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Your Club starts an Adopted Classes Only Policy

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12863
Printed Date: 23 Oct 17 at 12:51pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Your Club starts an Adopted Classes Only Policy
Posted By: JimC
Subject: Your Club starts an Adopted Classes Only Policy
Date Posted: 24 Sep 17 at 2:38pm
Just a thought. Your club starts an adopted only classes policy, and the list is:
Laser
Laser Radial
Solo
RS400
RS200
(5 most popular classes in the PY list)

I've left youth classes out of this for simplicity.

What would you do?



Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 24 Sep 17 at 2:54pm
I've created a matching poll about http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12864&title=a-club-has-an-adopted-classes-only-policy" rel="nofollow - whether an adopted classes only policy would influence your choice of club , but the number of variables in choice of club are so large its hard to get a good question set.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 24 Sep 17 at 3:43pm
I choose the class(es) I sail first and would only consider joining a club with a adopted class policy if I already sailed or wanted to sail one of those classes, the choice of boat would come first (and none on the list are classes I would choose to sail except, possibly, the Solo).

A couple of clubs local to me used to have such a policy but both now have a handicap fleet. 

I'm not sufficiently attracted to any of the classes with fleet racing locally to choose to sail one and choice of club, for me, mostly depends on other factors.


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 24 Sep 17 at 3:51pm
Leave. Simple. Smile And this from a person whos second boat is a laser. 


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 24 Sep 17 at 3:57pm
Minisprint
Enterprise
Mirror
Tinker Traveller
Handicap club only


Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 24 Sep 17 at 5:09pm
The first club I joined in the early 70s on the Thames had a length limit of 14ft, so it sort of did the same thing all Ents, Merlins, Fireflies. They lifted the limit and now and the dinghy park is full of Wayferers. Almost a one design club.


Posted By: drifter
Date Posted: 24 Sep 17 at 6:37pm
Does this forum work for anyone on Firefox?

Anyway on topic. Must be a twohanded class for non-spinnaker boats. Grad, Ent or Albacore I'd say. 


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Stewart


Posted By: The Moo
Date Posted: 24 Sep 17 at 6:41pm
Originally posted by zeon


Leave. Simple.†Smile†And this from a person whos second boat is a laser.†


Ditto. TBH if our Club tried to adopt such a policy it would be curtains I am sure.

Cracking sailing today. Warm, sunny and a steady wind. Regular series pursuit race which included a smattering of the following: - Comet, Lightning, British Moth, Enterprise, Nat 12, Supernova, Aero 7 and K1. (No Lasers today) Fascinating race to sail and the spectators were totally engrossed. All sailors happy with their chosen boat regardless of the final outcome and I don't believe final results were PY influenced.

Personally I want to compete against all of the sailors on the water and I would want them all to be in boats they want to sail


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 24 Sep 17 at 7:29pm
I put 'other'.
I have been a member of more than one club at a time before, and I'd do it again.


I'd also consider having one boat at a club and another for circuit/winter series elsewhere/odd events.
If I was younger and had more commitment, this would be a likely option.
As it happens both my current boats are on the list, but getting class racing in the Laser and enjoyable, 'don't worry about the spreadsheet' PY racing in the 400 is a good balance.

All of these boats are just commodity lumps of plastic, give or take the odd wooden Solo.
The important thing is to look at the people, decide who you want to race against, then get a boat (or boats) to suit.
It would be nice to have a 2-hander on the list where you can get on the water for under a grand though.



Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 24 Sep 17 at 7:44pm
Depends how strong the club is, if it is at capacity I can see the case for promoting strong class racing, but I suspect that this is something that is easier to implement from inception rather that retroactively

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Somewhere between lies and truth lies the truth


Posted By: Gordon 1430
Date Posted: 25 Sep 17 at 7:37am
As on the other list no big person single hander. I currently own a 400 which is a bit of an old banger but would keep my Phantom to sail at Open meetings or have to join a separate club to race that. Twice as many duties to do, so could end up selling the 400 and moving club.

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Gordon
Phantom 1430


Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 25 Sep 17 at 8:38am
The final answer would depend for me on the classes picked by the club (I saw your list and I could find something there I could sail - I already have one)

However, my first likely response would be to change to an agreed class - if that was the way things went. When I moved to my current club I changed my main boat radically, not because the club has restricted classes, but because the main class I now sail is the one where I'm guaranteed good competitive fleet racing. That's far more important to me than the details of the boat I sail. To nick someone else's tag line the only real dinghy racing is fleet racing.


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Peter
Ex Cont 707
Laser 189635
DY 59


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 25 Sep 17 at 10:05am
Originally posted by RS400atC


It would be nice to have a 2-hander on the list where you can get on the water for under a grand though.


Yup, +1


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: Gordon 1430
Date Posted: 25 Sep 17 at 10:55am
Apollo duck has a 400 for under a grand.
I think under 2k is a reasonable  wish and I bought my 400 for £1500 although I have spent some money on it since.
Still think you need a big peoples toy after all according to statistics are people not getting slowly taller and heavier.


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Gordon
Phantom 1430


Posted By: patj
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 1:25pm
It would be the death of our club and many others if they prescribed that list - only about half a dozen Lasers would be left as even the last Solo has just moved house to far away. Asymmetric kites simply don't work well on the little puddles and ditches of Britain. Albacores are the biggest fleet (all four of us) of double handers at our club, the rest is a handicap medley of generally older boats and it's allowing that mix that keeps the club alive.


Posted By: GybeFunny
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 1:58pm
Having been a member in the past of such a club (Wembley SC) I would have no issue changing class to one of the adopted classes if my current club were to implement such a policy.


Posted By: MerlinMags
Date Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 12:16pm
I need a option in the poll for "Moan a lot and then go for the cheapest option".



Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 12:26pm
What is interesting is a club is really a group of people who like to do stuff together ...

So ... it would seem if that group changed a rule many people would leave the group.

Seems odd that people are more wedded to their particular class than their group of friends.


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 1:40pm
I'd always sail whatever class the local fleet was. 

I can appreciate a nice boat, but at the end of the day, no sail boats are seriously quick. Long term enjoyment, for me, comes from competitive racing. 

Having said that, having non-approved boat does add to a club. It brings new people new classes forward, and I don't think we should be resistant to change.

My gripe is when 'non-fleet' racing is held to the detriment of fleet racing for the sake of being inclusive. 

My ideal club would be one with a couple of single handers and a couple of double handers. All fleets getting more racers than there are support crew (race team and safety) would get their own start and choice of course. Then one 'menagerie' fleet. Menagerie fleet would always start last and always sail a simple course, there would be no results for them. The menagerie fleet would give opportunity for new fleets to build until they reach a critical mass where the club can give them their own start.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 2:37pm
Originally posted by mozzy

...new fleets to build until they reach a critical mass

There doesn't seem to be a critical mass...

My observation is that its every bit as hard if not harder to maintain class racing in a club as it is to introduce it. If folk valued fleet racing then there would indeed be a critical mass, and once a fleet got to a reasonable size it would grow itself, or at least maintain, but it doesn't seem to be like that. It seems to take a keen organiser to set up a new fleet, and if that keen organiser moves on for any reason, then unless another turns up the fleet will most likely fade away again.


Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 2:41pm
Do we think people deliberately sail odd classes so as to mask their own performance shortcomings .... blame the results on the wrong conditions for the PY?




Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 3:03pm
Originally posted by 2547

Do we think people deliberately sail odd classes so as to mask their own performance shortcomings .... blame the results on the wrong conditions for the PY?



No. People sail boats they enjoy sailing. On Sunday we had 5 solos, 3 Flying Fifteens, 2 Europes, 2 Vareos, 1 Albacore and 1 Hadron H2 in our handicap racing. Each race was around an hour long with the boats coming over the line between 53 minutes and 62 minutes. It was close racing with multiple boats at each mark and plenty of changes in who was leading. Brilliant, tactical, fun and I am dying for the weekend to come around again.

When I first got my Hadron there were those who were excited to see a guy with something different that he loved sailing and there were those that said silly things about how I should have bought a Solo or Vareo. Who cares what I sail - I love it, it suits me and the way I sail. Closing down a club to a few classes that the cliques like to sail would kill the sport.


Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 3:04pm
so in effect a two tier system, those that can / do conform and those who don't / can't?!

why not have all in racing, banded in a sensible ranges, and have one design results pulled from within in those groups until critical mass for them to have their own start.

if they have the right boat and ethos the fleet will build from within the ranks, those that lie outside of it wont be made to feel like they don't belong, however unintentional your action maybe.


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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 3:09pm
Originally posted by Oli

...why not have all in racing, banded in a sensible ranges, and have one design results pulled from within in those groups until critical mass for them to have their own start.


That's what most clubs do isn't it?


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 3:13pm
Originally posted by 2547

Do we think people deliberately sail odd classes so as to mask their own performance shortcomings

No, I think people sail what they think will be fun.

It does seem to me though that if a club fleet gets in a very rigid heirarchy, -
Fred almost always wins, Jane is usually second, Peter third, that sort of thing then it is quite likely people will drift away.


Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 3:33pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Oli

...why not have all in racing, banded in a sensible ranges, and have one design results pulled from within in those groups until critical mass for them to have their own start.


That's what most clubs do isn't it?

and i thought i was being subtle Wink

seriously though do "most" clubs actually do that?  or do they tether potential one design fleets within the handicap fleet?


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Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 3:36pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by mozzy

...new fleets to build until they reach a critical mass

There doesn't seem to be a critical mass...

My observation is that its every bit as hard if not harder to maintain class racing in a club as it is to introduce it.
I really meant critical mass as in worth while having their own start etc. It was a poor use of English, sorry.

When a race is worth running is debatable, but I often think if there are more people running the race than taking part in it, then it's not sustainable. I also think if the waiting time for other is greater than the racing time for competitors then it's not sustainable (extra start for two boat in an hour race enables 2x60 minutes of racing= 120 minutes. However, if 30 people in other fleets have to wait 5 minutes whilst the extra start is put in to the sequence = 30x5 = 150 minutes).

^That's my rule of thumb as to whether racing was worthwhile, based volunteer run club racing. I have zero evidence to back it up. 

However, I do think there is a certain degree of self sustaining 'critical mass' to fleets. If there wasn't we wouldn't see any class racing at all. From my experience it is much easier to maintain a class than start one up, and the more people you have in a class the more likely you are to have another enthusiastic volunteer in your midst to keep it alive. However, I take you're point it's not critical mass in the true nuclear analogy as it is possible for a class to fail even once it has reached high numbers (possibly no class ever reaches true critical mass?). 





Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 3:39pm
Originally posted by 2547

Do we think people deliberately sail odd classes so as to mask their own performance shortcomings .... blame the results on the wrong conditions for the PY?



Maybe some, but not very many. Far more often people just don't care so much about knowing exactly how good they are. They know they're middle to back of the fleet, are happy and accept that but just want to sail something more fun. 



Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 4:04pm
Originally posted by Oli

so in effect a two tier system, those that can / do conform and those who don't / can't?!

why not have all in racing, banded in a sensible ranges, and have one design results pulled from within in those groups until critical mass for them to have their own start.

if they have the right boat and ethos the fleet will build from within the ranks, those that lie outside of it wont be made to feel like they don't belong, however unintentional your action maybe.

Kind of, but as already suggested, you're getting back to the slow, medium fast handicap racing most clubs have. It soon becomes very messy. 

I wouldn't record results, and I wouldn't band them. I would start them last and I wouldn't even run a start unless there was and 10+ boats. 

A start is really the only thing you need to grow a fleet (you can agree a course on land, note down where you finished if you want results). If a boat is really something worthwhile it will grow from there. 




Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 4:31pm
Originally posted by H2

Who cares what I sail - I love it, it suits me and the way I sail. Closing down a club to a few classes that the cliques like to sail would kill the sport.
People do care, and it's not because they want to have cliques, it's because they want simple racing on a level playing field. 

If there are 5 solos and you join with a solo, you give another boat for 5 people to race against. You start with them and finish with them, and as it's class racing there's no need to worry about writing down finish times, or lap times. 

If there are 5 solo's and you join with a hadron, you add no direct competition for anyone. If you then expect handicap racing it makes being PRO much hard, duty teams need increasing, the fleets spread out more and there is more dead time. 

I think declaring it okay because the hadron is what you love to sail and calling out other who are negative as cliquish is a bit unfair. 

Now, I'm not saying we should exclude these people. But, what often happens is in the name of being inclusive we bend over backwards and no one recognises the impact it has on existing racing. It adds complexity to running races and means people have to wait around longer. The people in the solo fleet drift away from sailing, because the time they spend waiting around on the water or doing duties outweighs the time they actually spend racing. 




Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 4:34pm
sorry ive just joined another club as that sounds rather elitist...

seems to me that your thinking people either want to race or are just getting started.  what about the middle ground where people can race but dont want or cannot get into a solo or whatever so they stick to their odd ball boat but cant race?  thats like 90% of the clubs sailors told to go jump.

why not have it all? a od fleet with active fleet rep who can maintain the class, a handicap fleet who dont conform to the former, and a cruise round the cans fleet who are perhaps new / learning / intimidated by the racing aspect but want to give it a go.

nothing wring with banding, it is how you band that can be an issue and lots get it very wrong through pure attachment to whats gone before so must be right'ism. It takes some careful thought and dialogue between classes but you could have real successful "box rule" fleets based on handicap and type.  Careful not to dilute too much unless mass exists.

how about fast / med / slow py split into asy / sym and further to trap / hike, if you have half a dozen or more of each then produce a separate start, if  not move them up a level until there is.


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Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 4:55pm
Originally posted by Oli

people can race but dont want or cannot get into a solo 
Unfortunately it's sport and it's physical. Getting to the right size and strength / flexibility is part of it. Sailing is probably one of the most diverse sport in terms of body shapes and with two handed boats you have a lot of scope to get the ideal weight.  

