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Hiking technique

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Technique
Forum Discription: 'How to' section for dinghy questions and answers
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12845
Printed Date: 13 Dec 17 at 1:26am
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Topic: Hiking technique
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Subject: Hiking technique
Date Posted: 07 Sep 17 at 12:20pm
Paul Elvstrom developed the 'drop hiking' technique in the '60s. I used it throughout the '70s in a Heron and OK. Later on I had a Laser and was forced into the straight leg technique by the rubbish ergonomics of the boat. Now I have the Blaze I can use a modified 'drop hiking' technique and find it much more comfortable than straight legs. What are the pros & cons of the two techniques?

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"



Replies:
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 07 Sep 17 at 12:33pm
Simple, they both should be outlawed, they not only look ridiculous, they cause pain and discomfort that is unlike proper manpain you get doing mansports.

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https://www.edgeactionsports.co.uk/collections/snowboards" rel="nofollow - Ski boot heaters, edge tuners deals galore


Posted By: Eisvogel
Date Posted: 07 Sep 17 at 12:59pm
See here for more information: https://www.roostersailing.com/blog/hiking-styles-the-secrets-behind-efficient-and-healthy-hiking/

Including Steve dropping his trousers...

In short: keep your legs straight, otherwise you will end up with knee pain, and you won't hike as efficiently.


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Enterprise 20361 (Eisvogel), Laser 102727 (Halcyon), Laser 121986 (C U Laser)


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 07 Sep 17 at 1:35pm
Could use a bit of both techniques on long beats, that way you use different muscle groups, and can hang on longer.  Steve's pointy toes technique is good for applying the pressure to those around you ... out of the start and tight reaches.

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Somewhere between lies and truth lies the truth


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 07 Sep 17 at 2:31pm
It's time I patented and released my hiking harness.

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https://www.edgeactionsports.co.uk/collections/snowboards" rel="nofollow - Ski boot heaters, edge tuners deals galore


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 07 Sep 17 at 6:18pm
It's time I patented and released my hiking harness.

Can we assume you refer to your 'special interest' Lederhosen harness ?  Not sure you will get any patent awarded of course .... LOL


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 07 Sep 17 at 6:24pm
LOL

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 07 Sep 17 at 7:08pm
Totally agree with iGRF. Hiking is the dumbest looking sporting  activity ever. We are just conditined into thinking it is ok and some how laudable. (well not quite the dumbest, that is taken by windsurfers rowing their way around a course)
On a more serious side, it is plain dangerous as it causes a major increase in blood pressure as your heart tries to force blood around some of the bigest muscles in your body which are literally in spasm.

In short don't do it and if you must then do a lot of conditioning. Both methods are bad for your knees, it's just how bad they are and how much damage will you accept?

I gave up hiking Lasers three years ago as I found that two weeks on ibuprofen was too much a price to pay and I'm fit and ride the 10 miles a day to work and back 6 days a week over big hills in Devon. I now only use windsurfers and I refuse to row them!


Posted By: dohertpk
Date Posted: 08 Sep 17 at 9:58pm
If you must hike, you need to get your quads and posterior chain sorted or you will suffer. That means lots of squats, lunges, split squats and deadlifts.


Posted By: By The Lee
Date Posted: 08 Sep 17 at 11:13pm
Drop hiking is not only bad for you but is slow as you have to sail with the boat heeled to leeward to stop you bum dragging. if you want to see how to hike properly watch a video of someone like Slingsby in a Laser


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 09 Sep 17 at 8:18am
Originally posted by By The Lee

Drop hiking is not only bad for you but is slow as you have to sail with the boat heeled to leeward to stop you bum dragging. if you want to see how to hike properly watch a video of someone like Slingsby in a Laser

if you drag your bum in a Blaze then you have freakishly long legs... Some boats it works in (i.e those with enough freeboard).


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Paul
---------------------------
D-Zero GBR188
Ex Rooster 8.1 '11'
Ex Laser 167534
Ex Blaze 655


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 09 Sep 17 at 10:04am
What I've discovered so far is that nearly everybody considers Steve C's analysis to be gospel but most people sail L@sers which are so badly designed ergonomically that straight leg hiking is the only option. Knee damage is probably due to sailing twisted or with feet toed in causing imbalance between the muscles supporting the knee (as Steve C says) rather than having the knees bent or straight (my conclusion, though bent knees does put more strain on the ligaments in the knee). Straight legs are bad for the lower back and hips (which is where the bulk of my issues arise) bent legs reduce the strain on back, hips and abs (personal experience). Just looking at the various videos the extreme dynamics advocated by the top L@ser guys must be a major culprit when it comes to knee damage. Those sailors who advocate straight leg hiking mostly only do it for a few seconds at a time reverting to bent legs for most of the beat (Olympians and World championship contenders being notable exceptions). 

