but there are and always were other options that might be worth re-visiting at your (or any other) class committee meetings.  



Posted By: Steve411
Date Posted: 14 Nov 17 at 2:04pm
Originally posted by jeffers

I think the point is that because there are a series of events some classes have chosen to run a winter series off the back of them. This is what the D-Zero class has done and continues to do.

If there were not these big events it is unlikely we would run anything.

As a side note anyone know if the Steve Nicks is happening in 2018? Still nothing on their website about it.

On the NSC website, but the online entry isn't open yet. http://www.northamptonsailingclub.org/index.asp?selection=Calendar&cy=2018" rel="nofollow - http://www.northamptonsailingclub.org/index.asp?selection=Calendar&cy=2018


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Steve B
RS300 411

https://www.facebook.com/groups/55859303803" rel="nofollow - RS300 Facebook page


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 14 Nov 17 at 3:34pm
so you guys are seriously suggesting that some classes don't utilise these events as part of their winter programme???

Your contention of consolidation is turning into a surreal circular argument.   You don't support the SJ series one moment but now point out that some classes utilise the excellent organisation and format - as class events within the SJ events.  Further are you really sugegsting that these winter events are now somehow superior to the summer programmes of the vast majority of classes ?   That is very certainly not true.....

Does it matter  if they are used by some classes and are not for others anyway?  The underlying point is that winter handicap event sailing is GROWING and gaining in support and popularity fast.  Attendance is well up and beyond that managed by the constituent stand-alone versions enjoyed in previous decades.  Many events sell out well before the first visiting boat is hitched to a trailer ....This is simply NOT evidence of  sport consolidation or even decline as you have suggested.  That may be happening at Summer single-event opens in some classes, but that is a different issue.  It has very little at all to do with winter attendance at these SJ and similar events

But of course if you are now becomming convinced that the SJ series can play a useful role to all vibrant and practive classes then why on earth not do a few yourself this winter  ?    Wink


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 14 Nov 17 at 4:18pm
I'm not concerning myself with positives or negatives, neither am I trying to personalise it in any way.  I am simply suggesting that rather than looking to run (or share with similar craft) a winter programme consisting of winter championships, winter opens, icicle races, winter training days and all the other myriad of names for meeting up that have come and gone over the years; a lot of classes are defaulting to the SJ series under the auspices of PY for their winter programme - this is consolidation whichever way you cut it.   

I'll leave it to others to draw their own conclusions if this is positive or not for competitive sailing, or at the very least, the classes they sail.   

Personally my favourite winter 'events' were class organised training days in several one designs I've owned - I always got far more enjoyment out of them than travelling to a.n.other pond to do a handicap race, but each to their own.    


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 14 Nov 17 at 4:41pm
What evidence is there that winter handicap sailing is growing?  Years ago, my mates and I used to go on winter memberships to a local gravel pit club - this was always PY based, but I can't really remember caring for the results to much outside of whatever class I/we happened to be sailing at the time.   The local membership always made us very welcome, and of course, reciprocity was on order for a couple of the larger sailing weeks in the summer on the coast.  

I don't think this model for sea clubs and inland co-existence was that abnormal was it?  I'd say a good 50% of the racing membership of our club de-camped to the pond, or sought training through class associations (adults) and the better kids in youth squads etc.

Does this still happen now?  Or have sea clubs extended their seasons?  Do more sea club kids get into squads, thus don't do that much local winter handicap sailing?  

Portland always seems thronging with activity whenever I've been down there for windsurfing.  (I only tend to go in winter months btw).  And that's youth and junior class race training, not handicap sailing.  There's a hell of lot more than 10 or so guys and 10 or so girls down there like the youth squads of the 80's and 90's.   There's enough colloquial evidence that the RYA plunder the youth of local club racing the rest of year, I'd bet a pound to a penny the same accusations stand up for winter sailing.

I think you need to be very careful simply comparing the entry stats from say a Bloody Mary pre-amalgamation and post to come to the conclusion winter handicap sailing is GROWING Mike.

These stats might work in isolation to showcase the event in more positive lights itself, but I wouldn't draw conclusions that it represents a major shift change in OVERALL participation and reversing OVERALL decline - quite the contrary, it shows that this is all that's really left for many adult racers looking to get away at the weekend in winter- in other words, consolidation.  