Originally posted by Oli

why not have it all? a od fleet with active fleet rep who can maintain the class, a handicap fleet who dont conform to the former, and a cruise round the cans fleet who are perhaps new / learning / intimidated by the racing aspect but want to give it a go.
Fine, but when you have more people on duty, or waiting around whilst the other fleets finish / start, then you have a problem. 

Originally posted by Oli

how about fast / med / slow py split into asy / sym and further to trap / hike, if you have half a dozen or more of each then produce a separate start, if  not move them up a level until there is.
We had / have this at HISC. I was part of the committee that moved away from just PY banding but more toward the type of course the boats wanted to sail. 

The problem at HISC is that on regular weekend races we don't have enough boats to justify the splits. Ouside of teh fleets we probably only getting 10 menagerie boats. You end up with a really long start sequence with fleets of 1-2s. Its then a nightmare to keep a track of. Broaden the fleets up and you have people waiting ages between races. 

To be clear, anyone in any boat would be welcome at my hypothetical club. It's important we give an opportunity for new boats and new people to enter the sport. I think providing one start for 'all comers' is all the opportunity needed and a decent boat with enthusiasm will grow it from there. They can make it what they wish be recording results, agreeing box rules informally off the water. Once they have decent groundswell of support, the club can formalise it and new fleet is born; no need for a committee to second guess and grade. 



Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 5:12pm
I think the poll demonstrates that any club that set out to treat some of its members as second class citizens will speedily find that those folk cease to be members at all.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 5:55pm
My club runs fleet in with Handicap odd jobs, one start, fleet gets its result and also its handicap result, one OOD two on safety, small lake.


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 6:06pm
As someone who is working to build a fleet at my local club. Gaining critical mass is not easy. Our Laser fleet rarely gets more then 4 or 5 on a Sunday. our Solo fleet the same (these both have 'fleet status'). Do I want to sail either class....no. If the club said I had to I would simply move clubs.

We now have 10 boats in the club, what we are trying to do is get everyone out regularly. Our handicap fleet captain is trying to force us to our own start. I am resisting as the week in week out participation just isn't there yet. This is for a variety of reasons. One thing that is definite is that those who have the boats love them. A fair few also have other boats the like to sail 9the joys of multiple boat ownership). they also like to travel with their boats 2 (4 of them were at YDSC at the weekend).

Love it or hate it Handicap racing is here to stay unless you happen to like or want to sail a class that has 'fleet' status at your local club.

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Paul
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D-Zero GBR188
Ex Rooster 8.1 '11'
Ex Laser 167534
Ex Blaze 655


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 6:35pm
We have 12 Comets and slightly more Lasers, we have same issue that Jeffers points out, we rarely get more than half a dozen of either, again multi boat owner issues, depending on weather they will either sail their Comet or their Laser, if a relative or friend turns up they will race something else, this is mainly Laser sailors.


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 7:00pm
Originally posted by JimC

any club that set out to treat some of its members as second class citizens will speedily find that those folk cease to be members at all.
Second class citizens is a bit extreme; we're talking about fleet starts not apartheid. 

I think the scenario I suggest is actually far better for emerging fleets.

Look at this way, you actually need very little to get a race going. Possibly the only thing a club really needs to supply is marks and safety cover. I've done plenty of impromptu racing with rabbit runs (gate starts) although a start line and timing is helpful, especially on restricted waters. 

Typically when you introduce a new class to a club you get assigned a fleet based on your PY. The courses are often the wrong configuration, the PY makes you un-competitive. And you can't tempt people to adopt your boat as the set racing just doesn't show off it's benefits. The prizes are handed out based on a PY no one really agrees with. 

If the club just provides a start, you can set your own course, record your own results. Agree the rules onshore. Create loose class bandings, or full on box development box rules. You can play around with race configuration to find something that really works. You're far more able to experiment and develop a format.

Once you get enough of you signing up to the fleet / class / banding to the point where starts are crowded and recording results is more difficult (10 boats plus), then the club can provide that too and give you  'class start' and recognise the winners with trophies and prizes.

Originally posted by JimC

I think the pole demonstrates
I'm not so sure. Are the 25 people going to other clubs a negative vote for the system? None of these people are saying they'd stop sailing, so presumably they're just moving to a club where their boat is sailed. 

On the poll only three people have unequivocally voted against the system. (I'd give up sailing + I sail one of those but would move clubs anyway). 

Also, if you'd rephrased it to fictitious classes the 7 people who sail those classes would have been able to vote... and as they're people who already sail popular classes, I'd wager most of them would change class, or change to a club that sailed that class.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 7:31pm
Mozzy,
having same start but then going off on their own course could cause havoc if both fleets came to a mark one on a port mark the other a starboard mark.
When I set a course, I have a set of guidelines to work within ie first leg always a beat, first mark always port, so many tacks and so many gybes, this wouldn't alter regardless of type of boat.


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 7:42pm
Originally posted by 423zero

Mozzy,
having same start but then going off on their own course could cause havoc if both fleets came to a mark one on a port mark the other a starboard mark.
Ha yes, that would be an issue. But presumably the main fleets courses go up on the board, you could choose any of those marks with the same rounding. 

We're talking about getting classes up and running too, so like 10 boats max. If there are enough to cause havoc then there are enough for their own official start, course finish and prizes. 

In Chichester harbour we have a few clubs all using the same marks.. for that reason many of them have set roundings.

Originally posted by 423zero

When I set a course...this wouldn't alter regardless of type of boat.
Therein lie the problem with introducing new fleets / types of racing.  


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 7:44pm
Originally posted by JimC

I think the poll demonstrates that any club that set out to treat some of its members as second class citizens will speedily find that those folk cease to be members at all.

The poll suggests this forum might be biased toward wanting handicap racing.
Quelle surprise, it's the dinghy dev forum.
If you asked the same question on one of several single class forums which are at least as active as this one, I suspect you'd get a different answer.
Some people have said we have too many clubs.
Maybe we have too many clubs all doing the same thing, PY racing?


Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 8:17pm
It is possible to encourage the development of fleet racing without mandating it. Give certain classes the best boat park spots, lower fees, spots on the committee - whatever.


Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 8:41pm
Just let them start first, then they'll back in first for the hot food and showers before the hot water runs out



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Everything I say is my opinion, honest


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 10:07pm
Originally posted by A2Z

It is possible to encourage the development of fleet racing without mandating it. Give certain classes the best boat park spots, lower fees, spots on the committee - whatever.


Spots on the committee?   I thought you wanted to encourage them 😂


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 10:12pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

Originally posted by JimC

I think the poll demonstrates that any club that set out to treat some of its members as second class citizens will speedily find that those folk cease to be members at all.

The poll suggests this forum might be biased toward wanting handicap racing.
Quelle surprise, it's the dinghy dev forum.
If you asked the same question on one of several single class forums which are at least as active as this one, I suspect you'd get a different answer.
Some people have said we have too many clubs.
Maybe we have too many clubs all doing the same thing, PY racing?
When you actually look at the answer, only three people have unequivocally voted against the supported class idea.

The 26 boats moving club, suggests they favour their class more than their club. But not that they're against supported classes. But that's the point of the class racing, people would choose club on location and fleets sailed. 

