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Here's an interesting one..

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12830
Printed Date: 15 Dec 17 at 2:01pm
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Topic: Here's an interesting one..
Posted By: iGRF
Subject: Here's an interesting one..
Date Posted: 21 Aug 17 at 1:16pm
This sunday on the lake which has marks scattered around the periphery, but with a couple midway up so the course involves a beat to two right upwind, then a long end to end run, a beat halfway back up then reach back a bit off to the right then a beat through the start gate and back off up to the two top marks again. Difficult to describe all this but it's a bit puffy and shifty but the downwind leg you have the entire width of the lake to gybe on the shifts or spot gusts and try to use them downwind, so the course is from a buoy right in the top left corner of the lake right down to a buoy in the bottom right hand corner.

Half way back up there is a windward mark I'm approaching on starboard and will have to tack to leave it to Port then set off on a reach at an angle of say 90 degrees to the mean course from top to bottom. Now a Solo is coming downwind on it's way to the bottom mark and as I tack to round the buoy I notice it's suddenly a bit closer than I'd comfortably like to see it, it is aiming right at the mark I'm about to round, I'm ahead, the Solo has to continue further downwind and round the mark previous and then come back up wind, I'm chasing my fellow Solutioneer and he's getting away in the same puff.

Now having tacked and midway through the bear off the Solo hails starboard and is getting very close yet to clear this mark he would have to bear away and to avoid it harden up, quite why he's going anywhere near it is beyond me it's not exactly on the rhumb line to the correct course to the mark he's supposed to be headed but who knows maybe a shift took him that way although I doubt the solo is the sort of boat that benefits from sailing hot angles, but he's there and hailing..

So in dashing across his bows rounding the buoy onto my leg, I am presumably breaking the rules, no collision did occur and a bit of moaning took place on the shore and it is Port starboard since I had to tack onto Port to round my mark, had I hesitated and done nothing it also could have caused a collision so I could call Col regs, could I have hardened back up tacked off, I'm not sure, it was that close...

So what does the team think...

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Replies:
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 21 Aug 17 at 1:43pm
If the Solo changed course, and needed to do so to avoid you any time after you passed head to wind tacking from starboard to port, you did not keep clear and broke either rule 13 or 10.

If the Solo, on a different leg to you, was not sailing her proper course and she 'interfered' with you, and it was reasonably possible for her not to do so, she broke rule 24.2.

If the Solo broke rule 24.2 and in doing so, compelled you to break rule 10 or 13, you are exonerated by rule 64.1( a ).


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 21 Aug 17 at 4:44pm
OMG there's a protest room and a half...

My assertion would be that the mark I was rounding was not in anyway part of the course to the mark he was headed, nor would the race team have set it as such and anyone in their right mind knowing windward boats would be rounding it should be giving it a wide berth.

But he's perfectly free presumably to follow downwind shifts and zig zag, so how does 'proper course' stand up to that?

I should have worked out which side of the mark he'd likely pass whilst still on starboard, before I tacked, like all these things nothing done deliberately here, just heat of the race and focus on the mark not anything upwind likely to be coming down to nail you. Do marks that carry zones that apply to those using them also apply to those whilst not on that particular leg, and would be perfectly able to stay well clear? If not, logic would say they should.


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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 22 Aug 17 at 1:00am
Originally posted by iGRF

OMG there's a protest room and a half...

My assertion would be that the mark I was rounding was not in anyway part of the course to the mark he was headed, nor would the race team have set it as such and

anyone in their right mind knowing windward boats would be rounding it should be giving it a wide berth.

Why should they give it a wide berth if the course they would sail to finish as soon as possible (their proper course) would take them near it?

But he's perfectly free presumably to follow downwind shifts and zig zag,

Yes she is.  See above.

 so how does 'proper course' stand up to that?

See above.

I should have worked out which side of the mark he'd likely pass whilst still on starboard, before I tacked, like all these things nothing done deliberately here, just heat of the race and focus on the mark not anything upwind likely to be coming down to nail you.

Not paying attention to other boats around you can have unfortunate consequences.  See recent news about the US Navy.

Do marks that carry zones that apply to those using them also apply to those whilst not on that particular leg,

Well, all marks have a zone around them (Definitions:  zone).

No.  Rule 18 mark-room applies between boats when they are required to leave a mark on the same side.

At a mark which one boat is required to leave on a specified side and another boat that is not required to leave the mark on any particular side, rule 18 does not apply.

and would be perfectly able to stay well clear?

Whether or not she is able to, a boat is only required to keep clear if she is a give way boat under one of rules 10 (port/starboard), 11 (windward/leeward), 12 (clear ahead/astern), 13 (while tacking), or 22(starting, penalties, backing).

If not, logic would say they should.

I disagree.  Logic says a boat can sail wherever she chooses unless the rules say otherwise.

You have got all the protection you deserve from rule 24.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 22 Aug 17 at 12:29pm
Originally posted by Brass


I disagree.  Logic says a boat can sail wherever she chooses unless the rules say otherwise.
You have got all the protection you deserve from rule 24.

