Print Page | Close Window

Requesting Redress

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12785
Printed Date: 23 Oct 17 at 10:58am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Requesting Redress
Posted By: ClubRacer
Subject: Requesting Redress
Date Posted: 08 Jul 17 at 8:26pm
I had a situation today where I could have requested redress as they got the p flag stuck to the top of the mast when in sequence and did the start anyway, meaning I missed the start by a good 30 seconds as I was waiting for the P to come down to sync my watch.

I ended up finishing  in a good position in the race and doubt very much I'l top that result in the rest of the series and decided not to have protested 

I was the only boat effected by the stuck p flag so I would presume if I had won the protest I would have been given average score for the series in which I would be given a worse result than I actually got

My question is if I had won the redress would my score be removed and given a worse average score and what else is there they could offer me from the redress which would actually have benefited me (I would presume only to abandon the race but would they do that for just a single boat) 

Bare in mind this is just a club race 



Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 08 Jul 17 at 8:53pm
64.2 Decisions on Redress
When the protest committee decides that a boat is entitled to redress
under rule 62, it shall make as fair an arrangement as possible for all
boats affected, whether or not they asked for redress. This may be to
adjust the scoring (see rule A10 for some examples) or finishing
times of boats, to abandon the race, to let the results stand or to make
some other arrangement. When in doubt about the facts or probable
results of any arrangement for the race or series, especially before
abandoning the race, the protest committee shall take evidence from
appropriate sources.

The PC has a pretty free hand to do whatever they consider is fairest for everyone. That includes giving a boat any point score they think is appropriate, but also includes leaving the results unchanged.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 08 Jul 17 at 10:22pm
In club racing, the hoot is far more likely to be accurate than the flag, whatever the rules say, especially if the race box is short staffed. I tend to go by what the RO means to do, rather than by what actually is done, and generally it works out OK.

-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 09 Jul 17 at 2:59pm
Originally posted by ClubRacer

I had a situation today where I could have requested redress as they got the p flag stuck to the top of the mast when in sequence and did the start anyway, meaning I missed the start by a good 30 seconds as I was waiting for the P to come down to sync my watch.

Depending on the state of the protest committee's digestion on any one day, you might be lucky to get anything out of that one:  you had two opportunities to set your watch:  the warning signal and the hoist of the preparatory signal.  What were you doing in the final minute futzing around with your watch? <sarcy rhetorical question off>.

I ended up finishing  in a good position in the race and doubt very much I'l top that result in the rest of the series and decided not to have protested 

I was the only boat effected by the stuck p flag so I would presume if I had won the protest I would have been given average score for the series in which I would be given a worse result than I actually got

As JimC has explained, average points is not automatic.

My question is if I had won the redress would my score be removed and given a worse average score and what else is there they could offer me from the redress which would actually have benefited me (I would presume only to abandon the race but would they do that for just a single boat)

For the protest committee to conclude you are entitled to redress they have to conclude (rule 62.1):
  • There was an improper action or omission by the race committee,
  • that caused your score or place to be made worse
  • through no fault of your own.
Once they've turned their minds to the worsening of your score, and hopefully, by how much, they should be unlikely to give you 'redress' that made your score worse still.

But as JimC sometimes says, there's no accounting for what race officials might do.

Bare in mind this is just a club race 


Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 09 Jul 17 at 5:19pm
Depending on the state of the protest committee's digestion on any one day, you might be lucky to get anything out of that one:  you had two opportunities to set your watch:  the warning signal and the hoist of the preparatory signal.  What were you doing in the final minute futzing around with your watch? <sarcy rhetorical question off>.
 
Rule 26 states;

26.
 STARTING RACES
 Races shall be started by using the following signals. Times shall be taken from the visual signals; the absence of a sound signal shall be disregarded.

1 Preparatory flag removed One long One minute



lack of prep flag down is a direct breach of rule 26. Wouldn't this be clear cut in a protest hearing?


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 09 Jul 17 at 6:00pm
Originally posted by ClubRacer

Wouldn't this be clear cut in a protest hearing?

Oh it would be clear cut enough that the RC made an error. But to get redress you have to convince the PC that not only did the RC make a mistake, but also that you were disadvantaged through no fault of your own. They might well conclude that if you'd been paying attention to *all* the signals you'd have known what was going on, especially as everyone else managed to start OK.


Posted By: GML
Date Posted: 09 Jul 17 at 10:19pm
Originally posted by ClubRacer

My question is if I had won the redress would my score be removed and given a worse average score and what else is there they could offer me from the redress which would actually have benefited me (I would presume only to abandon the race but would they do that for just a single boat)

Best practice when giving average points as redress to a boat that has finished a race is for the protest committee to say something like "Average points in accordance with A10(a) but not worse than X points" where X is the number of points you got for your actual finishing position in the race.