Plus, what you've said. Of the people who do big fleet events, I reckon lots would like supported classes if you directed the question of them? 

Equally the poll doesn't capture the sailors who have have already left the sport because there is no local class racing (could be said for many youth / post grad sailors). 




Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 10:19pm
http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12864&title=a-club-has-an-adopted-classes-only-policy" rel="nofollow - This poll was intended to show another side of the story.
I don't doubt that you will be able to find an interpretation of both that matches your viewpoint.


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 10:35pm
Yeah, but again, not very well worded. Twenty six wouldn't choose that club, but how many would go to a club where there was class racing in their own boat? 

I'm not interpreting the poll to favour my view, I'm just saying all the information isn't there to conclude what you're saying. 

The other thing is, in my ideal club, it would be very open to new classes and formats. It's just that it would be under their own terms and not at the expense of class racing. There would be no 'adopted classes' or 'favoured boat' parking. The club would just a) protect existing class racing, 2) allow new classes to grow organically and shape their own racing.  


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 10:45pm
I'm not sure that you can do that, if you "allow new classes to grow" to the point where they gain fleet status that can only be at the "existing classes"?


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 11:07pm
I'm not attached to any class. Obviously it would be nice if new classes brought in sailors from elsewhere, best still if it attracted people who weren't sailing because there were no local suitable fleets.

However, if a new class grows and replaces an existing one, then so be it. That's progress too.

I don't think clubs should be rigidly attached to classes per see, but I do think they should promote fleet racing first and foremost. 


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 11:17pm
would a club benefit from a member who retires from sailing because their isn't a local club that sails his favoured boat, let the prima donna go.


Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 12:35am
Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by A2Z

It is possible to encourage the development of fleet racing without mandating it. Give certain classes the best boat park spots, lower fees, spots on the committee - whatever.


Spots on the committee?   I thought you wanted to encourage them 😂
Ah, but the person who chooses class racing even though the boat is less than ideal for them, is the likely the kind of person who likes to conform, likes organisation and likes to tell others what to do!
 



Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 12:37am
Touchť


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 9:10am
Originally posted by mozzy

However, if a new class grows and replaces an existing one, then so be it. That's progress too.

That's my point, what I was getting at is you can't 'allow new classes to grow and replace existing classes' while, at the same time 'protect existing classes' doing one means you can't be doing the other. IME most clubs do the former, even if it means sometimes only running handicap racing.

I don't think clubs should be rigidly attached to classes per see, but I do think they should promote fleet racing first and foremost. 

Agreed. IME most clubs strive to do that but with mixed success. 


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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 9:31am
Clubs that promote class racing are history, sorry get used to it.

Class racing just promotes the duckpond mentality and a regular pecking order as favoured by the RYA and their squad system, teaching everyone to know their place.

Class racing is total BS.

Better learn to race outside the constraints of 'class' racing, then, if you feel you're up to it maybe give it a go, but it is not the be all and end all. Same class racing defines people even more by their body shape and weight and of course physical fitness, which was not supposed to be the main criterion for sailing.

Any club or group trying to force it's desires on others will be short lived these days, times have changed.

I've watched two relative newcomers recently, one down the lake talked into a laser, he's as keen as mustard, but he hasn't moved anywhere close to the main fleet. The other were a couple of guys at Hythe they'd been struggling for a similar amount of time bringing up the rear in a bloody RS500, this season I sold them the Alto, and now they're up front, still making stupid errors, but every now and then the Alto gets them out of jail, back up the front, to watch what the better sailors are doing and yesterday they not only beat me over the water for a while we all thought they'd done it on handicap (another tidal drifter)and nobody could be more pleased than I, just berating them and demanding they give me the boat back. Now had that been a class of all of us in the same boat, it would never have happened, but now they have more confidence, now they want more and in maybe another season, if we were all in the same boat, maybe it might. It's all about expectation which you'll never give tail enders in a one design fleet.


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Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 10:18am
Originally posted by A2Z

 
Ah, but the person who chooses class racing even though the boat is less than ideal for them, is the likely the kind of person who likes to conform, likes organisation and likes to tell others what to do!
 
I think that's a lazy stereotype, it's the equivalent of saying anyone who doesn't sail an approved class is a handicap bandit who's afraid to compete directly for fear of being shown up. 

People choose class racing even when the boat is less than ideal for them because they want fleet racing and fleet racing is more fun. People who would much rather be mid fleet but have people to race against, than being in a 'perfect boat' not racing anyone at all. Not because they have some urge for acceptance. 

Equally, people encouraging fleet racing aren't doing it because they have some belief that everyone should be like them; but because they feel it provides better racing. 


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 10:32am
My experience is on a smallish lake sailing in the handicap fleet. I choose a boat that fits me (Hadron H2) rather than the predominate singlehander (solo) but I cannot remember the last race which did not involve very close duels on most legs and at most marks. I do not identify handicap racing as being out there on my own!! Perhaps its just on a smaller pond we are forced together more but my experience is that you can have your cake and eat it in that I can sail a boat that I love and enjoy close racing with other like minded people in a wide range of boats.


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 10:35am
Originally posted by iGRF

Clubs that promote class racing are history, sorry get used to it.
Lots of club are struggling and i think the problem isn't really about handicap or fleets; it's about time and cost. 

Most clubs promote class racing in some way. 

Originally posted by iGRF

Class racing is total BS.
Which is why people travel further and pay more money to race in fleets? 

Whats the biggest handicap regatta? Seems to me people will do handicap racing when there is nothing else on offer, or for fun one off days. But you don't see many people giving up a weeks holiday for handicap racing. 


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 10:59am
Originally posted by mozzy

...and fleet racing is more fun

Very dogmatic assertions, but I submit there is very little evidence that supports them.

Some sailors do indeed travel distances for the occasional class event, but observations I've made at my clubs suggest that its only a small minority, and most of those will do at most one or two local events a year.

I was very surprised by how much the poll results came out against the concept of clubs having approved classes only, but on reflection I shouldn't have been, considering how few clubs there are left who have such limits.


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 11:03am
Originally posted by mozzy

Originally posted by A2Z

 
Ah, but the person who chooses class racing even though the boat is less than ideal for them, is the likely the kind of person who likes to conform, likes organisation and likes to tell others what to do!
 
I think that's a lazy stereotype, it's the equivalent of saying anyone who doesn't sail an approved class is a handicap bandit who's afraid to compete directly for fear of being shown up. 

People choose class racing even when the boat is less than ideal for them because they want fleet racing and fleet racing is more fun. People who would much rather be mid fleet but have people to race against, than being in a 'perfect boat' not racing anyone at all. Not because they have some urge for acceptance. 

Equally, people encouraging fleet racing aren't doing it because they have some belief that everyone should be like them; but because they feel it provides better racing. 

Also creates a better atmosphere at the bar afterwards, as if you have closer racing there will be more experiences to share over a beer.  Often after our club Solo races the winner picks up the bar tab, particularly if it is an infrequent winner, which can be expensive; not sure if this can happen in the Handicap fleet, since nobody knows the results.