I wonder if my use of the term 'drop hiking' is misleading, suggesting the position Star crews adopt (with the associated hiking harness)? For clarity, I was referring to the method Paul Elvstrom developed in the Finn (highish freeboard and narrow side decks).  https://www.stfyc.com/images/dynamic/getImage.gif?ID=100003698" rel="nofollow - https://www.stfyc.com/images/dynamic/getImage.gif?ID=100003698


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 09 Sep 17 at 10:13am
This is not Paul Elvstrom Wink 

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20992587_10212568051569074_7692604824399095353_n.jpg?oh=83b5c2723100f06c97e95f389b90f674&oe=5A4BB117" rel="nofollow - https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20992587_10212568051569074_7692604824399095353_n.jpg?oh=83b5c2723100f06c97e95f389b90f674&oe=5A4BB117


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 09 Sep 17 at 4:08pm
With the Blaze you are bound to end up with a mix of Finn and Laser style hiking, and you choose which ever one hurts you least. 

If I was not racing and had a Blaze I'd extend the racks so that I could sit in the normal hiking position and not strain my knees and so enjoy my sailing more. I suppose if you were doing handicap racing you could negotiate a slightly lower PY. The basic idea would be to modify the boat and not the sailors body.


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 10 Sep 17 at 9:28am
Originally posted by Riv

With the Blaze you are bound to end up with a mix of Finn and Laser style hiking, and you choose which ever one hurts you least. 

If I was not racing and had a Blaze I'd extend the racks so that I could sit in the normal hiking position and not strain my knees and so enjoy my sailing more. I suppose if you were doing handicap racing you could negotiate a slightly lower PY. The basic idea would be to modify the boat and not the sailors body.

The Blaze is pretty comfy to hike to be fair. Just a bit of padding needed at the front edge if you want to hang forwards off it.


-------------
Paul
---------------------------
D-Zero GBR188
Ex Rooster 8.1 '11'
Ex Laser 167534
Ex Blaze 655


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 10 Sep 17 at 9:50am
Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by Riv

With the Blaze you are bound to end up with a mix of Finn and Laser style hiking, and you choose which ever one hurts you least. 

If I was not racing and had a Blaze I'd extend the racks so that I could sit in the normal hiking position and not strain my knees and so enjoy my sailing more. I suppose if you were doing handicap racing you could negotiate a slightly lower PY. The basic idea would be to modify the boat and not the sailors body.

The Blaze is pretty comfy to hike to be fair. Just a bit of padding needed at the front edge if you want to hang forwards off it.

All Blazes race with the racks at max extension and the old adage of "he who hikes hardest goes fastest" is still true. Admittedly an extra few inches of effort makes less difference than it does on a Laser but the difference is still significant. And negotiating a diffident handicap for 'lazy b@5tards'!!!!! 

As jeffers says Blaze is a pretty comfortable boat to hike......


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 10 Sep 17 at 4:19pm
I wouldn't so much say lazy, as becoming aware that my knees and back are valuable assets and are irreplaceable. Boats are not valuable in that sense and are easily replaceable. 30 years of Laser sailing and general abuse are catching up with me and I intend to sail and ride well into my 80s. A 2.4 is looking very desirableSmile



Posted By: piglet
Date Posted: 11 Sep 17 at 2:42pm
I have recently started sailing 300's and find the drop posture works well, no back or knee pain and seems more effective than going straight. I have to change to straight half way up the beat to relieve whatever muscle it is that keeps the toes hooked up, when I go straight I can feel my back loading up so I keep it to a minimum.
I also drop a bit in the 200
I am a short legged 5'6"


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 11 Sep 17 at 2:47pm
Originally posted by piglet


]I am a short legged 5'6"



So... I have many questions, where to start?



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https://www.edgeactionsports.co.uk/collections/snowboards" rel="nofollow - Ski boot heaters, edge tuners deals galore


Posted By: piglet
Date Posted: 11 Sep 17 at 2:55pm
Oh Ye that is averse to 300's, 200's, hiking and most things relating to our sport.
I am wondering if you would benefit from an alternative pastime.
Philately?


