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Step 2, RS 300?

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Choosing a boat
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URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12797
Printed Date: 20 Oct 17 at 10:44pm
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Topic: Step 2, RS 300?
Posted By: Papa Smurf
Subject: Step 2, RS 300?
Date Posted: 18 Jul 17 at 6:02pm
So. Four years with a Laser and now I'm looking to change boat.

The Laser was always going to be a stepping stone to other things. Taught me to sail and get around a course. A bit like a first car, it got me going but isn't where I want to be.

I'm looking for a boat that is a pleasure to sail. 

I'm on the periphery of the racing scene, I enjoy taking part but cannot attend often enough to be a contender. It took me a while to accept that, but it isn't going to change any time soon, so better to enjoy the boat I'm sailing than to continue with one that isn't a great deal of fun just to be part of a single class fleet.There is enough of a mix in our Fast Handicap Fleet to make things interesting, should I find the right boat to join it.

The obvious choice would be one of the older classes, Solo, Streaker, Supernova (not Fast Handicap, 'though popular at my Club), but what appeals is the Aero, D-Zero, RS100. At 80kg's I'm too light for a Phantom, which is a shame as I think they are a beautiful boat.

Then we have the RS300. A bit of a wild card option. They are supposed to be a great boat to sail. A lot of fun, but a handful. 

I'm a reasonable helm, nothing special, mid fleet or a little higher.

I spent the first year or two falling out of my Laser, quite spectacularly on occasion, so getting wet hasn't yet faded from memory.

I'm tempted to go a little daft with the 300 for a while to see how I get on. Ten years from now the 300 will be far less of an option Smile



Replies:
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 18 Jul 17 at 7:00pm
The 300 is a boat that rewards (and to some extent needs) a lot of time in the boat as it will punish silly mistakes. So if you are a little rusty then expect to swim more. That said when I sailed one I liked it a lot, never had one out in a blow though.

D-Zero (serious bias here I am involved with the class) lovely boat. Described as like a 300 but more forgiving. If you want a sail in one drop me a line and i can probably put you in touch with someone local who would be willing.

I sailed a Laser for a long time (and dabbled in other classes). Had a D-Zero pretty much since launch and love it.


-------------
Paul
---------------------------
D-Zero GBR188
Ex Rooster 8.1 '11'
Ex Laser 167534
Ex Blaze 655


Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 18 Jul 17 at 9:22pm
We had 2 sailors who tried that transition.  One sailed his 300 once and has now moved on.  The other is persevering and loving it.  For me the 300 has been a life long (it's not mine) love affair.  I've had one 20 years and I just love sailing it.  But I can also remember the hard times before I got over the hump of required skills.  It gave me some tough love!  You need to try before you buy.  If you get on with it then great.

Where are you based/do you sail?

And for me the line about the DZero that it's like a 300 but more forgiving is paradoxical. 


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 19 Jul 17 at 12:01am
When you say you "can't attend enough to be a contender" do you mean you sail a lot but only race once or twice a month (at my club twice a month would get you a result) or only sail once or twice a month? If the former the 300 may be an enjoyable challenge, if the latter, a frustrating pig of a thing...... 

Since last November I've raced most weeks, in the Blaze until I bought Supernova last month and every week since. I've raced 'dolly the sheep' three times so far and, after gelling with the Blaze almost straight away I'm really struggling to make her go. Try to get a test sail in the boats on your short list and remember (as somebody on here likes to say..... sorry I can't remember who or the precise words but the sentiment is more or less) "buying a boat is not a marriage, you can sell it on and buy something different without guilt"


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: Phil_1193
Date Posted: 19 Jul 17 at 6:18am
Originally posted by Papa Smurf

........ At 80kg's I'm too light for a Phantom.....


No you aren't

Try one before you think its all fat blokes. Ok so 90% of the fleet drop in the 90-110kg range but, flat cut sail, high mod carbon mast and you will be suprised how easy it is to sail.


