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Is there a future for the Solution?

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12851
Printed Date: 17 Oct 17 at 3:12am
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Topic: Is there a future for the Solution?
Posted By: Papa Smurf
Subject: Is there a future for the Solution?
Date Posted: 11 Sep 17 at 10:00pm
Is there a future for the Solution? 

Lovely boat to sail, but nobody is sailing them. 





Replies:
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 11 Sep 17 at 10:13pm
Far too many good boats like that unfortunately, some more successful that others..... Wink

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 12 Sep 17 at 4:00pm
The Solution has a loyal following and (I think) Ovi build it still in limited numbers.

I don't think it will ever reach the heights of the Phantom though as there are far too many competitors in the market sector it is in (Supernova, Blaze to name a couple).


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR188
Ex Rooster 8.1 '11'
Ex Laser 167534
Ex Blaze 655


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 12 Sep 17 at 4:48pm
There would be a future if they'd let someone who knew what they're doing, market it properly.

Best little boat I've sailed and that includes the D0, Aero, Solo, Streaker, Supernova, Blaze, RS100,EPS,Laser, and other unremarkable boats, only the Phantom beats it in my view and that's mainly because of the waterline length and carbon rig.

They had 16 nobodies sailing it at this years nationals and two from our lake didn't go which was up on the previous year, but nowhere near the 100+ Aeros, but then RS built a 100 Aero's, if you don't build them you won't sell them.

The builders won't build them because nobody orders them, nobody orders them because nobody has seen them or tried them, nobody has tried them because nobody is organising demo's, visiting clubs, focussing attention.

Not rocket science why it's not going anywhere.

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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 12 Sep 17 at 6:00pm
Originally posted by iGRF

There would be a future if they'd let someone who knew what they're doing, market it properly.

Best little boat I've sailed and that includes the D0, Aero, Solo, Streaker, Supernova, Blaze, RS100,EPS,Laser, and other unremarkable boats, only the Phantom beats it in my view and that's mainly because of the waterline length and carbon rig.

They had 16 nobodies sailing it at this years nationals and two from our lake didn't go which was up on the previous year, but nowhere near the 100+ Aeros, but then RS built a 100 Aero's, if you don't build them you won't sell them.

The builders won't build them because nobody orders them, nobody orders them because nobody has seen them or tried them, nobody has tried them because nobody is organising demo's, visiting clubs, focussing attention.

Not rocket science why it's not going anywhere.

I thought the Soluntion CA had a demo boat? You are a CA member for the Solution of Joy aren't you?......


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR188
Ex Rooster 8.1 '11'
Ex Laser 167534
Ex Blaze 655


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 13 Sep 17 at 9:54am
I think I am, I was on the stand at the dinghy show and seem to recall parting with cash there, was actually going to the nationals, but a family wedding interceded, but you know my opinion of classes, they get in the way, hold up progress and generally act as a sales prevention device as well meaning as they may seem, they're all happy with the boat and act against changes that might broaden it's appeal. Like Carbon rigs and not marketing to a narrow group of lightweights when it is a very good weight carrier and perfectly capable of being competitive even carrying 96kilos of lard.

Then what do I care if anyone else buys them? Makes no difference to my enjoyment.

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Posted By: Papa Smurf
Date Posted: 13 Sep 17 at 10:48am
I like the boat but do I want to buy into a class with few boats to race against today that might not be here tomorrow?

I enjoyed sailing the boat but unless I chase the traveling fleet around I won't be sailing against another one.

This leaves me with handicap racing only at my club, where I do most of my sailing.


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 13 Sep 17 at 12:07pm
put a carbon rig on it and watch the competitive weight drop through the floor.... thus reducing the broader appeal you talk of Graeme.  

TBH - unless you are under 75kg, then you might as well buy a Phantom if this is the style of boat you like.  The waterline length makes it a far nicer proposition for most racing environments.  


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 13 Sep 17 at 12:34pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

put a carbon rig on it and watch the competitive weight drop through the floor.... thus reducing the broader appeal you talk of Graeme.  

TBH - unless you are under 75kg, then you might as well buy a Phantom if this is the style of boat you like.  The waterline length makes it a far nicer proposition for most racing environments.  

I agree that body weight is a key driver to any decision on which single hander. Personally at 95 kg it was clear that the likes of Solo, Laser, Vario, Aero would not accommodate my size and allow me to be competitive. I had narrowed it down to the Phantom until I came across the Hadron H2 - its new but more than 20 boats sold this year with seemingly a couple of new orders each month. Happy to share more views on the H2 if you wish.


Posted By: Papa Smurf
Date Posted: 13 Sep 17 at 12:52pm
I've always liked the Phantom but at 80kg think I'm too light for the boat.

The Phantoms on our water are all sailed by those at 90kg+.

The Solution should be the obvious choice but there seems to be a lack of interest in the boat which surprises me.

Maybe the Aero and D Zero have replaced it as an option?


Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 13 Sep 17 at 1:15pm
When the solution launched it failed to make a dent in laser sales for many reasons. That gap in the market is now filled by the D zero and aero. These classes have just hoovered up new laser sales and affected sales in other classes like the streaker and the lightning.

Think turnturle must have been the only non squad sailor to buy a new laser in the last few year. LOLSmile


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 13 Sep 17 at 1:50pm
Originally posted by zeon

Think turnturle must have been the only non squad sailor to buy a new laser in the last few year.†

Bet you're wrong. Think about the very competitive masters fleets.


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 13 Sep 17 at 1:54pm
Originally posted by zeon

Think turnturle must have been the only non squad sailor to buy a new laser in the last few year. LOLSmile

never bought a new Laser.... the process would stick in craw too much! LOL


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 13 Sep 17 at 1:55pm
When the Solution launched it no doubt suffered at the hands of the establishment within the PYAG and got slaughtered,1050 ish I believe, it was also 2006-7 so launched straight into the banking crisis and I understand the company that developed/marketed it went up the pictures as lots and lots of small businesses in the leisure industry did as the banks withdrew funding in order to try and rebuild their balance sheets and were facing new tough guidlines as to lending ratios against their own resources.

It also suffers with being a Northern centric class, the builders are up 'there', the designers also, way beyond the ice wall, so it was only popular amongts the wildlings. The first time I saw it and loved the look of it, there was nobody on hand to even talk about it and frankly it was next door to the Phantom stand and I didn't want to risk either being splashed by or even being part of their pie filling.



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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 13 Sep 17 at 2:10pm
Originally posted by turnturtle


put a carbon rig on it and watch the competitive weight drop through the floor.... thus reducing the broader appeal you talk of Graeme. †
TBH - unless you are under 75kg, then you might as well buy a Phantom if this is the style of boat you like. †The waterline length makes it a far nicer proposition for most racing environments. †



I would agree and disagree, the Phantom tacks a lot slower than the Solution, so in confined waters like our lake where you can't go anywhere for more than two minutes without tacking or gybing and the racing is all about water calls, shifts and breaking covers, also shallows don't give you hassle, there simple is not a modern boat like it for confined water. It can be used on the sea and is a much better 'sea' boat than a lot I could mention, but what makes it great on puddles makes it very hard work on big open water courses with the 'wrong' wavelength for its 390 mtrs. You are racing Lasers most of the time, close quarter inland you sail well and they f**k up and you win, on the sea they can still f**k up and beat you because of that extra waterline length offwind, very tedious, you're pumping like a b**tard and they just sit there slowly eating you up.
There's a young guy down the lake 96kg and early twenties wins a lot in it, beats me in light weather which proves I'm still not as good as I think I am, which is great, but on the sea he probably wouldn't be as lucky, not that we've raced on salt water lately, wish I'd gone to the Nationals, the first day looked like my sort of weather.

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Posted By: Papa Smurf
Date Posted: 13 Sep 17 at 4:50pm
I'm looking to change class next year. The Solution is high on my list of possibilities, purely because it's a great boat to sail.

The downside is there aren't many about to sail against. All those that sail the more traditional, popular class are warning me off the boat.

If the Solution as a class has a future, then I would probably ignore them and go for the Solution because I enjoy sailing it. If the class is dying then that would be a mistake.



Posted By: Steve411
Date Posted: 13 Sep 17 at 5:15pm
Originally posted by Papa Smurf

I've always liked the Phantom but at 80kg think I'm too light for the boat.

The Phantoms on our water are all sailed by those at 90kg+.

The Solution should be the obvious choice but there seems to be a lack of interest in the boat which surprises me.

Maybe the Aero and D Zero have replaced it as an option?


80kg is fine if you sit out.

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Steve B
RS300 411

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Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 13 Sep 17 at 5:28pm
If you don't own, sail and travel in this market space then buy any of the fine boats listed in this thread already; RS100, Supernova, Blaze, D-Zero, Phantom et al.  If do want to travel to well attended events and have a big class assoc etc then you will need to choose from Aero, Laser or Solo.  By well attended I mean 50+, I know the 100, Phantom and Blaze all get to around 50 but rarely north of 50 or pushing 100+.


Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 13 Sep 17 at 7:12pm
Originally posted by getafix

If you don't own, sail and travel in this market space then buy any of the fine boats listed in this thread already; RS100, Supernova, Blaze, D-Zero, Phantom et al.† If do want to travel to well attended events and have a big class assoc etc then you will need to choose from Aero, Laser or Solo.† By well attended I mean 50+, I know the 100, Phantom and Blaze all get to around 50 but rarely north of 50 or pushing 100+.


Ummm - Phant had 60 at their Nationals, Supernovas 100+ and Lasers less than 30 ???


Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 13 Sep 17 at 7:55pm
Lasers had much more than the aero then, if you're just counting the big rigs.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 13 Sep 17 at 8:01pm
Originally posted by Papa Smurf

I'm looking to change class next year. The Solution is high on my list of possibilities, purely because it's a great boat to sail.

The downside is there aren't many about to sail against. All those that sail the more traditional, popular class are warning me off the boat.