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 11 Sep 17 at 5:39pm
Originally posted by piglet

Oh Ye that is averse to 300's, 200's, hiking and most things relating to our sport.
I am wondering if you would benefit from an alternative pastime.
Philately?


I am the messiah, sent to save you all from yourselves and change your sport for the better.

So I know you really want to answer my questions.

1) How do you manage to climb up the side of a 300 during a tack, do you have steps? A ladder?

2) This facial expression, obviously de rigeur in the 300 class, do you practise in the mirror at night to perfect it?



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https://www.edgeactionsports.co.uk/collections/snowboards" rel="nofollow - Ski boot heaters, edge tuners deals galore


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 11 Sep 17 at 5:46pm
It would be good to have classes where one could sit out with bum over side comfortably, but be prohibited from getting out those few inches further into knee destruction mode. Sadly I'm not smart enough to think of a rule that would work.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 11 Sep 17 at 6:50pm
Yotty style guard rails that you are not allowed to sit on top of (maybe with razor wire on the topCry)?

Way back when I was sailing an Oppie sitting on the side was prohibited, you had to sit on the floor of the boat.......


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 11 Sep 17 at 7:44pm
The incidence of extreme hiking except in the highest of winds could be reduced by rebalancing the normally accepted ratio of power to righting moment.

That is: less sail area to beam (Blaze Fire & full racks) , lower aspect rigs and shorter dagger boards.

Of course there would be performance penalties but apart from iGRF I suspect most people here understand that you cannot bend the laws of physics to suit your perfect pattern. Last come last any dinghy will be a product of many compromises.  

 


Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 11 Sep 17 at 7:57pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

This is not Paul Elvstrom Wink 

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20992587_10212568051569074_7692604824399095353_n.jpg?oh=83b5c2723100f06c97e95f389b90f674&oe=5A4BB117" rel="nofollow - https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20992587_10212568051569074_7692604824399095353_n.jpg?oh=83b5c2723100f06c97e95f389b90f674&oe=5A4BB117

That is also not hiking.... LOL


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 11 Sep 17 at 8:06pm
jimc,
Whilst sitting on side of boat, buttocks must not un-perch, head must not go lower than 45 dgrees from vertical.
Call it the perching rule.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 11 Sep 17 at 8:19pm
Don't forget it needs to be a rule that's enforceable at club level where there's a reluctance to protest. It needs to be easier to enforce than the current kinetics rule.


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 11 Sep 17 at 8:27pm
You want a rule? Simple, ban toe straps.




Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 11 Sep 17 at 8:54pm
..........tie yer genitals to the toe straps.





Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 11 Sep 17 at 9:45pm
Just screw plastic chairs to the decks and sit in them.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: Gordon 1430
Date Posted: 12 Sep 17 at 10:05am
As the Phantoms say you need to Launch the Paunch to go fast in any wind. If you have no paunch
tough.


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Gordon
Phantom 1430


Posted By: piglet
Date Posted: 12 Sep 17 at 11:43am
Originally posted by iGRF

 
So I know you really want to answer my questions.
1) How do you manage to climb up the side of a 300 during a tack, do you have steps? A ladder?
2) This facial expression, obviously de rigeur in the 300 class, do you practise in the mirror at night to perfect it?

In answer:
1) Scooby Doo legs
2) I always look like that.


Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 12 Sep 17 at 12:18pm
Originally posted by Do Different

You want a rule? Simple, ban toe straps.

You mean like the Etchells do?


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OK 2122 & 2148


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 12 Sep 17 at 12:49pm
Originally posted by laser193713

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

This is not Paul Elvstrom Wink 

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20992587_10212568051569074_7692604824399095353_n.jpg?oh=83b5c2723100f06c97e95f389b90f674&oe=5A4BB117" rel="nofollow - https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20992587_10212568051569074_7692604824399095353_n.jpg?oh=83b5c2723100f06c97e95f389b90f674&oe=5A4BB117

That is also not hiking.... LOL

Big smile Boat flat, bum off edge, looks like it to me..... and it was very comfortable (and probably barely nibbling at a F3)

And, incidentally how do these guys reconcile with Steve C's 'do not point your toes in' ascertion?

https://vrsport.tv/vr-media/international-canoe-worlds-2017-final-day/" rel="nofollow - https://vrsport.tv/vr-media/international-canoe-worlds-2017-final-day/