Posted By: Papa Smurf
Date Posted: 19 Jul 17 at 7:27am
When you say you "can't attend enough to be a contender" do you mean you sail a lot but only race once or twice a month (at my club twice a month would get you a result) or only sail once or twice a month? If the former the 300 may be an enjoyable challenge, if the latter, a frustrating pig of a thing...... 

I work away from home for half the year, two months here, two months there.

When I'm back I sail whenever I can, two or three times a week. I occasionally sail / train during the working week, though doing so means sailing alone as there aren't many others in a similar position.

I find that if my work schedule has me home for the start of the season then all is good. I'm reasonably competitive as everyone is getting up to speed after winter layup. My problem is that when I return home after a period overseas I struggle to catch up with those that have spent that time racing.

This is life, no point in complaining about it. To make the most of it I would like to be playing catch up in a boat that is more enjoyable to sail than my Laser.

I have always lusted after a Phantom. They look very well done. Those on our water are well sailed. At 80kg's I have always thought myself too light for the boat.

Which brings me to the Solution. Another boat I like, but one that hasn't seemed to take off. The Aero and D-Zero look to have superceded it. The D-Zero in particular is a good looking boat with some excellent reviews. 

Now we are looking at modern boats the RS100 needs a mention, if for no other reason than it looks like fun. Unfortunately as an asymmetric it wouldn't be best served at my Club. The reduction in the number of double handers in general and asymmetric's in particular means that we don't set courses to suit them.

The RS300 comes into the mix as an older boat at a good price, a reputation as a difficult but hugely rewarding boat to sail.
 
I haven't made a decision other than that I need to move on from the Laser. I'm still open minded about the options I have.

I'm looking at the 300 now because there is one for sale near me. 

I would expect the learning curve with the 300 to be a rather wet one. I'm not so concerned about being successful or competitive immediately. I understand from all I have read that it is a challenging boat to sail. What does concern me is my ability to make progress with the boat with the interuptions in my sailing that my work schedule brings. 


Posted By: piglet
Date Posted: 19 Jul 17 at 10:08am
I bought an old 300 at the end of last season and have been chipping away at it when crew that must be obeyed fancies the afternoon off from the 200.
I am enjoying the 300 but this is what I think, for what it's worth:
Skill level, I did the Contender circuit for a few years, sailed Lasers a fair bit & assys.
Weight, 71Kg, bit light for 300 with B rig but doesn't seem to be a problem.
Fitness, I do some cct training fitness stuff & Yoga, at 51 it's use it or lose it.
I didn't find the boat too hard to step into but it's nothing like a Laser, very wobbly, a right bitch until the foils are down and getting the board in is an art in itself.
Upwind it wants to be flat or towards you and that means hiking hard.
Downwind I'm still working it out but there's a lot going on.
Capsize recovery is an art, at first I really struggled to get back in but I've sussed it now, Fitness!
Wind strengths, the 300 seems to excel in the mid strength, it's horrible when it's light and at 20Kts I'm still trying to work it out, gybing has to be spot on, not there yet.
I have come to the conclusion that the hull is locked into a speed range and whereas something like a Blaze just planes higher and faster the 300 can't, downwind at 20Kts I can't hike out the back hard enough to lift the bow.

What I really like about the 300 is that you can really throw it around, it's light and responsive in a way that the Contender and the Laser are not.

I think you need to try one, it might be too big a jump, but maybe not.
Hope that helps.


Posted By: Steve411
Date Posted: 19 Jul 17 at 11:02am
I have both a 300 and a D-Zero. Without doubt the 300 is a more difficult boat to sail, but a huge amount of fun. As Piglet says, there's a definite speed ceiling as in strong winds you have to back off downwind otherwise you won't survive. There's also a learning curve you have to get through, which is likely to last several months. Having said that, the 300 makes you a better sailor as the boat tells you if you're doing something wrong! It tells you quickly too. However, there's a reason I kept my 300 when I bought a D-Zero earlier this year - it is too rewarding to get rid of.