[/QUOTE]

Well that doesn't exactly tie in with 'proper course' does it?

Then again what could be described as 'proper course' for say a fleet of 49ers on a dead run, other than deliberately sailing someone below a lay line for advantage.

So I wonder are there definitions to describe 'proper' course when discussing a Solo and would they be different for say a 49er?

Then, throw a mark of the next leg of the course in the mix that is way off to the left of the direct line between windward and leeward and has boats rounding it on a windward leg as the tailenders are still going downwind from a point some way above. Is there a proper course defined that is suitable for all? Just asking at this point.


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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 22 Aug 17 at 1:16pm
There is no single proper course, nor should there be. And if a boat goes wandering round the ocean at random - perhaps making a mistake and sailing to the wrong mark - then the best course from that wrong point to the next mark becomes a proper course, even though its nothing like the best course for her to have sailed overall. I'm not quite sure how precisely this ties up with 24 though.

There are some hypotheticals for RRS 24 in case 126, but they are all concerned with one boat luffing another, not two boats whose paths happen to cross.

Two boats on the same leg sailing near one another may have different proper courses (Case 14).

There is also no rule that requires a boat to sail a proper course (Case 9).

A boat’s proper course at any moment depends on the existing conditions.
Some of those conditions are the wind strength and direction, the pattern of
gusts and lulls in the wind, the waves, the current, and the physical
characteristics of the boat’s hull and equipment, including the sails she is
using. (Case 134)


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 22 Aug 17 at 1:59pm
Originally posted by JimC

There is no single proper course, nor should there be. And if a boat goes wandering round the ocean at random


Well that's not my interpretation as far as I can recall the proper course is to do with finishing the race at the earliest opportunity. i.e. not deviating for 'random' reasons, like deliberately attempting a diversion to thwart a competitor with a needless starboard call, or luffing them over the horizon - I could be wrong of course, maybe I'll look it up and refresh my memory.

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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 22 Aug 17 at 2:38pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by Brass


I disagree.  Logic says a boat can sail wherever she chooses unless the rules say otherwise.
You have got all the protection you deserve from rule 24.


Well that doesn't exactly tie in with 'proper course' does it? 

Please open the rule book and read the Definition of proper course and rule 24.

Rule 24.2 is all about proper course.

Then again what could be described as 'proper course' for say a fleet of 49ers on a dead run, other than deliberately sailing someone below a lay line for advantage.

49ers fall over if they try to sail on a dead run.

There are two possible courses for a 49er on a dead downwind leg:  port gybe or starboard gybe.

To determine which one is the proper course for a particular boat, you have to find out why that is the course the the skipper 'would' sail.

So I wonder are there definitions to describe 'proper' course when discussing a Solo and would they be different for say a 49er? 

Almost certainly different.

A boat's proper course depends, among the other things that JimC has helpfully listed, on the characteristics of the boat.

Then, throw a mark of the next leg of the course in the mix that is way off to the left of the direct line between windward and leeward and has boats rounding it on a windward leg as the tailenders are still going downwind from a point some way above.

Is there a proper course defined that is suitable for all? Just asking at this point. 

Proper course for each boat is what the skipper, if asked, can justify.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 22 Aug 17 at 2:55pm
well lets take an example. Supposing boat A has luffed boat B into the next county, and is 100 yards upwind of the next mark, but the overlap got broken and made again and now boat A may not sail above her proper course. Is her proper course a line from where she is now to the next mark, or is it a line somewhere 100 yards downwind?
Proper Course
A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat has no proper course before her starting signal.

I'm confident that means the course the boat would sail to finish as soon as possible *from where she is now*, otherwise you get the nonsense in my example above, but there is a small question mark in my mind as regards RRS24.

I think though I were on a PC, and found that the boat being protested had carefully sailed herself into a position where she could impede a boat on another leg without diverting from what was now a proper course I'd vote to DSQ then under RRS24/RRS2 and rely on the Appeals folk to correct the decision if it was wrong. In your case though it doesn't sound as if the other boat was trying to slow you up, just that they didn't want you slowing them up.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 22 Aug 17 at 3:13pm
More like they were in abject terror at the gust and didn't want to be where they were anyway.

It's always been an ambiguous term, the proper course I might take will be different to others or I wouldn't win or lose would I? If we all sailed the 'poper course' according to that term of reference we'd all arrive at the finish line together.

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Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 22 Aug 17 at 10:37pm
I'd suggest the key in situations like this (we get them all the time) is anticipation and communication. There's usually a way to cross eachother without too much inconvenience and Murphy's Law says that's often the inverse of what the rules want.

In the same way that, when beating on starboard, it is often best to wave the port tacker on and duck them, a quick chat and compromise by both parties can minimise the interference with each other's race. What goes around, comes around and all that. The jobsworth attitude of "i know my rights" is for losers.




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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 23 Aug 17 at 9:13am
Yep fully agree with that sentiment, but it helps to know what should happen according to rules, amazing after 40 odd years you can still come up against stuff you haven't experienced before, too many triangle sausages and box courses I guess.