Posted By: JohnJack
Date Posted: 14 Nov 17 at 4:55pm
Having done a few years travelling in a class where the main bulk of boats were the opposite end of the country (most events required at least a 200 mile round trip) I found that it got old very quickly. Especially for us few in the mid fleet who were a performance gap behind them at the front. The Class Opens we attended seemed to attract mainly the top 10 or so sailors in the class, then one maybe two mid fleet and if lucky one lower fleet/newby. We found that we were sailing around by our selves quite allot hanging on to the coat tails of those in front for a lap or two but being a distance off those behind. In the end it didn't seem to be worth the effort as we werent getting any decent racing. Changed class and mainly club race now with the odd excursion to local opens. Its the mid fleet which seems to have collapsed. Not enough carrot maybe.


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 14 Nov 17 at 5:08pm
There is nothing wrong ... with agreeing to differ on this one !

You are not convinved about the SJ and similar events growth in recent seasons and what it indicates or the significance of it....   Your conclusions are possibly because you, as an individual, simply don't like to attend/compete in them currently.  Nothing wrong with that.   

Some of us might however think you and others are missing out.  The world of dinghy racing has always been changing - little can be assumed as being forever whether it is classes, technology or event organisation.  It is now, in part, about adapting or embracing these changes positively and growing with the 'new'.    And there is nothing wrong with that either !   



Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 14 Nov 17 at 5:30pm
Sea clubs have extended their season to the detriment of the winter pond sailing.

Seems daft because on the shoulders of the season the races are often cancelled where as you could have sailed on the pond.

The main issue with travellers series is people seem to have become lazy although traffic levels these days and the cost of fuel and other expenses have made the hurdle higher ... 

Plus of course people have more than one hobby these days ... less dedication ...




Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 14 Nov 17 at 6:18pm
Originally posted by Old Timer

Sea clubs have extended their season to the detriment of the winter pond sailing.

Seems daft because on the shoulders of the season the races are often cancelled where as you could have sailed on the pond.

The main issue with travellers series is people seem to have become lazy although traffic levels these days and the cost of fuel and other expenses have made the hurdle higher ... 

Plus of course people have more than one hobby these days ... less dedication ...



Not daft at all.  The sea is warmer in winter than the lake.

And in some parts (N Scotland) the sea can be the only option, given the amount of icing inland during the winter.


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 14 Nov 17 at 9:20pm
Well itís certainly true that when I was doing my bit for northern uni sailing, I actively pushed for our regional BUSA qualifier events to held on salt water or larger lake venues - the amount of lost time to no wind, ice breakers at the smaller ponds wasnít something I wanted to repeat. Fine for the uni opens... and not a problem to lose an hour or two in the morning over bacon, but for time sensitive events we just wanted to get the job done. We were lucky in that my uni sailed at South Shields who were sh*t hot at supporting us, plus Newcastle Uni sailed out of tynemouth SC- again a great club, and despite obvious rivalry,Newcastle Uni could keep their sh*t together and run a decent dayís sailing.


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 15 Nov 17 at 7:26am
Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by jeffers


If there were not these big events it is unlikely we would run anything.



So you wouldn't for example, think to highlight 3 or 4 weekends/Sundays in advance at Grafham to boost the local fleet race and maybe offer some cross-over / wrap-around training?  £20 a weekend into the tin....  Naturally with a Thursday night green or red flag on the facebook group / email list depending on the forecast???   

It's a rhetorical question of course, and by no means meant as a criticism.  My point is that consolidation into the SJ series is the default option now for a lot of class winter programmes, but there are and always were other options that might be worth re-visiting at your (or any other) class committee meetings.  


Probably not. The idea of the SJ series and the Sailing Southwest series is that they are at different clubs. Isnt that the whole point of this thread? it is titles Travellers Series after all.....

If the Grafham D-Zero fleet or another club decided to run something then the CA would help them to promote it.

Most people can still get their local fix at the weekend in the winter. Some are members of multiple clubs who run all year round just to do this (like our own esteemed Grumpf)....


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR188
Ex Rooster 8.1 '11'
Ex Laser 167534
Ex Blaze 655



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