We have often attended championships as a group, have away weekends at open meetings, have organised class ski trips and have fleet suppers.  Again, I struggle to see the opportunity to create these bonds in a Handicap fleet where the active members are disparate and by their nature do not want to get organised.

However, I do buy into the need for a Handicap fleet, it is quite clear from this forum that there are those who prefer the inevitable vagaries of a performance based handicap system to throw them some crumbs, in exchange for the opportunity to sail the boat of their choice.

I would also suggest that handicap fleets tend to have lower %age turnouts than class fleets; certainly when cutting the grass in our boat park, these tend to be the boats full of water, flat tyres and surrounded by nettles that the regulars to "working parties" have to shift around.

Truth is that a successful club is likely to embrace both types of racing, though if resources were tight, for instance a limit on boat park space, there could be a good case to promote well considered classes above handicap racing.


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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 11:07am
People class race, because they are told to, this forum never stops banging on about it. Old guard clubs never stop banging on about it either. Why? Classes like to protect or promote which ever way you view it, themselves.

Big handicap events? Those great lakes things are they not handicap? Our big local derby round the island event, it's handicap.

It depends where you come from, you are lucky to sail at a big club like Hayling, not that it's my particular cup of tea, always found the place very impersonal, but I guess there must be a regular bunch down there that get to enjoy a true 'club' feel.

If you are young, setting out on the trail of great expectation and everyone tells you you'll only be really recognised if you race in a class, then that's what will happen.

I guess it's a question of experiences, we also had big OD classes back in the day, Windsurfer class had two hundred strong lines, but the Open class fleets could sometimes number three, four or five hundred and there was more kudos winning an 'Open' event than being a one class champion, because the element of equipment choice and rig tuning played a part and the open boards of the time were more technical to sail.

I guess a bit like comparing the Solo champion with the foiling moth champ, us oldies might view the Solo champ the better sailor whereas the younger element might revere the moth rider, horses for courses.

Personally I liken handicap racing more with our old Open class scene back in the div 2 and raceboard heydays and my point about giving slower less experienced sailors faster boats is relevant.

In my mind a really good sailor is one who can do well in both arenas, like that guy Nick Craig, he seems to punt about a bit although I suspect it's a lot to do with a long gangly shape, not that I've ever met him and even if you are the right shape you still have to learn the trade and skill set.

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Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 11:18am
I actually agree and can see why the open winner was more revered than the class winner. 

I obviously wasn't there and have never done it, so I shall defer to you, but as you describe it above, isn't it like moth or some sort of development boat? Half the competition is done off the water developing and selecting gear. That's not a bad thing and I could get behind that. But to me, that is fleet racing as long as it's mass start and the winner is first to finish. 


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 11:37am
There was another element I haven't mentioned, money, winning in the Open scene meant big unit sales and there were times it was very ugly, but it didn't start off that way, like the man said about the manner in which you win, back then it was still important to have an element of respect from your fellow competitors, that wasn't quite so apparent in the open scene.
So, I take your point about that as well.
The greatest moment of my life was beating a guy I had huge respect for and had chased hard for two years in a tough One Design fleet with no harnesses permitted and him coming up to me on the beach shaking my hand and telling me well done, he then never sailed nationally again.
So there is truth in what everyone says about class racing, but only for the absolute elite and when you are right at the top of the game, which frankly most of us are not, if we were we probably wouldn't be banging on forums anyway.
The thing I've found most constraining in sailing a fixed rig is the lack of methodology to overcome the simple physics of weight and body dimension over the boat and sail dimensions, there are swerves you can apply with an unstayed rig that are not so apparent with a fixed rig so my view of class racing has changed accordingly.

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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 12:00pm
Originally posted by iGRF

The greatest moment of my life was beating a guy I had huge respect for and had chased hard for two years in a tough One Design fleet with no harnesses permitted and him coming up to me on the beach shaking my hand and telling me well done

And that is the fundamental point of why many of us bang on about One Design fleet racing, in a OD fleet it is possible to set goals against the "pecking order" and there is satisfaction to be had in acheiving them.

Ref. Moths; I think that many of us would love to be 30 years younger and have a go at a Moth; the chance to test yourself against so many Olympic medalists and AC skippers would be a true test; and the possibility to do so is something that is unique to our sport.





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Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 12:30pm
Originally posted by mozzy

Originally posted by Oli

people can race but dont want or cannot get into a solo 
Unfortunately it's sport and it's physical. Getting to the right size and strength / flexibility is part of it. Sailing is probably one of the most diverse sport in terms of body shapes and with two handed boats you have a lot of scope to get the ideal weight.  

Yep, people do have to be the right size range for classes and that could be aprt of the challenge, but we have choice out there.  thank goodness the sports wear industry knows to make multiple sizes of clothes for us to wear despite us having to fit into a one size fits all spot Wink

Originally posted by Oli

why not have it all? a od fleet with active fleet rep who can maintain the class, a handicap fleet who dont conform to the former, and a cruise round the cans fleet who are perhaps new / learning / intimidated by the racing aspect but want to give it a go.
Fine, but when you have more people on duty, or waiting around whilst the other fleets finish / start, then you have a problem. 

agreed but that's why you'd filter up into the next fleet, keeps the fleet size up and the duty people in the minority.

Originally posted by Oli

how about fast / med / slow py split into asy / sym and further to trap / hike, if you have half a dozen or more of each then produce a separate start, if  not move them up a level until there is.
We had / have this at HISC. I was part of the committee that moved away from just PY banding but more toward the type of course the boats wanted to sail. 

The problem at HISC is that on regular weekend races we don't have enough boats to justify the splits. Ouside of teh fleets we probably only getting 10 menagerie boats. You end up with a really long start sequence with fleets of 1-2s. Its then a nightmare to keep a track of. Broaden the fleets up and you have people waiting ages between races. 

To be clear, anyone in any boat would be welcome at my hypothetical club. It's important we give an opportunity for new boats and new people to enter the sport. I think providing one start for 'all comers' is all the opportunity needed and a decent boat with enthusiasm will grow it from there. They can make it what they wish be recording results, agreeing box rules informally off the water. Once they have decent groundswell of support, the club can formalise it and new fleet is born; no need for a committee to second guess and grade. 



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Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 12:30pm
Why is this unique to an OD fleet? In the handicap fleet I sail in there are some on very similar PYs so you can gauge how you are doing and I know that our races are typical 45 mins to 60 mins so I know how many seconds I need to ahead or behind certain key people in our handicap fleet. I always know where I have finished when I cross the line. Perhaps people that sail handicap fleets are just better at mental maths than you OD simpletons?


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 12:49pm
Because there is always the ambiguity that the conditions (course, wind strength, tide, sea state) favoured a particular design. That's fine when designing the best boat is part of the competition (see development classes). But elsewhere it just detracts from fair sailing. 

Then there is the case where sailor X pins out sailor Y, not because he's better at pointing, but because his class is better at pointing. 

Then when fast boats cover slower boats. When their skill hasn't got them in clear air, it's just because they sail one of the faster boats in the banding. 

Then you have the issue of PY just being not very good system. 