The D-Zero is also a great boat. It is much easier to sail downwind than the 300 as it has a nice flat planing section at the rear of the boat, like a skiff. This allows you to take more liberties with it than the 300 and not get wet. Interestingly, I find the D-Zero much more difficult to sail upwind. This may have something to do with the narrow beam and may have something to do with my (lack of) technique. The 300 has loads of power and loads of beam so upwind you pull everything in and the boat just powers away. I find much more body and tiller movement is required in the D-Zero.

As for the Phantom, I borrowed one for a very windy champs at Shoreham a few years ago (force 5 to 6), my first time in the boat. I weigh 81kg. I found it more of a struggle upwind until I figured out the settings needed. By the end of the weekend I was getting top 10 results. I think90kg might be better in a Phantom - I know most of the fleet is heavier but not all of them sit out all that hard. You have the same righting moment at 80 kilos sitting out hard than a heavier person does perching on the sidedeck. Like the D-Zero the Phantom is pretty stable downwind (but you do need to be aware of the low boom).


-------------
Steve B
RS300 411

https://www.facebook.com/groups/55859303803" rel="nofollow - RS300 Facebook page


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 19 Jul 17 at 11:05am
Originally posted by sargesail


And for me the line about the DZero that it's like a 300 but more forgiving is paradoxical. 

To put this in context, the sailing style is similar with the rig and the nice bow shape- it's responsive and clean; both great to windward, both stunning on a reach or dead downwind by the lee.  Once you get over the rolling motion, I don't actually think the RS300 is that hard to sail up to around 14 knots of breeze - I'm not saying I'd be competitive in one, especially with your current handicap (you lot have got too good!), but to just go sailing, it's not the demon it's been made out to be.

I know a few people who have owned/sailed both and all find similarities between both that are all-round positive.  The general vibe is the D-Zero is a little easier though... and would probably suit someone with less time more.

I described the D-Zero as a RS300 on its meds.... I love both boats, and quite frankly am seriously considering both with a view to buying one in the autumn.   


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 19 Jul 17 at 11:34am
Originally posted by Papa Smurf

]I have always lusted after a Phantom. They look very well done. Those on our water are well sailed. At 80kg's I have always thought myself too light for the boat.
Which brings me to the Solution. Another boat I like, but one that hasn't seemed to take off. The Aero and D-Zero look to have superceded it. ]


You sound like me, I've always wanted a Phantom but am to small I'm even thinking of getting one anyway and fitting a trapeze, but that's another fantasy, right now I'm firmly in the Solution = nicest boat of them all camp.

I also loved the D Zero enough to place a deposit and I am tempted by the Aero 7, but the Solution beats them both hands down with it's raising centreboard, and raking rig on the fly so no it hasn't been superceded just terribly marketed.

I'm not going to go into all the negatives of the others or of the Solution for that matter (it's far from perfect)but I would say it is the most Phantom like of all the single handers out there and was designed that way by former Phantom sailors.

Edit forgot the 300, I took one out once was lucky to get back alive, terrible boat nasty nasty nasty.

-------------



http://www.edgeactionsports.co.uk" rel="nofollow - Beanies, Bike Helmets & Snow accessories to clear


Posted By: piglet
Date Posted: 19 Jul 17 at 12:20pm
I'm sure the 300 speaks highly of you.


Posted By: Steve411
Date Posted: 19 Jul 17 at 12:22pm
Edit forgot the 300, I took one out once was lucky to get back alive, terrible boat nasty nasty nasty.

I suspect this might say more about iGRF than the 300. As with anything in life you get out what you're prepared to put in. We've already said there's a learning curve involved, but once you've got over that you get a very rewarding boat to sail.


-------------
Steve B
RS300 411

https://www.facebook.com/groups/55859303803" rel="nofollow - RS300 Facebook page


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 19 Jul 17 at 12:48pm
Originally posted by Steve411

Edit forgot the 300, I took one out once was lucky to get back alive, terrible boat nasty nasty nasty.