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Posted By: Fatboi
Date Posted: 23 Aug 17 at 10:37am
I think looking at it very simply that GRF, you would be in the wrong. Not intentionally, but accidentally.

The solo sailing downwind has every right to sail his angle or course. He does not have to assume that you are going to tack around the mark, then head off on your reach, so does not have to allow for this on his course. You could be heading anywhere and he doesn't have to assume that is your mark, especially with a tricky course!

Even if it was the other way around and you had tacked onto starboard, he would not have to assume or plan that you are going to do this and you would have to prove that you gave them enough room to keep clear (Usually hailing early and clearly of what you intend to do is fine to prove this).

I guess the solution is that before we go for a manure, we have a good look around as best as possible to see whats coming. 


Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 23 Aug 17 at 10:56am
Originally posted by iGRF

Yep fully agree with that sentiment

who are you and how did you hack iGRF's account LOL


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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 23 Aug 17 at 11:47am
Originally posted by Fatboi

I think looking at it very simply that GRF, you would be in the wrong.

At the lake the very fact I'm on the water I'm in the wrong, if it's not rule 42 it'll generally be 69 is it, the 'inappropriate conduct' no mooning the kids rule

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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 23 Aug 17 at 11:49am
Originally posted by Fatboi

Even if it was the other way around and you had tacked onto starboard, he would not have to assume or plan that you are going to do this and you would have to prove that you gave them enough room to keep clear (Usually hailing early and clearly of what you intend to do is fine to prove this).
Where on earth did you get this from?

'Opportunity' was deleted from the rules in the 1995 rewrite (along with the general requirements for hailing in what used to be rule 32.2), specifically to remove this line of argument.

A boat is judged by what it does not what it says.

An obligation to keep clear arises when the transition occurs and not before, and until the obligation to keep clear kicks in, the other boat is neither required nor expected to take any action whatsoever.


Posted By: Fatboi
Date Posted: 23 Aug 17 at 1:39pm
Opportunity wasnt mentioned. 

It was from sitting in a protest room at the RYA ET finals this year as a coach for the weekend.

There was an incident coming into a windward mark, where 2 boats were coming on on port to a windward mark. The inside boat did not hail for room and then at the last min made a stbd boat tack to avoid.

He protested the boat outside him, saying it should have given him room. 

The jury found the outside boat did not have to anticipate his actions, to avoid a stbd boat by bearing away to give them room to avoid, as it could have tacked and by hailing very late, then the outside boat did not have enough room (time) to make that space available.

By not hailing early and clearly, they said that the outside boat did not have to anticipate your actions and therefore he was not entitled to duck as there was another escape route. 

I just applied the fact that they did not have to anticipate any change until it had happened and that hailing helps to prove you have made someone aware. This is a way to try and make clear what you are going to do, so that someone has room to avoid early and to try and prevent a situation.


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 23 Aug 17 at 3:14pm
Originally posted by Fatboi

Opportunity wasnt mentioned. 

It was from sitting in a protest room at the RYA ET finals this year as a coach for the weekend.

There was an incident coming into a windward mark, where 2 boats were coming on on port to a windward mark. The inside boat did not hail for room and then at the last min made a stbd boat tack to avoid.

He protested the boat outside him, saying it should have given him room. 

The jury found the outside boat did not have to anticipate his actions, to avoid a stbd boat by bearing away to give them room to avoid, as it could have tacked and by hailing very late, then the outside boat did not have enough room (time) to make that space available.

By not hailing early and clearly, they said that the outside boat did not have to anticipate your actions and therefore he was not entitled to duck as there was another escape route. 

I just applied the fact that they did not have to anticipate any change until it had happened and that hailing helps to prove you have made someone aware. This is a way to try and make clear what you are going to do, so that someone has room to avoid early and to try and prevent a situation.

That sounds very like the protest committee's decision in http://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/cases/634?page=2" rel="nofollow - Case 11

Can you provide a copy/link to the written protest decision?


Posted By: Fatboi
Date Posted: 23 Aug 17 at 3:48pm
I would have no idea on where to find that if I am honest.

Room was only hailed right at the last second, so slightly different as to that case. Especially as when it was called the leeward boat couldn't give enough room for them to keep clear, differently to the case you have shown where they could very easily, they just didn't respond. I am surprised in that case PL didn't get binned straight away...

I think the safest and best approach is to hail early, then there is more chance that both boats can avoid without messing each other up and sail cleaner.


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 23 Aug 17 at 11:32pm
Originally posted by Fatboi

Room was only hailed right at the last second, so slightly different as to that case.

My problem is why anyone would think that a hail was relevant to boat's entitlements under rule 19.2 at all.

CASE 41
... There is no obligation to hail for room at an obstruction, but it is prudent to do so.

Especially as when it was called the leeward boat couldn't give enough room for them to keep clear,

So you are saying that the port leeward boat was unable to give the room required by rule 19, presumably because of other oncoming starboard tack boats?

...
I think the safest and best approach is to hail early, then there is more chance that both boats can avoid without messing each other up and sail cleaner.

Indeed, but the rules don't require boats to do what is safest and best:  they merely require that boats comply with the rules.



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