Maybe in closely rated boats you have a good idea if you 'won' or not on the water. But even if you know someone has won, you won't know why they won; which would leave me frustrated. However, at many club the split in PY is huge with differences 5 minutes or more over an hour. You are barely on the same leg and have no idea the finishing time of the other boat until the result go up. 

All that takes focus away from who was sailing well and why. After fleet racing I can pinpoint the exact shift that allowed another a head, or gain in boat speed with set up. It's satisfying to see the difference so tangibly in front of me, discuss them in them bar and feel your understanding of the game is improving.  


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 1:06pm
Originally posted by mozzy

Because there is always the ambiguity that the conditions (course, wind strength, tide, sea state) favoured a particular design. 

But that is one of the attractions of handicap racing. I raced Div1 and then Raceboards when the sport was at it's hight. Both were development classes and very much the same as Merlins or N12s. We had decent sized fleets at the club and regional opens. Later on as the sport declined numbers fell and it got to the point where you could almost predict the result before the start gun. The same very often applies to a OD fleet with the same couple of sailors winning every week and the same tail end Charlies too. That doesn't happen to the same extent with handicap as different conditions suit different boats and even the mid fleet guys have the odd chance at the choccies if the weather gods smile on them.


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Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 1:07pm
Originally posted by H2

Why is this unique to an OD fleet? In the handicap fleet I sail in there are some on very similar PYs so you can gauge how you are doing and I know that our races are typical 45 mins to 60 mins so I know how many seconds I need to ahead or behind certain key people in our handicap fleet. I always know where I have finished when I cross the line. Perhaps people that sail handicap fleets are just better at mental maths than you OD simpletons?


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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 1:16pm
Canít be that great - given the need for a spreadsheet to work out the best sailor in a beer can race...


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 1:29pm
Well, if slightly random results are a positive, then well, we just have different opinions. I want to be able to recognise and appreciate skill and apsire to that myself.

Out of all the sports I've done sailing has so many external uncontrollable factors. Even in fleet racing I have seen people perform above expectations and have glory days (i have done so myself). 

Now, if designing your craft or choosing your equipment is part of the sport, the game, then fine. I like that idea. Like F1, or open boards, or development classes. There is a skill in that. 

But everyone having fixed equipment and it just being luck which the weather favoured on any given day, then applying a formula to it to spit out a winner. It's just too abstract for me to enjoy as sport. 


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 1:47pm
But Mozzy - in all the handicap fleets I have sailed in over 25 years you always find that over a ten weekend series that its the same people who are in the top three, so it simply is not true that the winner depends on the conditions and how it suits the boat. People win series by making sure that they win on the day when conditions optimise their boat and when its a tough day they minimise their losses. Its sport. In our club at the moment the three to beat sail a D-Zero, Albacore and Europe. I am knocking on the door of these three and can measure my progress from mid fleet to top three over the last year and it is massively addictive, cant remember the last time I wanted to go sailing so badly and yes I came up through the RYA squads sailing 420s and Lasers and being an OD bitch till I realised it is just so dull and boring.


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 2:10pm
Originally posted by H2

But Mozzy - in all the handicap fleets I have sailed in over 25 years you always find that over a ten weekend series that its the same people who are in the top three, so it simply is not true that the winner depends on the conditions and how it suits the boat. People win series by making sure that they win on the day when conditions optimise their boat and when its a tough day they minimise their losses. Its sport. In our club at the moment the three to beat sail a D-Zero, Albacore and Europe. I am knocking on the door of these three and can measure my progress from mid fleet to top three over the last year and it is massively addictive, cant remember the last time I wanted to go sailing so badly and yes I came up through the RYA squads sailing 420s and Lasers and being an OD bitch till I realised it is just so dull and boring.

So given the choice, would you prefer to sail your Hadron H2 in a handicap fleet of 15 assorted classes of boat, or would you prefer to sail her in a fleet of 15 similar Hadron H2s?


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Somewhere between lies and truth lies the truth


Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 2:24pm
Originally posted by davidyacht


Originally posted by H2

But Mozzy - in all the handicap fleets I have sailed in over 25 years you always find that over a ten weekend series that its the same people who are in the top three, so it simply is not true that the winner depends on the conditions and how it suits the boat. People win series by making sure that they win on the day when conditions optimise their boat and when its a tough day they minimise their losses. Its sport. In our club at the moment the three to beat sail a D-Zero, Albacore and Europe. I am knocking on the door of these three and can measure my progress from mid fleet to top three over the last year and it is massively addictive, cant remember the last time I wanted to go sailing so badly and yes I came up through the RYA squads sailing 420s and Lasers and being an OD bitch till I realised it is just so dull and boring.

So given the choice, would you prefer to sail your Hadron H2 in a handicap fleet of 15 assorted classes of boat, or would you prefer to sail her in a fleet of 15 similar Hadron H2s?


I'm a bit like H2 in this respect in that i sail a Finn in a py fleet. The nearest fleet is approx 70 miles away so that's not possible for me on a regular basis. However I've fleet raced in phantoms and py raced in a 300 too. I like the competition of fleet until you've done it for a while. Normally there's a pecking order and it's very difficult to move on. I like the variety of the py race. You get to see different boats and see how you go against them. The challenge for me is to see if I can do better than normal when the wind is not in my favour. That's more of a challenge than in a fleet at my club. I also like big py events but then I like different boats.

I think py will continue due to size of most clubs in this country. A lot are small and depend on a mixed class fleet, they certainly don't have the numbers to sail in one class.

I'd certainly rather sail in a mixed fleet than not sail at all, which is what would happen if I was forced into a class I didn't want to sail

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Everything I say is my opinion, honest


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 2:35pm
So, not only do you have to wait until you're off the water to find out the result, but you have to do ten weekends before the results even out fairly? You're not winning me over. 

How relevant are club series when so few people complete them? A flick through the results from HISC and there aren't many 4th places not counting letters on their scorecard. 

Check out our club results and it's no different to other clubs I've been a member of:  http://www.hisc.co.uk/sailing-racing/club-results/2017-club-results/" rel="nofollow - http://www.hisc.co.uk/sailing-racing/club-results/2017-club-results/  

By far the most successful racing is the sprint series. One day, 10-20 minutes races. Last start no later than 2 hours after the first (so you can plan the rest of your day). 

After that pennant weekends usually get a decent amount qualifying but even over two days you see a significant drop off.  

This is what a days club sailing results should look like: http://www.hisc.co.uk/media/27608/rs200sandy_shell_2012.htm" rel="nofollow - 2012 , http://www.hisc.co.uk/media/59422/rs200_sandy_shell.htm" rel="nofollow - 2013 , http://www.hisc.co.uk/media/66047/rs200-sandy-shell.htm" rel="nofollow - 2014 , http://www.hisc.co.uk/media/66761/rs200-sandy-shell.htm" rel="nofollow - 2015 , http://www.hisc.co.uk/media/67603/rs200_sprint_15102016.htm" rel="nofollow - 2016 , http://www.hisc.co.uk/media/68571/rs200-sprint-racing-071017.htm" rel="nofollow - 2017 .