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 12 Sep 17 at 3:45pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Originally posted by laser193713

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

This is not Paul Elvstrom Wink 

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20992587_10212568051569074_7692604824399095353_n.jpg?oh=83b5c2723100f06c97e95f389b90f674&oe=5A4BB117" rel="nofollow - https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20992587_10212568051569074_7692604824399095353_n.jpg?oh=83b5c2723100f06c97e95f389b90f674&oe=5A4BB117

That is also not hiking.... LOL

Big smile Boat flat, bum off edge, looks like it to me..... and it was very comfortable (and probably barely nibbling at a F3)

And, incidentally how do these guys reconcile with Steve C's 'do not point your toes in' ascertion?

https://vrsport.tv/vr-media/international-canoe-worlds-2017-final-day/" rel="nofollow - https://vrsport.tv/vr-media/international-canoe-worlds-2017-final-day/

This has bugged me because the boat isn't flat at all. I just measured the angle using cad software that allows a picture to be imported and the boat actually has just over 6 degrees of heel. 

I think the biggest thing to remember when hiking, or not hiking, is bums in shoulders back. This is by far the best way to protect your knees. You'll probably find that half of all club sailors would get more righting moment with their arse on the side of the boat and their back laid flat to the water than the way they currently hike. Not to mention the effort they would save doing it. It also allows for quicker and more refined adjustments. 




Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 12 Sep 17 at 4:04pm
Excuse me?

What's this?

Anorak nerd hikefest?

You did what?

Imported the picture into a cad programme to see if our friend is not hiking exactly vertical?

OK here is some bad news for you, you actually do need help, no really you really really need to see somebody, mental health issues are not the problem they once were, go to your doctors, tell him/her what you did and get some counselling... Seriously, do it, you need it..

-------------


https://www.edgeactionsports.co.uk/collections/snowboards" rel="nofollow - Ski boot heaters, edge tuners deals galore


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 12 Sep 17 at 4:32pm
Originally posted by laser193713

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Originally posted by laser193713

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

This is not Paul Elvstrom Wink 

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20992587_10212568051569074_7692604824399095353_n.jpg?oh=83b5c2723100f06c97e95f389b90f674&oe=5A4BB117" rel="nofollow - https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20992587_10212568051569074_7692604824399095353_n.jpg?oh=83b5c2723100f06c97e95f389b90f674&oe=5A4BB117

That is also not hiking.... LOL

Big smile Boat flat, bum off edge, looks like it to me..... and it was very comfortable (and probably barely nibbling at a F3)

And, incidentally how do these guys reconcile with Steve C's 'do not point your toes in' ascertion?

https://vrsport.tv/vr-media/international-canoe-worlds-2017-final-day/" rel="nofollow - https://vrsport.tv/vr-media/international-canoe-worlds-2017-final-day/

This has bugged me because the boat isn't flat at all. I just measured the angle using cad software that allows a picture to be imported and the boat actually has just over 6 degrees of heel.

LOL

I think the biggest thing to remember when hiking, or not hiking, is bums in shoulders back. This is by far the best way to protect your knees. You'll probably find that half of all club sailors would get more righting moment with their arse on the side of the boat and their back laid flat to the water than the way they currently hike. Not to mention the effort they would save doing it. It also allows for quicker and more refined adjustments. 




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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 12 Sep 17 at 4:37pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Excuse me?

What's this?

Anorak nerd hikefest?

You did what?

Imported the picture into a cad programme to see if our friend is not hiking exactly vertical?

OK here is some bad news for you, you actually do need help, no really you really really need to see somebody, mental health issues are not the problem they once were, go to your doctors, tell him/her what you did and get some counselling... Seriously, do it, you need it..

I had it open already... I was just interested that it was clearly not flat (but visually very close) and I wondered exactly what flat was perceived as. I didn't expect it to be as much as 6 degrees, so it was probably a worthwhile exercise seeing as it took less than 30 seconds.