If the Solution as a class has a future, then I would probably ignore them and go for the Solution because I enjoy sailing it. If the class is dying then that would be a mistake.



I can't promise you big fleets locally, but I can promise a nice sailing experience and I would add this, if ever it looked like the current 'owners' of the Solution decided to call it a day, then I for one would seize on it as an opportunity to build not one but two classes and I'm sure I wouldn't be alone in viewing it as an opportunity for a brand relaunch, so no, it's not going to die any time soon, providing of course the market within which it exists doesn't die first.

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Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 14 Sep 17 at 9:57am
GRF .. sounds like you should at least be on the Solution CA committee - no point yelling 'how it should be' otherwise.   They sure would value a leading marketing practitioner of renowned judgement plus those key diplomacy skills you possess.  Hearts and minds etc ....  Wink

(The first sentence is possibly serious ... as for rest ......)


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 14 Sep 17 at 10:34am
Originally posted by getafix

If you don't own, sail and travel in this market space then buy any of the fine boats listed in this thread already; RS100, Supernova, Blaze, D-Zero, Phantom et al.  If do want to travel to well attended events and have a big class assoc etc then you will need to choose from Aero, Laser or Solo.  By well attended I mean 50+, I know the 100, Phantom and Blaze all get to around 50 but rarely north of 50 or pushing 100+.

There is of course the dreaded re-sale value question....  I know it's not pretty, but taking a punt on a boat that happened to be nice on the 2 hour test sail in benign, sunny conditions* is a far easier decision if you know you're not going to get rogered if you choose to move it on anytime soon.

I think we all accept it takes a while to dial-in a boat and work out its quirks and sweet spots; unfortunately that can sometimes mean coming to the realisation it's not right for you, or actually something else is probably better for your location, body type, sailing style etc...

There's no point naming it, but there is one new class I was very tempted to have a punt on, but it's just too much risk given the relatively low sales volumes it has achieved.  

(* I mean no one would seriously commit to a boat on marketing blurb and internet opinion alone LOL)


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 14 Sep 17 at 2:01pm
Cirrus re Committee, committees and I just don't get on and any atm my new kite brand is busy doubling it's turnover for the third year running so I am just a tad engaged elsewhere.

TT & resale value, just try and find a Solution for sale, never mind one under two grand. They hold their value really well.


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Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 14 Sep 17 at 2:45pm
Cirrus re Committee, committees and I just don't get on and any atm my new kite brand is busy doubling it's turnover for the third year running so I am just a tad engaged elsewhere.

Well we should be grateful that you have still managed to find a few minutes to devote to 'advising' the dinghy world ....  if only you were selling Solutions as well etc etc ....LOL


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 14 Sep 17 at 2:46pm
fair point about second hand values... one of those classes which lingers in its 2.5 - 4k bubble depending on how shagged out its got.

Not great if you were to drop on a new one... what 7 to 7.5k including trailer or so now?    

The lack of new boats starves the after-market, adding to the issues already identified.


Posted By: Papa Smurf
Date Posted: 16 Sep 17 at 6:42pm
I can't see another boat that would suit me better at the moment.

I was tempted by an RS300 at a good price, and I have a weakness for Phantoms, but looking at how and where I sail, the Solution is the best option.


Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 17 Sep 17 at 9:35am
Originally posted by iGRF



Not rocket science why it's not going anywhere.

It probably costs a builder £500 to run a demo day, maybe more. 

The margin in a boat is probably £1000. 

Not rocket science why builders can't do this ...




Posted By: Vronny
Date Posted: 18 Sep 17 at 10:35am
As Old Timer says, it's an expensive business for a builder to promote a class. It's also expensive and time consuming for a class association to do the same. But if the two work together, you stand a chance. However, the class needs to have built itself up so that the association has enthusiastic volunteers to help share the load and sufficient income from subscriptions, etc to make it possible to do some marketing, demos, and going to the Dinghy Show. 
It seems that several classes are relying heavily on their builders to do the marketing. At the Dinghy Show many classes built by Hartley or Ovington etc are displayed on the builders' stands. Presumably their class associations have some input but it gives the impression that the associations (i.e. the people who actually sail the boats and organise events and circuits etc) haven't got much to say. On the other hand, if you go to a class association stand, you can spend ages talking about the racing as well as the boat.
So the point I'm making is that for a class to be sustainable it doesn't just need to offer a nice sailing/racing experience but also needs an active class association. Even if you sail in handicap fleets at your own club, having a good class association means you can access information, go to open meetings, maybe also training sessions, etc. This is particularly important for people buying secondhand boats - and without a steady stream of happy secondhand boat buyers, the class is pretty much doomed.


Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 18 Sep 17 at 12:29pm
Well said Vronny

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OK 2122 & 2148


Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 18 Sep 17 at 1:29pm
Originally posted by Vronny

As Old Timer says, it's an expensive business for a builder to promote a class. It's also expensive and time consuming for a class association to do the same. But if the two work together, you stand a chance. However, the class needs to have built itself up so that the association has enthusiastic volunteers to help share the load and sufficient income from subscriptions, etc to make it possible to do some marketing, demos, and going to the Dinghy Show. 
It seems that several classes are relying heavily on their builders to do the marketing. At the Dinghy Show many classes built by Hartley or Ovington etc are displayed on the builders' stands. Presumably their class associations have some input but it gives the impression that the associations (i.e. the people who actually sail the boats and organise events and circuits etc) haven't got much to say. On the other hand, if you go to a class association stand, you can spend ages talking about the racing as well as the boat.
So the point I'm making is that for a class to be sustainable it doesn't just need to offer a nice sailing/racing experience but also needs an active class association. Even if you sail in handicap fleets at your own club, having a good class association means you can access information, go to open meetings, maybe also training sessions, etc. This is particularly important for people buying secondhand boats - and without a steady stream of happy secondhand boat buyers, the class is pretty much doomed.

+ 1 to that.


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Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 18 Sep 17 at 1:33pm
Caveat to that last statement from Vroony:

Unless the steady stream of happy secondhand boat buyers the class is pretty much doomed, unless you have a steady stream of 'home boat builders' building.


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Posted By: Phil_1193
Date Posted: 18 Sep 17 at 1:41pm
Originally posted by Vronny

At the Dinghy Show many classes built by Hartley or Ovington etc are displayed on the builders' stands. Presumably their class associations have some input but it gives the impression that the associations (i.e. the people who actually sail the boats and organise events and circuits etc) haven't got much to say. On the other hand, if you go to a class association stand, you can spend ages talking about the racing as well as the boat.



Talking from experience the reason the CA sometimes doesn't have its own stand is two fold, it requires around 16-20 people to give up their time to man the stand over the weekend (2 days, 2 hour stints, 2 people per stint), plus a couple to take the boat up, set up the stand, than pack it away on the Sunday night.

Add to that (the main reason), it costs the CA around £1000 to have the stand in the first place, its a huge outlay for very little return.

If the builder is offering to showcase the boat with some input from the sailors who are at the show, helping out when necessary at no cost to the CA its fairly obvious it would be stupid not to take it





Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 18 Sep 17 at 2:14pm
Obviously class associations are vital for a strong class, but it's always struck me as a weird set up where the builder passes on responsibility for promoting the class to the CA. The builder makes a living selling boats, if he wants to sell more he should market it more, not rely on a group of owners to evangelise on a voluntary basis. Some owners will do this to protect their investment, but it is poor form to rely on it.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 18 Sep 17 at 2:50pm
Originally posted by A2Z

Obviously class associations are vital for a strong class, but it's always struck me as a weird set up where the builder passes on responsibility for promoting the class to the CA. The builder makes a living selling boats, if he wants to sell more he should market it more, not rely on a group of owners to evangelise on a voluntary basis. Some owners will do this to protect their investment, but it is poor form to rely on it.


+1

It's another archaic reason nothing goes anywhere unless it's RS and more recently Hartley punching the market. The people who's job it is to market a product are those who profit by it's sale. It's all very well abrogating your responsibility to a bunch of owners, but with that comes all the other none sense, like them thinking they have some God given right to prevent further development of the product to protect their own personal interests.

Now don't go giving me a load of horse sh*t that this class or that class does a good job, they don't, if they were, the entire sport would not be in decline, the toxic combination of classes, & the RYA is like the ultimate sales prevention team, I totally despair at times..

Look at the latest bollox going on with the Contender, rumours of some dumbed down club thing that no one will buy when really they should be building the Contender light, down to weight smaller rig and aimed at Gods chosen people, Lightweights and Ladies oh and the young of course...


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Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 18 Sep 17 at 5:53pm
Originally posted by iGRF

[QUOTE=A2Z]

Look at the latest bollox going on with the Contender, rumours of some dumbed down club thing that no one will buy when really they should be building the Contender light, down to weight smaller rig and aimed at Gods chosen people, Lightweights and Ladies oh and the young of course...

You know about the Farr 3.7 don't you iGRF, I guess they know about it too.


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Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 18 Sep 17 at 5:54pm
Originally posted by iGRF

really they should be building the Contender light, down to weight 

Here's an alternative for you Graeme. Instead of making the boats lighter (changing handling characteristics, stability et al) solve the shoreside handling. What we all need is a motorised, waterproof, solar powered trolley mechanism that can be retro-fitted (and decent wheels). On each of my dinghies, the actual boat's weight is irrelevant on land in the context of the half-a-ton of iron underneath it.




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Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 18 Sep 17 at 6:41pm
He's got a point. My Finn is obviously a little on the lardy size however cos the trolley is aluminium or really isn't that difficult to move about, unless it's hilly or on a beach, but then if your daft enough to sail off a beach get loads of helpers or a lighter boat

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Everything I say is my opinion, honest


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 18 Sep 17 at 9:23pm
How much does a galv steel trolly weigh? I suspect there's only about 15kg difference between a steel trolly and an ally one. Not insignificant but there's 77kg difference between an Aero and a Finn.......