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 2:40pm
Originally posted by mozzy

  

This is what a days club sailing results should look like: http://www.hisc.co.uk/media/27608/rs200sandy_shell_2012.htm" rel="nofollow - 2012 , http://www.hisc.co.uk/media/59422/rs200_sandy_shell.htm" rel="nofollow - 2013 , http://www.hisc.co.uk/media/65968/rs200-sprint-august.htm" rel="nofollow - 2014 , http://www.hisc.co.uk/media/66761/rs200-sandy-shell.htm" rel="nofollow - 2015 , http://www.hisc.co.uk/media/67603/rs200_sprint_15102016.htm" rel="nofollow - 2016 , http://www.hisc.co.uk/media/68571/rs200-sprint-racing-071017.htm" rel="nofollow - 2017 .

I think that the main thing to learn from HISC Sailing Results is that the RS200 class is mainly populated by the children of 1980's I14 Sailors ...


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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 2:48pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

Canít be that great - given the need for a spreadsheet to work out the best sailor in a beer can race...
Spreadsheet?

That's so twentieth century darling, if your club doesn't have an automated light starting system which spits out the results as soon as the last boat has finished then mails it to the RYA, you're just in the dark ages..

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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 2:50pm
Did that Tom bloke like his RS200 crew so much he married her ?

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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 2:51pm
Originally posted by davidyacht


Originally posted by mozzy

††
This is what a days club sailing results should look like: http://www.hisc.co.uk/media/27608/rs200sandy_shell_2012.htm" rel="nofollow - 2012 , http://www.hisc.co.uk/media/59422/rs200_sandy_shell.htm" rel="nofollow - 2013 , http://www.hisc.co.uk/media/65968/rs200-sprint-august.htm" rel="nofollow - 2014 , http://www.hisc.co.uk/media/66761/rs200-sandy-shell.htm" rel="nofollow - 2015 , http://www.hisc.co.uk/media/67603/rs200_sprint_15102016.htm" rel="nofollow - 2016 , http://www.hisc.co.uk/media/68571/rs200-sprint-racing-071017.htm" rel="nofollow - 2017 .



I think that the main thing to learn from HISC Sailing Results is that the RS200 class is mainly populated by the children


FTFY

Edit and another thing to learn, maybe it ought to be called RS Hayling ?

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Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 2:55pm
Originally posted by iGRF

That Tom bloke obviously like his RS200 crew so much he married her..
A good crew is hard to find. Once you get one, can't let them go! 


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 4:21pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

Originally posted by H2

But Mozzy - in all the handicap fleets I have sailed in over 25 years you always find that over a ten weekend series that its the same people who are in the top three, so it simply is not true that the winner depends on the conditions and how it suits the boat. People win series by making sure that they win on the day when conditions optimise their boat and when its a tough day they minimise their losses. Its sport. In our club at the moment the three to beat sail a D-Zero, Albacore and Europe. I am knocking on the door of these three and can measure my progress from mid fleet to top three over the last year and it is massively addictive, cant remember the last time I wanted to go sailing so badly and yes I came up through the RYA squads sailing 420s and Lasers and being an OD bitch till I realised it is just so dull and boring.

So given the choice, would you prefer to sail your Hadron H2 in a handicap fleet of 15 assorted classes of boat, or would you prefer to sail her in a fleet of 15 similar Hadron H2s?

My honest ideal world is to sail in a PY fleet at my local club most weekends with a handful of PY travellers (like the Great Lakes Winter events) and the H2 Nationals / Inlands. A perfect mix for me that would keep me excited about sailing each weekend.


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 4:24pm
Originally posted by mozzy

So, not only do you have to wait until you're off the water to find out the result, but you have to do ten weekends before the results even out fairly? You're not winning me over. 

How relevant are club series when so few people complete them? A flick through the results from HISC and there aren't many 4th places not counting letters on their scorecard. 

Check out our club results and it's no different to other clubs I've been a member of:  http://www.hisc.co.uk/sailing-racing/club-results/2017-club-results/" rel="nofollow - http://www.hisc.co.uk/sailing-racing/club-results/2017-club-results/  

By far the most successful racing is the sprint series. One day, 10-20 minutes races. Last start no later than 2 hours after the first (so you can plan the rest of your day). 

After that pennant weekends usually get a decent amount qualifying but even over two days you see a significant drop off.  

This is what a days club sailing results should look like: http://www.hisc.co.uk/media/27608/rs200sandy_shell_2012.htm" rel="nofollow - 2012 , http://www.hisc.co.uk/media/59422/rs200_sandy_shell.htm" rel="nofollow - 2013 , http://www.hisc.co.uk/media/66047/rs200-sandy-shell.htm" rel="nofollow - 2014 , http://www.hisc.co.uk/media/66761/rs200-sandy-shell.htm" rel="nofollow - 2015 , http://www.hisc.co.uk/media/67603/rs200_sprint_15102016.htm" rel="nofollow - 2016 , http://www.hisc.co.uk/media/68571/rs200-sprint-racing-071017.htm" rel="nofollow - 2017 .

I have no idea what drives people at HISC - having been a member of Itchenor for a while I hope it is not the same kind of place. At our little pond at South Cerney we had 14 boats out for the handicap start last Sunday with Solo, Flying 15, Europe, Vareo, H2, K1 and Albacore - for some reason the Lasers and D-Zeros were not out but they normally are. We ran two races starting at 11am and finished by 1pm back to back all on the same start. It was great fun. In our last series which ended a week ago we had 34 boats take part over the series.


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 5:03pm
Originally posted by mozzy

So, not only do you have to wait until you're off the water to find out the result, but you have to do ten weekends before the results even out fairly? You're not winning me over. 



How is this any different to your OD racing? Some weekends its heavy winds and the heavy crews or fit ones win and other weekends its a drifter and you get some weird results! I think you are just a little closed minded - you know people can be different to you and still be right!


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 5:22pm
Originally posted by H2

Originally posted by mozzy

So, not only do you have to wait until you're off the water to find out the result, but you have to do ten weekends before the results even out fairly? You're not winning me over. 



How is this any different to your OD racing? Some weekends its heavy winds and the heavy crews or fit ones win and other weekends its a drifter and you get some weird results! I think you are just a little closed minded - you know people can be different to you and still be right!
Are you suggesting that fitness is an aspect of the sport that should not yield better results?

To be fair, I have raced a Hadron H2 in a (windy) handicap race, and it was a thoroughly  enjoyable experience, but I am not prepared to consign myself to a life of handicap racing quite yet, because the quality of local class racing is too good to ignore ... but if this should decline a Hadron in a Handicap fleet would become more appealing.


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Somewhere between lies and truth lies the truth


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 6:29pm
For me it's a trade off, I'm happy with my club, it's reasonably close to home and has a decent lake. They have fleets of Lasers and Solos neither of which particularly attract me.  The only other class with a decent fleet in the region is the Supernova but that club is a good bit more difficult for me to get to (and I haven't yet decided if I like the 'nova yet). So I'll stay in the handicap fleet and maybe next year I'll try do a couple of class opens.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 7:26pm
I am all for class racing, I do some myself, I also do handicap, the issue for me is when some people who only do class racing look down on handicap racing, suggesting it is very much a second class section of our sport, all very divisive and derisive.