I suspect this might say more about iGRF than the 300. As with anything in life you get out what you're prepared to put in. We've already said there's a learning curve involved, but once you've got over that you get a very rewarding boat to sail.

and honestly speaking, the learning isn't even that steep compared to the 600, MPS, 700, Moth etc....  I don't think I capsized in the first few light wind sessions I sailed mine, but there's a definite step change once the breeze fills in firm.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 19 Jul 17 at 1:04pm
Its really a question of technique. If you've got what Bethwaite calls fast handling technique dialled properly then with 4 years experience a 300 will not be a great problem. If you haven't, then as well as getting used to a faster responding boat you've also got to unlearn your current reactions and learn new ones, and that's really rather challenging.


Posted By: piglet
Date Posted: 19 Jul 17 at 1:41pm
I haven't travelled with mine so I don't know what 'proper' 300 sailors would say, but I do think you need to be nimble and light on your feet in the 300, getting your body weight into the right place quickly seems to matter.
Papa Smurf, you didn't mention the Blaze in your list of possibles. Not my cup of tea but some people like them, fast on a reach and a more stable platform for sure.


Posted By: Steve411
Date Posted: 19 Jul 17 at 2:59pm
Originally posted by JimC

Its really a question of technique. If you've got what Bethwaite calls fast handling technique dialled properly then with 4 years experience a 300 will not be a great problem. If you haven't, then as well as getting used to a faster responding boat you've also got to unlearn your current reactions and learn new ones, and that's really rather challenging.

That's a fair point. I had to unlearn 20 years of downwind technique when I first got a 300. Had forgotten that.


-------------
Steve B
RS300 411

https://www.facebook.com/groups/55859303803" rel="nofollow - RS300 Facebook page


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 19 Jul 17 at 3:04pm
Originally posted by piglet

I'm sure the 300 speaks highly of you.

Why is it Australian then?

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http://www.edgeactionsports.co.uk" rel="nofollow - Beanies, Bike Helmets & Snow accessories to clear


Posted By: piglet
Date Posted: 19 Jul 17 at 4:07pm
Originally posted by Steve411

 
That's a fair point. I had to unlearn 20 years of downwind technique when I first got a 300. Had forgotten that.

Uh, that'll be why I'm struggling then.


Posted By: Steve411
Date Posted: 19 Jul 17 at 5:08pm
Originally posted by piglet

Originally posted by Steve411

 
That's a fair point. I had to unlearn 20 years of downwind technique when I first got a 300. Had forgotten that.

Uh, that'll be why I'm struggling then.

It's mainly learning to bear away sharply when you get a windward roll on. You need to learn to do it instinctively - it isn't quick enough if you have to think before you do it. LOL


-------------
Steve B
RS300 411

https://www.facebook.com/groups/55859303803" rel="nofollow - RS300 Facebook page


Posted By: Papa Smurf
Date Posted: 19 Jul 17 at 5:38pm
As it happens we have a couple of Phantom's, a 300, and someone with access to a Solution at the Club.

It looks like the beer is on me.


Posted By: Papa Smurf
Date Posted: 19 Jul 17 at 5:54pm
Originally posted by piglet

I haven't travelled with mine so I don't know what 'proper' 300 sailors would say, but I do think you need to be nimble and light on your feet in the 300, getting your body weight into the right place quickly seems to matter.
Papa Smurf, you didn't mention the Blaze in your list of possibles. Not my cup of tea but some people like them, fast on a reach and a more stable platform for sure.

The only 300 helm I know is a bit quick. He's probably a lot quick but I tend to lose sight of him too early to tell. He doesn't jump about a lot or look rushed, but he does moves early and just enough to keep it balanced and looking smooth.

He got wet a couple of times this weekend..

I've read about the Blaze but don't know anyone who has one or who has seen one.


Posted By: Papa Smurf
Date Posted: 19 Jul 17 at 6:03pm
Originally posted by JimC

Its really a question of technique. If you've got what Bethwaite calls fast handling technique...

A bit of light reading there for me I think. Should keep me going for a while.