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 10 Jul 17 at 3:08am
Originally posted by GML

Originally posted by ClubRacer

My question is if I had won the redress would my score be removed and given a worse average score and what else is there they could offer me from the redress which would actually have benefited me (I would presume only to abandon the race but would they do that for just a single boat)

Best practice when giving average points as redress to a boat that has finished a race is for the protest committee to say something like "Average points in accordance with A10(a) but not worse than X points" where X is the number of points you got for your actual finishing position in the race.

Would you care to cite some authoritative document?


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 10 Jul 17 at 9:47am
Personally if you missed the 2 previous signals then the 'no fault of your own' bit falls over. Were I on the PC I would be asking that question of you.

Mistakes happen, we all know what the rules say and perhaps the RO should have abandoned the sequence but in a club race was it necessary?


-------------
Paul
---------------------------
D-Zero GBR188
Ex Rooster 8.1 '11'
Ex Laser 167534
Ex Blaze 655


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 10 Jul 17 at 10:22am
Originally posted by jeffers

Personally if you missed the 2 previous signals then the 'no fault of your own' bit falls over. Were I on the PC I would be asking that question of you.

Mistakes happen, we all know what the rules say and perhaps the RO should have abandoned the sequence but in a club race was it necessary?
Yes it was.

AP is the race officers' friend, and ever RO should be able to run an AP sequence smoothly and quickly.

There's no excuse for letting a clearly improper starting sequence ride.

If only to avoid the problem with fault of boat's own.


Posted By: GML
Date Posted: 10 Jul 17 at 11:06am
Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by GML

Best practice when giving average points as redress to a boat that has finished a race is for the protest committee to say something like "Average points in accordance with A10(a) but not worse than X points" where X is the number of points you got for your actual finishing position in the race.

Would you care to cite some authoritative document?

Whilst accepting that it is not binding in all situations, I would refer the honourable gentleman to paragraph 6.3 of Section B of the World Sailing Jury Policies, February 2017 ( http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/JuryPoliciesFebruary2017-%5b22447%5d.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/JuryPoliciesFebruary2017-[22447].pdf ):

6.3 In all cases in which average points will be awarded to a boat that has a finishing position, add ‘but no worse than N’ (where N is the boat’s finishing position).


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 10 Jul 17 at 11:12am
Thank you.

Can't argue with that.


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 10 Jul 17 at 1:41pm
Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by jeffers

Personally if you missed the 2 previous signals then the 'no fault of your own' bit falls over. Were I on the PC I would be asking that question of you.

Mistakes happen, we all know what the rules say and perhaps the RO should have abandoned the sequence but in a club race was it necessary?
Yes it was.

AP is the race officers' friend, and ever RO should be able to run an AP sequence smoothly and quickly.

There's no excuse for letting a clearly improper starting sequence ride.

If only to avoid the problem with fault of boat's own.

I appreciate what you are saying there but a lot of club ROs are volunteers. if you got really anal about something like this you would find your volunteer list would shrink considerably and club racing would be in jeapordy.

The OP should have chucked in a request for redress and seen what the PC came back with. there was clearly a but of fault on both sides. The OP for missing the 2 previous signals and the RO for not abandoning the start once the flag had got stuck.

There seems to be little appetite at club level for training to be an RO with most people wanting to 'wing it' on the day. Most club level racing is fairly laid back even if the on the water action is competitive (just my experience as opposed to the letter of the law).


-------------
Paul
---------------------------
D-Zero GBR188
Ex Rooster 8.1 '11'
Ex Laser 167534
Ex Blaze 655


Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 10 Jul 17 at 6:17pm
in this situation it was the most prestigious race series of the club calendar and it so happened I wasn't going to be competitive due to 1 reason or another and decided I would seek clarification over a few points on here than cause issues within the club. As per the comment about not bringing up issues like this to prevent losing volunteers; where do you draw the line between losing volunteers because they don't wont tolerate criticism or losing competitors because the sailing is sh*t


The whole point of those 3 signals is to indicate how long is left until a start otherwise we would only have 1, even if i had have synced my watch at the 5 minute and then inside the 1 minute mark realized the P flag was still up I could still have aborted the start and assumed my watch was wrong. Had it been anything but a P flag you certainly would abandon your start than risking taking a penalty 

What did we rely on before waterproof watches?


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 10 Jul 17 at 7:09pm
Stopwatches on a lanyard round one's neck, I seem to remember.

The measured candle on the foredeck was less successful.

-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 10 Jul 17 at 10:22pm
What did we rely on before waterproof watches?

Hourglasses, of course. Possibly a little limited in resolution.


-------------
Peter
Ex Cont 707
Laser 189635
DY 59


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 11 Jul 17 at 12:37am
Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by Brass

[QUOTE=jeffers]
AP is the race officers' friend, and every RO should be able to run an AP sequence smoothly and quickly.