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 18 Sep 17 at 10:05pm
For once this Sunday gone, my tidal tactical genius bore fruit and I finished ahead of the Contender who normally dominates at Hythe which meant I landed first and once I managed to drag my boat up the beach far enough that the water wouldn't reclaim it, difficult enough with the EPS, but I had to help him with his Contender. I was thinking once again how much I really want one, right up until the moment I tried to drag it forward on it's trolley. It is outrageous that something that size can be that heavy in this day and age, stupid and outrageous.
The trolley isn't the issue, once on the trolley we have winches to pull the boats up the beach, just get the damn thing on the trolley clear of the water in the first place is our issue and this was on an offshore wind day so not a great swell running, two of us struggled.
The Solution is not difficult, nor I suspect would a Farr 37 which funnily enough I've been eyeing up again as there was one on the duck for sale, but, it's a big risk buying without trying, certainly not without say a return if your not totally satisfied sort of deal that other products might offer.

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Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 19 Sep 17 at 8:43am
My lovely new Hadron H2 fully rigged weighs in at 75kg, the biggest issue is getting it onto the trolley which is sealed aluminum box frame and floats!!


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 19 Sep 17 at 9:21am
The trolly needs correctors fitted LOL

BTW is that weighed or claimed?


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 19 Sep 17 at 10:05am
I have no weighed it so it is claimed but there are boats in the park that are well known what they weigh so you can compare quite easily - it certainly is in that ball park.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 19 Sep 17 at 10:30am
I'm sure a builder like Keith C will be weighing his boats at the factory door and the numbers quoted will be accurate (unlike some 'larger' manufacturers who shall remain nameless). However I'd venture an extra 5-10 kg on a 90kg boat plus trolly rig is impossible to judge just by pulling one up the slipway (the 60+kg difference between my Blaze and Spice OTOH.......)

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 19 Sep 17 at 12:12pm
Trolleys that float are a nightmare in any kind of shore break, it's nice to have a light trolley for moving around the boatpark but if you're trying to recover water direct to trolley, a 'floater' moving about as much as the boat is can be quite problematic.

75kgs by the way is nothing to be proud of, it's still heavy.


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Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 19 Sep 17 at 12:49pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Trolleys that float are a nightmare in any kind of shore break, it's nice to have a light trolley for moving around the boatpark but if you're trying to recover water direct to trolley, a 'floater' moving about as much as the boat is can be quite problematic.

75kgs by the way is nothing to be proud of, it's still heavy.

75kg is something to be proud of in a boat for someone who is 95kg and does not want to be crawling around on his knees and hence needs to be long, wide and deep!!


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 19 Sep 17 at 12:58pm
I'm sure it's a nice boat, certain of it in fact, but all the time people accept that weights like 75kg are viewed as 'acceptable' it doesn't help those of us that want lighter vehicles to lift and hump around boat parks, up and down slipways and beaches. Sorry, no personal insult intended.

There's a reason the health and safety executive reduced the weight luggage handlers can lift from 32 kilos to 25. It involved back problems.

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Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 19 Sep 17 at 1:04pm
Well coming from an RS400......its feather weight!!!


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 19 Sep 17 at 1:08pm
Considering that it is sailing weight it's not too shabby, it is a beamy, relatively deep 14' boat. I'd guess that a hull weight of 56kg is a good compromise between strength/durability and light weight. The Aero, at 30kg (claimed........) is pretty fragile despite being 20cm shorter, 55cm narrower and with much less freeboard (adding up to probably 30% less hull surface area). Sure it can be done lighter but at a cost.....

To make the trolly sink just remove the bungs in the tubes so they fill with water (or drill big holes in the ends)? Remember to hose them out after dipping them in sea water and you'll be fine. At least you won't have the problem I had when I had my trolly re-galvanised....... They couldn't get it to sink in the molten zinc 'cos the times were full of sand and shells....... They eventually managed to stand it on end and bash it 'till it all fell out and got the job done.




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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 19 Sep 17 at 2:45pm
Originally posted by H2

My lovely new Hadron H2 fully rigged weighs in at 75kg, the biggest issue is getting it onto the trolley which is sealed aluminum box frame and floats!!


That would be less than a Phantom ? and not much more than a Laser ?





Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 19 Sep 17 at 2:54pm
I have no idea about the Phantom but it feels like a laser on land yes but obviously much wider and much deeper (freeboard) just made out of modern materials hence the same weight


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 19 Sep 17 at 3:02pm
It's certainly sounds heavier than my chums Phantom, but then there is a lot more going on with Tunnels and Thwartes and I suspect there's generally more of the H2 than a Phantom, it's a big ole boat. I did want to get a go in one this year, but the opportunity never presented itself.

However, lets remember this is a thread about the Solution and it's future, nothing an H2 is going to help to deliver and they both target similar markets.

But here's a thing, wouldn't it be good if the manufacturer of the H2 and the manufacturer of the Solution and the Phantom and Maybe the D0 all got together, hired one team and a trailor travelling around the clubs letting them try the various boats and taking orders on the spot with sailors doing what sailors do, making their own purchasing decision.