Apart from the Eric Twiname book most of my references have been RYA texts or Laser specific.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 19 Jul 17 at 10:39pm
The Twiname book is required reading for any aspiring dinghy racer..... I have a Blaze and absolutely love it, it's fast, easy to sail and comfortable (for a certain definition of comfortable, it is a singlehanded dinghy....). It does require a certain level of agility and skill but not anything superhuman (I'm 64 and, while I returned to dinghies 9 years ago I've been out of competitive dinghy racing for a long time). I have only had my Blaze since November and have raced it at my inland club until a few weeks ago. Observations are :- 

1. The racks are unforgiving on a small lake, roll tacking like a L@ser is impossible and if you get caught out by a big gust you will dip one in the water and stop. 

2. It's a long way from side to side and that makes point one . The flat rocker and wide planing area don't help light wind performance. 

3. But the rig is sublime (even with the tin mast), very de-powerable and on the sea in a breeze the Blaze is just fantastic.


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 20 Jul 17 at 3:05pm
Originally posted by Papa Smurf

Originally posted by piglet

I haven't travelled with mine so I don't know what 'proper' 300 sailors would say, but I do think you need to be nimble and light on your feet in the 300, getting your body weight into the right place quickly seems to matter.
Papa Smurf, you didn't mention the Blaze in your list of possibles. Not my cup of tea but some people like them, fast on a reach and a more stable platform for sure.

The only 300 helm I know is a bit quick. He's probably a lot quick but I tend to lose sight of him too early to tell. He doesn't jump about a lot or look rushed, but he does moves early and just enough to keep it balanced and looking smooth.

He got wet a couple of times this weekend..

I've read about the Blaze but don't know anyone who has one or who has seen one.

I had a Blaze on a small inland puddle. It was a nice boat but not really suited to the water unless it was blowing old boots.

As Sam has said you cannot roll tack it too hard or you dip a wing so keeping it fairly flat is the way forward. It paid to generally ignore a shift unless it was significant and bang the corners (which never works on a small pit). 

I enjoyed mine a lot but I am now sailing something far more suited to my sailing style and the lake I am sailing on.


-------------
Paul
---------------------------
D-Zero GBR188
Ex Rooster 8.1 '11'
Ex Laser 167534
Ex Blaze 655


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 20 Jul 17 at 4:07pm
Nicely put Jeffers, I now have the Blaze down at the coast with the Spice and the Supernova up at the lake. However, I'm really finding it hard to make the 'nova go fast...... 10 mins behind the Lasers last week. TBF I have only raced it three times so I'll persevere at least until the Blaze comes home in November.

-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: piglet
Date Posted: 20 Jul 17 at 4:31pm
Spoons, how does the SuperSofa compare with Blaze?
I was trying to talk a club colleague into switching as he sometimes struggles getting the Blaze back up & going again in breeze.


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 20 Jul 17 at 4:39pm
Originally posted by piglet

Spoons, how does the SuperSofa compare with Blaze?
I was trying to talk a club colleague into switching as he sometimes struggles getting the Blaze back up & going again in breeze.

When I borrowed a SuperSofa when I was between boats I really didn't like it. It felt horrible to sail. Seemed to go quickly enough to keep me ahead of our local Laser fleet. I preferred the Blaze of the 2 but getting back in after a capsize was in through the transom or step round the front of the rack (if you were on the board).


-------------
Paul
---------------------------
D-Zero GBR188
Ex Rooster 8.1 '11'
Ex Laser 167534
Ex Blaze 655


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 20 Jul 17 at 5:05pm
Not capsized the 'nova yet, no issues with the Blaze though (but I haven't binned it in a proper breeze yet). To be fair to the 'nova I'll reserve judgment for the moment but first impressions are less favourable than the Blaze which I knew was a keeper on the first outing.

Our resident Supernova sailor makes his Mk2e go well enough to usually beat the Lasers over the water and often enough on handicap. Unfortunately he's racing the Wednesday series crewing his daughter's RS200 so I can't follow him to see how he does it :(


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: Papa Smurf
Date Posted: 20 Jul 17 at 7:08pm
From what you've said the Blaze sounds interesting and the Supernova less so.