But maybe you're right! LOL


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 12 Sep 17 at 5:43pm
I'll remember to take a spirit level with me next time I sail the Blaze Wink

But, yes it was interesting, I was aware it wasn't absolutely flat but would have said 5º was close enough to make little or no difference. This got me looking at the heel angles of some top Laser sailors (images of world championships) and it's pretty rare for any of them to show the boats completely flat upwind, despite that being the coaches mantra. I'll be happy with sub 6º heel angles upwind I reckon. Smile


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 14 Sep 17 at 1:07pm
Rupert, I'm reminded of the tractor seat on a pole the unit had. Nothing new under the sun. 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=unit+dinghy&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari#imgrc=H9BxFO-7B2iHFM:


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 14 Sep 17 at 1:15pm
Unless it's windy I really don't think flat is always as fast as they say anyway. Less wetted area slightly heeled, we'd never sail a board flat unless it's blowing and we're planing.


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https://www.edgeactionsports.co.uk/collections/snowboards" rel="nofollow - Ski boot heaters, edge tuners deals galore


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 14 Sep 17 at 1:34pm
It depends completely on the hull design. Some are much more tolerant of a few degrees heel than others.


Posted By: Wiclif
Date Posted: 14 Sep 17 at 6:36pm
OK, so I am sad too

Using the highly technical straight edge of a TV remote, it seems to me that half of the heel is because the rig is not perpendicular in the boat, as the rig is angled more than the hull


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 14 Sep 17 at 8:34pm
Slack rig is 'de rigure' on the Blaze ;)

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 14 Sep 17 at 9:42pm
One of the interesting things with the laser is that when it is fully flat the daggerboard starts to slop around, which is another reason you see them sailed slightly heeled. 

You joke about the spirit level but a simple inclinometer is a very overlooked bit of kit, if only for motivation to hike harder! Also interesting is that in high end keelboats (Fast 40, TP etc) it is quite common to sail to a heel angle downwind rather than a wind angle or target speed. 


Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 18 Sep 17 at 11:34am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

I'll remember to take a spirit level with me next time I sail the Blaze Wink

But, yes it was interesting, I was aware it wasn't absolutely flat but would have said 5º was close enough to make little or no difference. This got me looking at the heel angles of some top Laser sailors (images of world championships) and it's pretty rare for any of them to show the boats completely flat upwind, despite that being the coaches mantra. I'll be happy with sub 6º heel angles upwind I reckon. Smile

Lasers are a little different to most - the freeboard is so low that completely flat doesn't work in all sea states because the waves slap you even if you straight leg hike.  You also need a slight bit of heel for your upwind kinetics to be effective.

Slight heel + kinetics is much much faster than flat with no kinetics.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 18 Sep 17 at 3:00pm
Hmm kinetics? Would that be the same kinetics the Miracle mums keep shouting RR42 at me everytime I move a cramped muscle down the lake?

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https://www.edgeactionsports.co.uk/collections/snowboards" rel="nofollow - Ski boot heaters, edge tuners deals galore


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 18 Sep 17 at 3:48pm
Kinetics = ooching, rocking and pumping = cheating Angry

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: By The Lee
Date Posted: 18 Sep 17 at 4:23pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Kinetics = ooching, rocking and pumping = cheating Angry

Expect that isn't true is it...


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 18 Sep 17 at 4:30pm

42.2

Prohibited Actions

Without limiting the application of rule 42.1, these actions are prohibited:

  1. (a)  pumping: repeated fanning of any sail either by pulling in and releasing the sail or by vertical or athwartship body movement;

  2. (b)  rocking: repeated rolling of the boat, induced by

    1. (1)  body movement,

    2. (2)  repeated adjustment of the sails or centreboard, or

    (3) steering;

  3. (c)  ooching: sudden forward body movement, stopped abruptly;

  4. (d)  sculling: repeated movement of the helm that is either forceful or that propels the boat forward or prevents her from moving astern;

  5. (e)  repeated tacks or gybes unrelated to changes in the wind or to tactical considerations. 



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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: By The Lee
Date Posted: 18 Sep 17 at 4:33pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

42.2

Prohibited Actions

Without limiting the application of rule 42.1, these actions are prohibited:

  1. (a)  pumping: repeated fanning of any sail either by pulling in and releasing the sail or by vertical or athwartship body movement;

  2. (b)  rocking: repeated rolling of the boat, induced by

    1. (1)  body movement,

    2. (2)  repeated adjustment of the sails or centreboard, or

    (3) steering;

  3. (c)  ooching: sudden forward body movement, stopped abruptly;

  4. (d)  sculling: repeated movement of the helm that is either forceful or that propels the boat forward or prevents her from moving astern;

  5. (e)  repeated tacks or gybes unrelated to changes in the wind or to tactical considerations. 