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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 19 Sep 17 at 3:40pm
The Solution has the lightest hull only weight of those mentioned at 6kg lighter than a Phantom, 5kg lighter than a L@ser (though the Laser rig may be lighter) and 1kg lighter than an H2. However it is 6" narrower and a foot shorter than the H2.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: iiiiticki
Date Posted: 19 Sep 17 at 4:44pm
Just back from boat show where there were no class stands only manufacturers. Hartley crowded as usual both with boats and punters. Richard Hartley flogging away with energetic enthusiasm. Discounts and deals. I am sure that he would have been happy for us to intercept any potential Byte (sorry) customers and give them the sailors point of view. John Clarridge again enthusiastic in his laid back way and he still races the Lightning that he builds and so represents the class. Other than those two I only saw RS as manufacturers.

Battle of the classes a bit drab with little wind but we managed a fourth, not bad for promo I suppose....:-):-)



Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 20 Sep 17 at 11:01am
Was half toying with the idea of going along for Battle of the Classes in the H2 - glad I did not as we have not worked out how to make it work well in light winds!!


Posted By: iiiiticki
Date Posted: 20 Sep 17 at 12:23pm
The course definitely favoured symmetric boats with a long downwind leg. The two full rig lasers went very well (obviously). I was watching and taking photographs from the end of the pontoons surrounded by other spectators. I have never heard such ludicrous comments and this at a boat show. It just indicates how little understanding there is of our sport.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 20 Sep 17 at 1:13pm
interested to hear some of those comments if you can recall....... good for a despairing laugh maybe?

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 20 Sep 17 at 2:19pm
I've always fancied doing that, but wouldn't want to be the official class representative, I'm sure they have far better helms than me, but I'm not even sure anyone went in a Solution, so somebody would have been better than no-one.

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Posted By: iiiiticki
Date Posted: 20 Sep 17 at 4:52pm
How about, "how do you race sailing boats, after all they are not formula one"? "No, no, no....he's falling in". (simple tack for the line). "That one's going the wrong way...". (Tacking on to port). "Pretty sails". " They are all over the place". (They haven't started yet). "That one has gone and no one noticed". (It was a pursuit race).


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 20 Sep 17 at 5:25pm
Big smile

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 20 Sep 17 at 6:59pm
Sounds like half the members from my club LOL


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 21 Sep 17 at 8:57am
Originally posted by iGRF


But here's a thing, wouldn't it be good if the manufacturer of the H2 and the manufacturer of the Solution and the Phantom and Maybe the D0 all got together, hired one team and a trailor travelling around the clubs letting them try the various boats and taking orders on the spot with sailors doing what sailors do, making their own purchasing decision.

Probably not ... chances of the right conditions coinciding with free time of the potential punters who might have £7k+ of disposable income seems quite unlikely.
 




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Somewhere between lies and truth lies the truth


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 21 Sep 17 at 9:27am
Originally posted by davidyacht

Originally posted by iGRF


But here's a thing, wouldn't it be good if the manufacturer of the H2 and the manufacturer of the Solution and the Phantom and Maybe the D0 all got together, hired one team and a trailor travelling around the clubs letting them try the various boats and taking orders on the spot with sailors doing what sailors do, making their own purchasing decision.

Probably not ... chances of the right conditions coinciding with free time of the potential punters who might have £7k+ of disposable income seems quite unlikely.
 



Our club invited Keith C to bring the Hadron over for a test sail and about ten people showed up to take it for a spin. Some people also offered to make their solo's and Vareo's available to people for back-to-back tests which helped me make my mind up as I was clearly too big for both. Following this two people bought H2s and a third is selling his kidneys to buy one. My point is that you can invite the boats your missing and ask people to make their boats available for back-to-back tests if you want (assuming you are part of a friendly club)?


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 21 Sep 17 at 10:02am
Originally posted by davidyacht

Originally posted by iGRF


But here's a thing, wouldn't it be good if the manufacturer of the H2 and the manufacturer of the Solution and the Phantom and Maybe the D0 all got together, hired one team and a trailor travelling around the clubs letting them try the various boats and taking orders on the spot with sailors doing what sailors do, making their own purchasing decision.

Probably not ... chances of the right conditions coinciding with free time of the potential punters who might have £7k+ of disposable income seems quite unlikely.
 



We had demos of both the D-Zero and the H2 at Hunts. We had people turn up for both from other local clubs. Of those who tried the boats from Hunts only I bought in initially. Keith was kind enough to let me have a play in the H2 (and he and Simon tried a D-Zero).

Demo days are great at getting the boat visible and the CA can play a big part in helping with them. The D-Zero class has a network of willing boat owners who can offer demos so you can get one at any time somewhere close to you. I have done several myself and I know people have bought in (and joined the club too).

So it can work but it does rely on the goodwill of boat owners to support the manufacturer/builder/distributor....


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR188
Ex Rooster 8.1 '11'
Ex Laser 167534
Ex Blaze 655


Posted By: Simon Lovesey
Date Posted: 21 Sep 17 at 10:32am
Demo boats are a great idea,  particularly when you can test and compare to other similar classes.