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 7:38pm
So, you're offended that people don't like handicap racing? 


Posted By: Tynesider
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 7:42pm
Probably most of us sail our dinghies for fun and racing is part of that fun and if someone in our club introduces which boats could only race I and many others would just simply leave as it's fun for all of us not a selected few.

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      Archivist for the
Colvic Watson Owners Group    


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 7:58pm
Originally posted by mozzy

So, you're offended that people don't like handicap racing?†



Yes, they are dicks.

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http://www.edgeactionsports.co.uk" rel="nofollow - Beanies, Bike Helmets & Snow accessories to clear


Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 8:00pm
Someone should tell Queen Mary that they needn't publish the results of the Bloody Mary.
To suggest handicap racing can't offer fun or good close racing is like suggesting two kids on bikes shouldn't bother racing each other unless they're on identical bikes. Why can't Solos, Streakers, Bytes and Europes have a decent handicap race? Why would it be better if they were all in Radials?


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 8:05pm
Originally posted by mozzy

So, you're offended that people don't like handicap racing? 

Mozzy - you read the Daily Mail don't you. Or are you always such a dick? No one cares that you like OD racing....good for you....but please stop telling people that like handicap racing that they are wrong. 


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 8:15pm
Kids on bikes don't work the results out using average performances from a database of similar model bikes used by kids in other kids bike races... 

I don't care about the bloody mary results. I couldn't name one previous winner. 

If people want to get together in the winter and blow the cobwebs way and see old mates, then more power to them. I think it's a great thing. I still don't pay any attention to the results. 


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 8:20pm
Originally posted by H2

Originally posted by mozzy

So, you're offended that people don't like handicap racing? 

Mozzy - you read the Daily Mail don't you. Or are you always such a dick? No one cares that you like OD racing....good for you....but please stop telling people that like handicap racing that they are wrong. 

Don't get your knickers in a twist. No need for name calling.  

I'm not offended that people don't see the value of fleet racing and I've not once said that people are 'wrong' to enjoy handicap racing. 

This is a sailing forum, I don't see why I can't express my opinion on why I think fleet racing is a better format and preferable for clubs to pursue. 

p.s. i've not expressed any opinions on OD racing in this thread, just class fleet racing. 


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 8:21pm
Mozzy,
your 'I still don't pay attention to the results' sentence, brilliant, made me laugh out loud.
I am only offended by 'Joe Blinkered' and his elitism.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 8:24pm
Do any of us pay attention to other peoples results?

I don't even pay much attention to our results, other than what happened on the day.

Are they that important to our actual enjoyment of the chase?

OK so they used to be once upon a time but now?

I guess it depends how old you are.

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http://www.edgeactionsports.co.uk" rel="nofollow - Beanies, Bike Helmets & Snow accessories to clear


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 8:41pm

Most clubs that issued a strict 'adopted fleet only' would in effect today be committing suicide - fast or slow.  If OD fleets naturally emerge well that is great but you will not keep them together long term with rules or rulings anyway.    Edicts might have worked in the long distant past but little to no chance whatsoever today.

If a few crusties out there don't like it they should be encouraged to start their own strict OD or fleet racing clubs  from scratch or perhaps towards becoming treasurer in their existing clubs.   Nothing like a bit of commercial exposure to provide that essential whiff of the coffee

There is plenty of OD action for most classes in any event  - Class Nationals, Inland Championships and major OD circuit opens.  If as Ďpuristsí they cannot personally abide the growth of handicap sailing at local clubs .. and more recently in major Open multi-class events such as the SJ series nobody is forcing them to participate. 

They will not agree possibly but many of us think it would be their loss if they ignore what has already happened..  Put simply the model of the 60's and 70's clubs has long gone and what might have worked half a century ago will not necessarily work today.  

You can support both handicap racing in large multi-class events or clubs AND one design single class racing.  They are simply NOT mutually exclusive forms of the sport.   





Posted By: Neal_g
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 8:44pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Do any of us pay attention to other peoples results?

I don't even pay much attention to our results, other than what happened on the day.

Are they that important to our actual enjoyment of the chase?

OK so they used to be once upon a time but now?

I guess it depends how old you are.


You only don't pay attention as now your being beaten by the 6yr old son the mother and nanna from the same family lol

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(Redoubt Sc)
Miracle 4040
GP14 13407

Crewsaver phase 2 range now available to buy online on at http://www.gibsonsails.com


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 8:50pm
Originally posted by Neal_g

Originally posted by iGRF

Do any of us pay attention to other peoples results?

I don't even pay much attention to our results, other than what happened on the day.

Are they that important to our actual enjoyment of the chase?

OK so they used to be once upon a time but now?

I guess it depends how old you are.


You only don't pay attention as now your being beaten by the 6yr old son the mother and nanna from the same family lol


The bandit dynasty fortunately never shows on a wednesday.

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http://www.edgeactionsports.co.uk" rel="nofollow - Beanies, Bike Helmets & Snow accessories to clear


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 9:15pm
Originally posted by 423zero

Mozzy,
your 'I still don't pay attention to the results' sentence, brilliant, made me laugh out loud.
I am only offended by 'Joe Blinkered' and his elitism.
Look, if you're offended by anything I've said, then I'm sorry. But really, I've only talked about why I prefer class racing and think there are drawbacks to handicap racing. 

Next you'll be telling me you're offended I don't like Little Mix and that I think many other bands are better is elitist! 

It's a forum, lighten up. LOL


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 9:36pm
Mozzy,
I was being general not specific, I wasn't aware that I mentioned anyone in particular.
I take a lot of posts with a pinch of salt, and would certainly not be offended by any one specific post or poster.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 11 Oct 17 at 7:29am
Heard on the radio that Little Mix start their UK tour soon. And I missed getting tickets. Mind, I'd rather get tickets to a festival where lots of bands are playing. Is that wrong?

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 11 Oct 17 at 7:51am
Originally posted by iGRF

Do any of us pay attention to other peoples results?

I don't even pay much attention to our results, other than what happened on the day.

Are they that important to our actual enjoyment of the chase?

OK so they used to be once upon a time but now?

I guess it depends how old you are.

Whoa!

This from the foremost critic of the PY system, accuser of banditry in others (including your very next post) etc, etc, etc.

Now you confess that you have no interest in the results anyway. You are just in it for the chase.

Iím not sure Iíve ever encountered so much noise from someone, over such a long period, on a topic where the outcome is something they pay no attention to (you now tell us).

Which is it then? The quote posted here is nonsense? Or youíve been spouting vitriol about the PY system solely for the trolling, you actually donít care about it at all? It has to be one or the other.

I suggest to everyone that henceforth, whenever Graeme spouts on the PY system, we respond simply with his statement quoted above, ignoring anything else he says on the subject.

Oh, and donít claim you donít pay attention because its from the PY system. Thatís a million miles from what you just said.


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http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great new book for Club Sailors here



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