You missed the important bit Wink

42.3 Exceptions (a) A boat may be rolled to facilitate steering. (b) A boat’s crew may move their bodies to exaggerate the rolling that facilitates steering the boat through a tack or a gybe, provided that, just after the tack or gybe is completed, the boat’s speed is not greater than it would have been in the absence of the tack or gybe. (c) Except on a beat to windward, when surfing (rapidly accelerating down the front of a wave) or planing is possible, the boat’s crew may pull in any sail in order to initiate surfing or planing, but each sail may be pulled in only once for each wave or gust of wind. (d) When a boat is above a close-hauled course and either stationary or moving slowly, she may scull to turn to a closehauled course. (e) If a batten is inverted, the boat’s crew may pump the sail until the batten is no longer inverted. This action is not permitted if it clearly propels the boat. (f) A boat may reduce speed by repeatedly moving her helm. Part 4 OTHER REQUIREMENTS WHEN RACING 28 (g) Any means of propulsion may be used to help a person or another vessel in danger. (h) To get clear after grounding or colliding with a vessel or object, a boat may use force applied by her crew or the crew of the other vessel and any equipment other than a propulsion engine. However, the use of an engine may be permitted by rule 42.3(i). (i) Sailing instructions may, in stated circumstances, permit propulsion using an engine or any other method, provided the boat does not gain a significant advantage in the race.


Posted By: piglet
Date Posted: 18 Sep 17 at 4:39pm
You beat me to it!
Also 42.2 doesn't prohibit 'torquing'


Posted By: By The Lee
Date Posted: 18 Sep 17 at 4:40pm
Correct as torquing doesn't propel the boat


Posted By: piglet
Date Posted: 18 Sep 17 at 4:45pm
(c) ooching: sudden forward body movement, stopped abruptly;

Fine line between that & torqueing though.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 18 Sep 17 at 6:12pm
'torquing' (WTF that is) must make the boat go faster or they wouldn't bother doing it

42.1 Basic Rule

Except when permitted in rule 42.3 or 45, a boat shall compete by using only the wind and water to increase, maintain or decrease her speed. Her crew may adjust the trim of sails and hull, and perform other acts of seamanship, but shall not otherwise move their bodies to propel the boat. 



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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: By The Lee
Date Posted: 18 Sep 17 at 6:17pm
Torquing is used injunction with steering over waves it lifts and sinks the bow but does not propel the boat 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wgoeKkE_K0


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 18 Sep 17 at 6:22pm
IIRC, we used to be allowed one 'ooch' as well as one pump to promote planing (back in the '70s, then it became irrelevant to me as I was racing windsurfers). 

As far as I can see rule 42.3 doesn't allow 'torquing' when sailing upwind (very prevalent amongst L@ser sailors (along with rocking, pumping and ooching downwind). No longer does a (to paraphrase Eric T) "a chorus of 'heave' in time with the offenders rhythm" seem effective......


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: By The Lee
Date Posted: 18 Sep 17 at 7:08pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

IIRC, we used to be allowed one 'ooch' as well as one pump to promote planing (back in the '70s, then it became irrelevant to me as I was racing windsurfers). 

As far as I can see rule 42.3 doesn't allow 'torquing' when sailing upwind (very prevalent amongst L@ser sailors (along with rocking, pumping and ooching downwind). No longer does a (to paraphrase Eric T) "a chorus of 'heave' in time with the offenders rhythm" seem effective......

That is because it isn't prohibited under 42.2 as it does not propel the boat forward.... most Laser events have on the water jury judging rule 42 sailors are rarely flagged upwind a torquing doesn't propel the boat. "rocking, pumping and ooching downwind" is permitted as long as it accompanies a change in course as permitted by 42.3. Must club sailors sit still like a sack of potatoes then wonder why the are painfully slow 


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 18 Sep 17 at 8:57pm
Didn't know the forward and back movement over waves was called torquing. Nothing wrong with that, but the other stuff that goes on in Lasers, and elsewhere, and now seems acceptable, is on the whole blatantly using kenetics to make the boat go faster. The huge pump off the start line, supposedly allowed because of a change of course. Total b**locks. The change of course allows a body weight movement to facilitate it, that is fine. Changing course to allow a body weight movement is cheating, full stop.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 18 Sep 17 at 8:58pm
And yes, I'm good at cheating by breaking rule 42, but now avoid classes where you have to.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 18 Sep 17 at 9:35pm
Originally posted by By The Lee

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

IIRC, we used to be allowed one 'ooch' as well as one pump to promote planing (back in the '70s, then it became irrelevant to me as I was racing windsurfers). 