Last year's GJW Direct SailJuice Winter Series saw over 1,000 competitors from 278 sailing clubs taking part in 89 different racing classes.  With several classes and builders using the Series for demo sails.

This year we are going to promote this more,  with a dedicated page highlighting what classes are available and at which events.  Already a few have signed up,  please PM me if you want your class involved,  Solutions most welcome.  

http://sailracer.org/ResultsEntry/Article/3494" rel="nofollow - http://sailracer.org/ResultsEntry/Article/3494



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Online Sailing Results, GPS Tracking & Event Management


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 21 Sep 17 at 12:58pm
If I can get a shameless plug in...

Chew Valley Lake SC are hosting a singlehanded open on 21st October (Trafalgar Day, in memory of our greatest ever singlehanded sailor). There will be H2, Phantoms, D0 and many more besides, in what I hope will be something of a FOM atmosphere. If you bring your Solution, Graeme, I promise to swap for a race if you want.

For anyone interested in joining in, PM me for details.


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 21 Sep 17 at 1:35pm
Originally posted by Peaky

If I can get a shameless plug in...

Chew Valley Lake SC are hosting a singlehanded open on 21st October (Trafalgar Day, in memory of our greatest ever singlehanded sailor). There will be H2, Phantoms, D0 and many more besides, in what I hope will be something of a FOM atmosphere. If you bring your Solution, Graeme, I promise to swap for a race if you want.

For anyone interested in joining in, PM me for details.

Planning to be at this with my H2!


Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 21 Sep 17 at 6:24pm
Originally posted by H2


Originally posted by Peaky

If I can get a shameless plug in...

Chew Valley Lake SC are hosting a singlehanded open on 21st October (Trafalgar Day, in memory of our greatest ever singlehanded sailor). There will be H2, Phantoms, D0 and many more besides, in what I hope will be something of a FOM atmosphere. If you bring your Solution, Graeme, I promise to swap for a race if you want.

For anyone interested in joining in, PM me for details.

Planning to be at this with my H2!


Excellent as I really want to have a look at one. I'm almost certainly too fat for one but I like the look.



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Everything I say is my opinion, honest


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 21 Sep 17 at 8:55pm
To be fair to Keith, despite my comments I also demoed the H2 at Salcombe, I really liked it, and if fleet racing and trips to Garda were not available with the Solo, I would probably order an H2.  

My comment was really directed at having done many demos over the years on both sides of the coin, often the demo is to satisfy a curiosity and the reward for effort is often not too high.

I really like how Keith is marketing the H2 and it seems to be maintaining momentum, but I think he is puting in a huge effort.


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Somewhere between lies and truth lies the truth


Posted By: NickM99
Date Posted: 21 Sep 17 at 10:17pm
I really like the look of the H2 but wouldn't buy one for all the reasons that DavidY points out - and compared to e.g. a new Solo, the depreciation would be eye-watering.

I wonder if anybody has thought of forming a syndicate to buy a boat like this as a second boat for fun racing. The trouble is that everybody in the syndicate would probably want to sail it at the3 same time.

Sorry - this should be on the H2 thread!


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 22 Sep 17 at 7:36am
Originally posted by davidyacht

To be fair to Keith, despite my comments I also demoed the H2 at Salcombe, I really liked it, and if fleet racing and trips to Garda were not available with the Solo, I would probably order an H2.  

My comment was really directed at having done many demos over the years on both sides of the coin, often the demo is to satisfy a curiosity and the reward for effort is often not too high.

I really like how Keith is marketing the H2 and it seems to be maintaining momentum, but I think he is puting in a huge effort.

I think that for many people you have hit upon the key issue. You are left with a choice of sailing a boat like a solo that has a strong following at club and global level for which your body shape is a compromise or else accept that you will be sailing in handicap races in a boat that you are comfortable sailing and that was designed for your size and I think this is where the Solution and H2 find themselves. I agree they are a niche product at the moment but for me I would rather have a boat I loved to sail because it fits me and I am not worried about being 95kg and hence too heavy even if that means depreciation when (if) I come to sell. I get one life and in the greater scheme of things I would rather sail a boat that I love rather than a boat that lots of skinny old men love (I am trying to be funny.....)


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 22 Sep 17 at 9:18am
Peaky  et al ....

We'll see if we can get a few Blazes along on 21st October as well .... most will be happy enough to let others 'have a go' if conditons are reasonable.   The boat caters from 'GRF light' to 'the full Phantom' in terms of crew weight ... and has had champions both below 70kg and over 95kg in the past.   Now we have additonal sail options this is opening  up the class even more.   Hopefully CU there ....




Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 22 Sep 17 at 10:19am
Originally posted by H2


I get one life and in the greater scheme of things I would rather sail a boat that I love rather than a boat that lots of skinny old men love (I am trying to be funny.....)