All of my sailing this year will be on a small reservoir. No waves, but very changeable winds Probably not Blaze territory. To be honest I quite like moving the boat around me. Something about being part of the dynamic appeals to me.

Top of my wishlist would be the D-Zero. It's new, good looking, a little exotic. Purely based on reviews and image. Not likely to happen because it would involve the expense of a new or nearly new boat.

Next up would be the Phantom. More of a known quantity. They sail well on these waters. I really like them. However my weight, or lack of it, has me more or less convinced (changes daily sometimes, and everytime I see one I like) that they aren't for me.

The Solution I had lined up for this season was sold before I could buy it. There doesn't seem a lot of enthusiasm supporting them which is a little unsettling.

We don't run the courses for asymmetrics here so the RS100 is a bit of an non-runner.

The Aero didn't jump out at me for some reason. Looking at it I can see some good ideas and great touch's. It has grown on me the more I look at it. Again a newer boat at greater expense.

The older style, more traditional boats don't really appeal, even though that's where the best racing is here.

Then we have the 300. Exciting, rewarding and completely out of the blue. I wasn't looking for a 300. The boat found me.

I'm at the point where I have to accept that the new boats I like cost more, or choose not to care that I might be a little lighter than ideal for the Phantom.

But that 300 has caught my interest. It looks like fun.

Being sensible about boats is not good for you. There is too much passion involved.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 20 Jul 17 at 7:41pm
Originally posted by Papa Smurf


But that 300 has caught my interest. It looks like fun.



Indeed it does.
















But then of course there are some very strange 'special' people who sail them.


-------------



http://www.edgeactionsports.co.uk" rel="nofollow - Beanies, Bike Helmets & Snow accessories to clear


Posted By: Papa Smurf
Date Posted: 20 Jul 17 at 8:10pm
Ahh. Yes. I take your point


The Phantom is a very nice boat. And I do like pies.






Try before you buy seems the way to go.


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 20 Jul 17 at 10:10pm
BTW. iGRF not being able to sail a boat and it being a bad boat are not always the same thing.

FWIW. I had one when they first came along, like you quite early after a few Laser seasons. Really not so bad as some make out, capsize recovery a doddle, gybe all day long up to medium breeze anyway, I was over-horsed in truth with a big rig (2nd hand so got what was about) @ 5ft 4in & <12st, especially where I was at sea. I gave up on it because I struggled to tack reliably in waves and sailing out of a tight and strongly tidal harbour, I thought one day I'd get it wrong in the wrong place. 
I have tried to be honest in relating my experience with it; same boat with same experience but on a lake and I reckon I'd have kept it for a long while.  


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 20 Jul 17 at 11:24pm
When your young, have plenty of time and enthusiasm to beat every challenge, then fine go for difficult challenges.. I'm not young, my time now is strictly limited, every year some damn glitch happens to the running gear, so my opinion gets swayed by that, if something is obviously difficult it quickly gets bunged into the wastebasket by the door marked too difficult to bother with.
When I first started this Lark it took me an entire Summer of refusing to be beaten by a stupid boat, 18 capsizes I recall in one race, but it wasn't going to beat me so I soldiered on, never having been beaten ever by anything I've decided to turn my hand to, I did even manage to win a couple of races in light weather in it, but then went on a training course where it became very clear from watching the 'good guys' and their body language when faced with a stiff breeze, there was never going to be a snowballs chance in hell for me at my build to cope with so many fixed issues,ever since then I'm fairly quick to spot what is and isn't possible.
It took me one beat and a wild run back to the jetty to put that 300 in the bin by the door, I'll not bother to step in one ever again, pointless exercise for me and there are dozens of boats I've yet to try and not many years left to do it.

-------------



http://www.edgeactionsports.co.uk" rel="nofollow - Beanies, Bike Helmets & Snow accessories to clear


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 21 Jul 17 at 7:19am
Thanks iGRF, a nice and logical reply with your sensible head on. Handshake



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