There's no excuse for letting a clearly improper starting sequence ride.
I appreciate what you are saying there but a lot of club ROs are volunteers. if you got really anal about something like this you would find your volunteer list would shrink considerably and club racing would be in jeopardy.

I don't think expecting competent performance by race officials is 'getting really anal', but my post:
  •  was, to a degree, 'aspirational', rather than suggesting a night of the long knives against all poorly performing volunteer race officers;  and
  • was also intended to make the point that, of all the errors that a race office can make:  poor course selection, untrue lines/legs etc, bungled starting sequences are important ones that should not be let ride.




Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 11 Jul 17 at 12:39am
Originally posted by ClubRacer

in this situation it was the most prestigious race series of the club calendar and it so happened I wasn't going to be competitive due to 1 reason or another and decided I would seek clarification over a few points on here than cause issues within the club. As per the comment about not bringing up issues like this to prevent losing volunteers; where do you draw the line between losing volunteers because they don't wont tolerate criticism or losing competitors because the sailing is sh*t.

To be fair. O don't think jeffers was saying 'don't bring it up':  he was saying 'don't get really anal about it'.  I can agree with that.

I also agree that stating standards, and providing civil feedback and critique is a good way of maintaining or improving standards.

A bit of leadership helps.  At a couple of RO seminars I have run, it's amazing what a good turn up there has been when one of the club flag officers attends.

The whole point of those 3 signals is to indicate how long is left until a start

That's not quite right.  In addition to providing multiple opportunities to synchronise time, the Preparatory signal signals the start of racing, and the One Minute Signal signals the start of the one minute period for I, Z, U and Black flag starts.

otherwise we would only have 1, even if i had have synced my watch at the 5 minute and then inside the 1 minute mark realized the P flag was still up I could still have aborted the start and assumed my watch was wrong. Had it been anything but a P flag you certainly would abandon your start than risking taking a penalty 

What did we rely on before waterproof watches?

All sorts of weird and wonderfully complex signalling systems, with three red flags, falling on consecutive minutes, flashing lights etc etc:  Just boundless opportunities for race committee stuff ups.



Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 11 Jul 17 at 7:09am
I was RO a couple of months ago, I had started race, all in correct sequence, boats away, had to call them back, been going about 2 minutes, abuse level unbelievable, only a club race.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 11 Jul 17 at 7:32am
Why the recall?

-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 11 Jul 17 at 9:41am
Originally posted by Brass

of all the errors that a race office can make:  poor course selection, untrue lines/legs etc,

Given the wind variation on a typical British inland summer's day, if we expected the RO to deliver unbiased lines for the whole of an typical club multi-start sequence, the AP would be worn out in weeks and scarcely a race would get away. You have to tailor things to your own fleet's expectations, but endless line resets and APs rarely go down well. I venture to suggest one of the worst of RC vices, in our conditions, is to submit the fleet to endless restarts.

Its one of the reasons why everyone should take a turn on the committee boat. Fewer people are liable to demand an unachievable perfection if they know it will be demanded of them next week...


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 11 Jul 17 at 9:59am
Rupert,
Didn't notice competitor who race was about was still on bank.


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 11 Jul 17 at 10:14am
Originally posted by 423zero

Rupert,
Didn't notice competitor who race was about was still on bank.

Is that really a reason to recall? 

I know a fair few clubs are a bit lax on the must be afloat before the prep rule (especially when the start line is seconds from the bank) but it is still down to them to make sure they are there.


-------------
Paul
---------------------------
D-Zero GBR188
Ex Rooster 8.1 '11'
Ex Laser 167534
Ex Blaze 655


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 11 Jul 17 at 10:18am
Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by Brass

[QUOTE=jeffers]
AP is the race officers' friend, and every RO should be able to run an AP sequence smoothly and quickly.

There's no excuse for letting a clearly improper starting sequence ride.
I appreciate what you are saying there but a lot of club ROs are volunteers. if you got really anal about something like this you would find your volunteer list would shrink considerably and club racing would be in jeopardy.

I don't think expecting competent performance by race officials is 'getting really anal', but my post:
  •  was, to a degree, 'aspirational', rather than suggesting a night of the long knives against all poorly performing volunteer race officers;  and
  • was also intended to make the point that, of all the errors that a race office can make:  poor course selection, untrue lines/legs etc, bungled starting sequences are important ones that should not be let ride.



Of course, we have lost a fair few RO volunteers though through criticism levelled at them by people in the race (even though said critics were doing the same things on their duties over the years). On the whole it works OK and offering assistance with things like course setting and the like is usually well received and pre-empts many problems.


-------------
Paul
---------------------------
D-Zero GBR188
Ex Rooster 8.1 '11'
Ex Laser 167534
Ex Blaze 655


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 11 Jul 17 at 1:02pm
Jeffers,
He was guest racer, he hadn't even launched.



Print Page | Close Window

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz - http://www.webwizguide.com