As far as I can see rule 42.3 doesn't allow 'torquing' when sailing upwind (very prevalent amongst L@ser sailors (along with rocking, pumping and ooching downwind). No longer does a (to paraphrase Eric T) "a chorus of 'heave' in time with the offenders rhythm" seem effective......

That is because it isn't prohibited under 42.2 as it does not propel the boat forward.... most Laser events have on the water jury judging rule 42 sailors are rarely flagged upwind a torquing doesn't propel the boat. "rocking, pumping and ooching downwind" is permitted as long as it accompanies a change in course as permitted by 42.3. Must club sailors sit still like a sack of potatoes then wonder why the are painfully slow 

That sound's like tacit acceptance in the way that pumping was for windsurfing. The WS racers argued it was too much a natural part of sailing a board to be outlawed and it was legalised, to the benefit of the young, fit (and usually big) athletes. I'm not saying dinghy racing should not be an athletic pursuit but as it moves (as windsurfing did with Formula Windsurfing) towards brute force being the main requirement for winning over tactics and finesse it becomes a less attractive sport to me.


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: By The Lee
Date Posted: 18 Sep 17 at 9:41pm
Fair point personally I think of it as a exciting physicality however I could see why this might not be appealing to all...


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 18 Sep 17 at 9:50pm
And that may be part of the reason I don't sail L@sers (and BTW may be part of the reason GRF's much despised 'classic classes' are still popular as the reward tactics and fineness more than simple physicality,

BTW I was pretty good on a Raceboard at regional level (and did once win a Masters National Champs) particularly in the light stuff so I do get the 'exciting physicality' bit (I could pump with the best of them in a drifter) but, in Raceboards, the move to a 9.5 metre sail was a step too far for me.


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 18 Sep 17 at 10:21pm
You can blame me for pumping being permitted in windsurfing which in those days of 5.4 and 6.3 race sails was less duress than leaning into a 9.5 that's for sure.

I have learned how to do most of the illegal stuff in dinghies, I don't do it on the lake, but on the sea, you can't help yourself, everything is so fluid, back and forth, side to side with the wave motion it seems silly to waste all that helpful natural energy and convert it into forward motion with symbiotic body movements. It's not like windsurfing you simply cannot get the forward scoop movement to produce a continuous flowing, air rowing movement that you can on a rig free of all constraints. There's an annoying delay once you sheet in, whilst the rig sheets out, refills and you can haul it again, it doesn't make sense to keep hauling it either so it does actually make sense to just time the yank with the right moment as the stern lifts on a wave.

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https://www.edgeactionsports.co.uk/collections/snowboards" rel="nofollow - Ski boot heaters, edge tuners deals galore


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 19 Sep 17 at 8:20am
Wasting natural energy isn't the problem. Creating unnatural energy is.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 19 Sep 17 at 9:39am
Originally posted by iGRF

You can blame me for pumping being permitted in windsurfing which in those days of 5.4 and 6.3 race sails was less duress than leaning into a 9.5 that's for sure.

I guess it was inevitable that it would happen. I started in DIV1 (Sailboard Vario and Tushingham dacron 6.3 soft sail on an ally mast and 2.7m boom) and moved through having strong and light wind 6m camber induced sails (6.0 SRS bought off John Tushingham, brilliant in the light, unmanageable above F4) on my Mistral Superlight (best board ever in the light stuff). The move to Raceboards and 7.5m sails was good and the combination of a Demon Design VG5 (I've had 4, still have the most recent) and a Mistral Equipe 2 was well on the pace and a perfect setup for the average (i.e. not super-fit or super large) sailor. I could/can pump it in 0-20 knots and hang on in 25 (but not the 30 knots that Sean Cox claims it is useable in).

I have learned how to do most of the illegal stuff in dinghies, I don't do it on the lake, but on the sea, you can't help yourself, everything is so fluid, back and forth, side to side with the wave motion it seems silly to waste all that helpful natural energy and convert it into forward motion with symbiotic body movements. It's not like windsurfing you simply cannot get the forward scoop movement to produce a continuous flowing, air rowing movement that you can on a rig free of all constraints. There's an annoying delay once you sheet in, whilst the rig sheets out, refills and you can haul it again, it doesn't make sense to keep hauling it either so it does actually make sense to just time the yank with the right moment as the stern lifts on a wave.