Fact and why I chose the Solution over all of them, it's light, but no so light it will blow away, it's manoeuvrable in confined water, will quite literally tack on a dime so enables use of every shift, it's speed is close to the Laser, faster sometimes slower others so you have to race them hard, has retracting foils, so doesn't matter too much if you run aground, has a healthy beam at it's widest point so you can go back and out to handle big puffs, you can rake the rig upwind and let go the shrouds downwind to sail by the lee, all in all pretty much everything you need except carbon for close quarter inland sailing. As much as I like the Hadron, I think it's way too big for me, but I'd love to put it to the test, reckon if anyone can make it go in light weather it would be moi.

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http://www.edgeactionsports.co.uk" rel="nofollow - Beanies, Bike Helmets & Snow accessories to clear


Posted By: Fatboi
Date Posted: 22 Sep 17 at 10:35am
Originally posted by iGRF

 reckon if anyone can make it go in light weather it would be moi.

That's a hell of a claim!! 


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 22 Sep 17 at 10:46am
No, I'M the person who could make it go in light winds!


Not seen Life of Brian in ages.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 22 Sep 17 at 2:56pm
Originally posted by Cirrus

Peaky† et al ....We'll see if we can get a few Blazes along on 21st October as well .... most will be happy enough to let others 'have a go' if conditons are reasonable. Hopefully CU there ....


That would be great, bring along the Burgfield contingent too! Hope to catch up with soon then.


Posted By: Papa Smurf
Date Posted: 23 Sep 17 at 8:34am
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by H2


I get one life and in the greater scheme of things I would rather sail a boat that I love rather than a boat that lots of skinny old men love (I am trying to be funny.....)


Fact and why I chose the Solution over all of them, it's light, but no so light it will blow away, it's manoeuvrable in confined water, will quite literally tack on a dime so enables use of every shift, it's speed is close to the Laser, faster sometimes slower others so you have to race them hard, has retracting foils, so doesn't matter too much if you run aground, has a healthy beam at it's widest point so you can go back and out to handle big puffs, you can rake the rig upwind and let go the shrouds downwind to sail by the lee, all in all pretty much everything you need except carbon for close quarter inland sailing. As much as I like the Hadron, I think it's way too big for me, but I'd love to put it to the test, reckon if anyone can make it go in light weather it would be moi.



This was why I decided to go for the Solution. I enjoy sailing the boat. It restricts me to handicap sailing which is a shame, but it's too good a boat to miss


Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 23 Sep 17 at 11:34pm
Originally posted by Rupert

No, I'M the person who could make it go in light winds!


Not seen Life of Brian in ages.

but i'm Sparticus


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http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great new book for Club Sailors here


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 24 Sep 17 at 12:50am
Originally posted by fab100

Originally posted by Rupert

No, I'M the person who could make it go in light winds!


Not seen Life of Brian in ages.

but i'm Sparticus
Here we go ...


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Somewhere between lies and truth lies the truth


Posted By: iiiiticki
Date Posted: 24 Sep 17 at 9:22am
Oddly enough a friend has just bought a Solution. First sail today. We will see how it goes.


Posted By: elzorillo
Date Posted: 11 Oct 17 at 12:55pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by H2


I get one life and in the greater scheme of things I would rather sail a boat that I love rather than a boat that lots of skinny old men love (I am trying to be funny.....)


Fact and why I chose the Solution over all of them, it's light, but no so light it will blow away, it's manoeuvrable in confined water, will quite literally tack on a dime so enables use of every shift, it's speed is close to the Laser, faster sometimes slower others so you have to race them hard, has retracting foils, so doesn't matter too much if you run aground, has a healthy beam at it's widest point so you can go back and out to handle big puffs, you can rake the rig upwind and let go the shrouds downwind to sail by the lee, all in all pretty much everything you need except carbon for close quarter inland sailing. As much as I like the Hadron, I think it's way too big for me, but I'd love to put it to the test, reckon if anyone can make it go in light weather it would be moi.

All of the above.. saw a couple of visitors sailing them at my local club last year during some tri club event and instantly fell in love with the boat. Seemed to tick all my boxes, especially the retracting foil (for our dreaded shallows). I immediately decided to buy one and popped onto the class association page, only to discover the dire attendance at opens. 

I still desperately want one.. but I like to travel and I'm used to the very well attended Supernova events and the thought of travelling to sail against the same half a dozen fellas month after month seriously puts me off.. At the back of my mind I have this crazy idea that I may buy one as a second boat.. we shall see.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 11 Oct 17 at 3:59pm
Will be getting back into mine as the winter season approaches and I'm back down the lake, our wednesday afternoon series fell apart again this year what with one thing and another so I've only been out in it a few times this summer and everytime I do I think about buying a second one for the sea.
I'll have my work cut out this season, that Jack has been travelling and doing quite well so will be getting tougher to beat, it's true there are not many of them but then they haven't been around as long as the Supernova and they don't have quite as aggressive a builder pushing them as hard as Hartleys are doing with the Sofa.
But there are signs they're still growing, the nationals saw a couple of more this season as they crept south of the icewall, so it depends which area you are in I guess.

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