Which is legal (and almost always has been so).....

I wonder if the huge advantage Steve Cockrell's '4th dimension' confers is because it is a 'legal' (?) way of rocking/pumping?


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 19 Sep 17 at 12:17pm
4th Dimension? what's that? Linky?

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Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 19 Sep 17 at 1:05pm
4th Dimension is just sailing by the lee really, but to me Steve's main innovation was to bear off when the boat rolled to windward to bring it upright again instead of sharply heading up to windward and letting centrifugal forces bring you upright again.

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OK 2122 & 2148


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 19 Sep 17 at 1:25pm
https://www.roostersailing.com/blog/boat-whisperer-talks-2/" rel="nofollow - https://www.roostersailing.com/blog/boat-whisperer-talks-2/

He bears away while throwing himself across the boat.........


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 19 Sep 17 at 3:01pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

'torquing' (WTF that is) must make the boat go faster or they wouldn't bother doing it

42.1 Basic Rule

Except when permitted in rule 42.3 or 45, a boat shall compete by using only the wind and water to increase, maintain or decrease her speed. Her crew may adjust the trim of sails and hull, and perform other acts of seamanship, but shall not otherwise move their bodies to propel the boat. 


I think the on the water juries you get at laser events, who are themselves usually IJ's or NJ's, probably have a good idea of what is and isn't allowed within the rules.  The SI's usually make this completely rock solid as there is no right to redress/protest an on the water R42 call, so if a juror thinks it's legal, it's legal, and if they think it's not legal, it's not legal.

So perhaps the people you think are cheating are actually just doing it right...?

P.S Torquing is adjusting the trim (the pitch, actually) of the hull forcefully as it goes over the crest of a wave so that it stays in smooth contact with the water rather than slamming and allows the boat to shoot down the back of the wave rather than just stopping.  It's clearly within the definition you've posted.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 19 Sep 17 at 3:09pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons


https://www.roostersailing.com/blog/boat-whisperer-talks-2/" rel="nofollow - https://www.roostersailing.com/blog/boat-whisperer-talks-2/
He bears away while throwing himself across the boat.........


You have to do that anyway, it's a right balancing act and the bloody boat rocks and rolls all on its own, especially a round bottom beast like the EPS, then the wind shifts, you miss it and the Contender you're trying to stay ahead off starts overhauling you and you have to rapidly re position and sheet it... Nightmare

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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 19 Sep 17 at 3:43pm
That'll be how they get away with it, they perform an un-seamanlike manoeuvre and then throw themselves across the boat to save the capsize Wink

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 19 Sep 17 at 4:00pm
Just watched that whole thing, good to note some of the bits I've taught myself are correct, not sure about all that happy sail sad sail stuff, but he's certainly spot on about the rudder thing working the way he describes sometimes against what you think it's going to do and the induced nose dives.

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Posted By: Oatsandbeans
Date Posted: 19 Sep 17 at 6:39pm
Yes what was it about those 6.0m SRS sails from Tush -they were impossible above 18 knots never understood what was going on there.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 20 Sep 17 at 9:20am
Faster than anything else in the light though (well, except the Batwing and Demon which had the same issues when it picked up). I just had another 6m Tush for F4+

The problem/advantage with the SRS was the head was very full in the days when flat heads and floppy leeches were the "new-big-thing" in windsurfing sails. That gave it loads of power but little or no de-powerability as it wouldn't 'blade out'. It won me a fair number of races though Smile


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: Oatsandbeans
Date Posted: 20 Sep 17 at 7:29pm
I susepct that they were their first attempt at a floppy leach sail. Roger said that you had to set them differntly with no outhaul and loads of downhaul. We really had no clue what he was talking about at the time, as up to then we all set sails with loads of outhaul and no downhaul. So we were possibly to blame to some extent for the sails being so difficult as we had no idea how to set them up.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 20 Sep 17 at 9:38pm
I'm not so sure, I had a pink and white Tush 6m from the same year which did go floppy, I think those particular SRS 6s were optimised for Div 1 and max power in lighter winds as were the Demon Design and Batwing. I bought mine of John T who was an active Div 1 racer at the time. There was no way they would blade out like the other, more fun board oriented 6m as they had so much fullness in the head. A few years later my 7.5m Demon VG5 Raceboard would do so if you put a super stiff top batten and down hauled the f*!k out of it.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"



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